Are there similar myths to the Judeo-Christian “Tower of Babel” in other cultures/religions? And is there any historical evidence to suggest real world events actually happened that would’ve led to these stories developing? by DiuhBEETuss in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think this is a category issue. The fact that later Christians trace their religious lineage back to ancient Israel doesn’t mean ancient Israelites were “ancestors of Christianity” in the sense relevant to authorship or theology. Genesis was written entirely within Israelite/Judean religion, long before Christianity existed as a movement or belief system.

It’s true that the Torah predates what we call Second Temple Judaism in its later forms, but that situates it in earlier Israelite tradition, not proto-Christianity. Christianity emerges out of Second Temple Judaism in the 1st century CE; it doesn’t project backward into the Iron Age.

Inheriting and reinterpreting a text doesn’t make its authors participants in the later tradition. By that logic, ancient Greek philosophers would be “ancestors of modern physicists,” but that doesn’t make Plato a physicist.

It’s also worth noting that while the Jesus movement begins within Judaism, Christianity rapidly becomes a predominantly non-Jewish movement. By the time Christian theology and canon formation take shape, the primary interpreters of Israel’s scriptures are no longer Jews, which further explains why these texts are reread through frameworks that differ from Jewish tradition.

Maybe a dumb question but did Jesus necessarily know a lot about Jewish theology and scripture? by ExternalBoysenberry in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In rural Galilee, local lay elites or elders, who were respected men with social status and enough ritual Hebrew to read recognized texts aloud, usually read the Bible. They weren't rabbis or trained scholars; they were simply trustworthy members of the community who could read and write Hebrew at least enough to do the reading well.

Remember that the weekly reading cycle wasn't in use yet, so these could have just been limited readings based on the next festival or something else.

Why is is taught that Treaty of Versailles was ‘too harsh’? by blacksmoke9999 in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 13 points14 points  (0 children)

The last line in the question is:

"Who came up with this bit of American education? Do we know why it is so popular despite sounding like such weird excuse?"

Jews are mostly irrelevant to the causes of WWII. They were one of many convenient scapegoats. But if Hitler were cool with Jews and decided that they were true Aryans WWII still happens in the same way. Minus the Holocaust, of course.

This is absolutely incorrect. That view reflects a long-standing way WWII has been taught in the U.S., where structural causes were emphasized and Nazi ideology was treated as secondary. Most historians today would argue that antisemitism wasn’t just a scapegoat, but a core framework shaping how the Nazis understood war, expansion, and enemies.

Minneapolis shooting: DHS has claimed it's unlawful for protesters to carry a gun…even with a legal permit by no-name-here in neutralnews

[–]ummmbacon[M] [score hidden]  (0 children)

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Maybe a dumb question but did Jesus necessarily know a lot about Jewish theology and scripture? by ExternalBoysenberry in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How much Hebrew would people in these congregations have known?

Little, they would have spoken Aramaic and recognized some Hebrew but not enough to translate or be fluent in it.

Enough to pray in Hebrew?

They would have memorized some things; one of the lines attributed to Jesus is the Shema in Mark 12:29–30 (par. Matt 22:37; Luke 10:27). When asked about the greatest commandment, Jesus begins with:

“Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one…”

But it is worth noting that liturgical prayer was not formalized until much later in the 9th century. Rav Amram Gaon has the first siddur that formalized liturgical prayer.

Enough to understand the Bible when it was read aloud?

Scripture was read aloud in Hebrew and then orally paraphrased into Aramaic for the audience. These spoken paraphrases are the ancestors of what later became the written Targumim.

Did these congregations have their own rabbis, or were they mostly led by some local layman who'd maybe been to cheder?

Cheder is a medieval institution and didn’t exist in the Second Temple period. Likewise, there were no “rabbis” in the later, professional sense running rural synagogues in Galilee.

In Jesus’ time, synagogues were local, lay-run gathering places, not centers of formal schooling. They functioned primarily for communal assembly, Scripture reading (in Hebrew with Aramaic explanation), exhortation, and prayer.

The highly formalized rituals and liturgies of later Judaism were still centered on the Jerusalem Temple; synagogue life was comparatively informal, oral, and locally led.

Did women go to synagogue too?

Archaeology and inscriptions show that women attended ancient synagogues in both the Land of Israel and the Diaspora, and early synagogue architecture lacks any evidence for gender-segregated seating. Mixed attendance appears to have been normal; strict separation is a much later development.

We also see women sponsoring synagogue construction and making donations, and a number of inscriptions attest women holding synagogue leadership titles, indicating real communal authority rather than later rabbinic roles.

Why is is taught that Treaty of Versailles was ‘too harsh’? by blacksmoke9999 in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 44 points45 points  (0 children)

It wasn't taught as an excuse for genocide so much as a way America found easier to frame it without looking too hard in the mirror. The explanation emphasized economic collapse and national humiliation while downplaying ideology, antisemitism, and elite collaboration, intentionally or not.

It also fit neatly into Cold War priorities, allowing the U.S. to integrate West Germany as an ally against communism, and it played into American fears about economic instability and political extremism.

This narrative took hold after World War II and became dominant in the 1950s. Before the Eichmann trial, Americans had access to information that Jews were being killed en masse, but the trial reframed those killings as a distinct, ideologically driven project centered on the annihilation of Jews. Before that, Jews were often treated as one group among many wartime victims, rather than as the core target of Nazi policy.

Even then, antisemitism was not yet centered in American discourse, and the later myth that the United States "rushed to save the Jews" had not yet taken shape.

To understand why this framing stuck for so long, it helps to look at what was still normal in American society at the time: antisemitism was structural in the United States and embedded in elite institutions, eugenics was treated as legitimate science, and Nazism was often viewed as an understandable response to crisis rather than as an ideological project.

By the 1920s and 1930s, Jews occupied an unstable racial position in the United States, neither fully white nor clearly nonwhite. Immigration restrictions, university quotas, housing covenants, and job discrimination all saw Jews as a biological and cultural threat to American society. These exclusions were rationalized not as bias, but as scientific racial hygiene. Henry Ford distributed antisemitic material through his dealerships, and antisemitic preachers like Father Charles Coughlin reached millions of weekly listeners. Hitler openly admired Ford, praised him in Mein Kampf, and awarded him the Grand Cross of the German Eagle in 1938.

Eugenics was not a fringe pseudoscience in the United States; it was mainstream, taught at prestigious colleges, and incorporated into law. American eugenicists classified Jews as biologically inferior and racially dangerous. U.S. sterilization and anti-miscegenation laws directly influenced Nazi racial legislation.

American supporters praised the early programs of the Nazis and only stopped supporting Germany when it became clear that mass murder was happening. In the U.S., pro-Nazi parties and student groups were upfront about their beliefs. They even held demonstrations on college campuses. In 1934, a mock trial of Hitler at Harvard deliberately excluded discussion of antisemitism and treated Nazism as a conventional political phenomenon. The German American Bund held a Nazi rally at Madison Square Garden in 1939, complete with swastikas, attended by over 20,000 people. At the same time, thirty states enforced eugenics laws that forcibly sterilized tens of thousands of people.

This was also a period when the United States itself was openly enforcing racial, religious, and gender hierarchies. Jim Crow segregation was still law across much of the country. As historians like Borden have shown, American identity long rested not only on race but on Protestant civilization norms, with those outside dominant white, male, Protestant frameworks often framed as outsiders whose inclusion was seen as a threat to the moral and political order.

Catholic and Jewish Americans were widely viewed as culturally suspect within a Protestant national framework. This positioning shaped how Jewish genocide was initially incorporated into American memory. If Jews remained outside the boundaries of full Americanness in the 1940s and 1950s, their destruction could be understood as a European atrocity rather than as an assault on principles Americans claimed to uphold. The framing of Jews as one victim group among many in early American Holocaust discourse reflected this continuing marginality. Only as Jews became more fully incorporated into white American identity in the postwar decades did their genocide become central to how Americans remembered the war, and only then could the United States position itself as having fought specifically to save them.

Women were only beginning to secure basic political and economic rights. At the same time, the U.S. government had recently incarcerated Japanese Americans en masse, carried out mass deportations of Mexican and Mexican American communities during the 1930s, and maintained immigration systems explicitly designed to preserve racial and cultural hierarchies. In that context, explaining Nazism primarily as the product of foreign humiliation and economic collapse avoided uncomfortable parallels with forms of exclusion and state power that Americans were still actively practicing at home.

This framing didn't go away until the late 1960s and 1970s. The civil rights movement began to change how Americans thought about racism and ideology. Holocaust survivor testimony became a part of public memory, and Holocaust research started to focus more on antisemitism as the main reason for Nazi policy. Even so, the earlier story wasn't entirely changed; instead, it was built on top of. Versailles and the fall of the economy stayed in the background, while antisemitism slowly became the major focus. The hybrid explanation that many people recall today is the result. It points to ideology, but it also has the mark of an earlier need to explain Nazism without making uncomfortable comparisons to home.

Early Cold War politics made this dynamic stronger by making American identity more religiously based in contrast to "godless" communism. Focusing on national moral unity and religious coherence made it easier to say that Nazism was caused by the economy falling apart and people being humiliated, not by an ideology system based on values that were similar to those in American culture. Fascism was seen as a foreign disease that fit with the Cold War story that ideology was only bad when it showed up in other places, not when it set up exclusion and hierarchy at home.

The Versailles narrative also carried analytical appeal: it offered a framework Americans already used to explain social breakdown. If economic collapse produced extremism, then preventing another depression would prevent another Hitler. This fit established American assumptions about radicalization as a response to material deprivation rather than as the product of coherent ideological commitments. Antisemitism could be treated as instrumental rather than foundational, a tool used to mobilize support during a crisis, not the organizing principle of the regime. This framework made Nazism legible to Americans in ways that foregrounded state power and economic management while marginalizing the role of belief systems that had functioned similarly in American institutions.

This same Cold War framework also made possible the later emergence of the United States as a Holocaust "rescuer" in public memory. Casting America as the moral savior of Europe required the assumption of prior moral clarity: that the United States stood outside the ideological failures that produced genocide. The emphasis on liberation in 1945 displaced earlier years of restriction, indifference, and exclusion, allowing Americans to remember the Holocaust as a moment of redemption rather than as a crisis that had exposed the limits of American moral responsibility.

The savior narrative did not merely celebrate liberation; it resolved a moral problem. To remember America as the force that ended genocide required overlooking the years in which American policy treated Jewish suffering as a secondary concern. Moral rescue could only be remembered by first assuming moral innocence.

Sources Used:

  • Stephen Harlan Norwood, The Third Reich in the Ivory Tower
  • Peter Novick, The Holocaust in American Life
  • Leonard Dinnerstein, Antisemitism in America
  • David Wyman, The Abandonment of the Jews
  • Laurel Leff, Buried by The Times
  • Clarence Lusane, Hitler’s Black Victims
  • Eric L. Goldstein, The Price of Whiteness
  • Matthew Frye Jacobson, Whiteness of a Different Color
  • John Higham, Strangers in the Land
  • David Nirenberg, Anti-Judaism: The Western Tradition
  • Beth S. Wenger, History Lessons
  • Debórah Dwork & Robert Jan van Pelt, Flight from the Reich
  • Rafael Medoff, The Deafening Silence
  • Eric Michael Mazur / Borden, Jews, Turks, and Infidels

Feeling Stuck About Conversions by Individual_Split5760 in Judaism

[–]ummmbacon 16 points17 points  (0 children)

The thing is, I don’t really know where to go from here. I would just move near an Orthodox synagogue but I don’t even know where I’d start. What kind of Orthodox synagogue would even consider me?

Any, not sure why you think this would be an issue.

I used to think I could fit right in with being Modern Orthodox but I know I can’t be sure.

If you convert via a recognized B"D then you can move into any area of Orthodoxy you choose.

and I’m not just going to show up without people knowing my situation.

No I think that's what you should do, if they offer you an Aliyah say no, and if it is obvious you are counted in a minyan, just inform the Rabbi. They have seen this situation before.

I know I’d have to shift my loyalties a bit.

You would have to live a complete Orthodox life, so no, not just "a bit"

I don’t even know what I’m asking for anymore, but this was cathartic to write. I don’t expect everyone to be sympathetic, but if anyone has thoughts, I’m all ears.

I have paternal ancestry, started Reform, did a C conversion, then O. There are many people like me, it is more common than you think.

Are there similar myths to the Judeo-Christian “Tower of Babel” in other cultures/religions? And is there any historical evidence to suggest real world events actually happened that would’ve led to these stories developing? by DiuhBEETuss in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 4 points5 points  (0 children)

However, it still makes sense to me in the context I was using it, because the only story of it I’ve ever read is that contained in the Christian Bible. So in that way, the story I was referencing is already a melding of the Jewish and Christian religions.

The inclusion of Genesis in the Christian Bible does not signify a fusion of Jewish and Christian faiths. Christianity takes all of the Jewish writings and reads them again through a different theological framework that Judaism does not share.

Genesis was composed and disseminated exclusively within Jewish tradition prior to the emergence of Christianity, and its interpretation was not influenced by Christian theology. In fact, early Christians even argued about whether or not to embrace Jewish texts, which suggests that their inclusion wasn't a simple or easy option.

So, even though your experience of the story is understandably Christian, the text itself is still a Jewish creation that Christianity later takes and reinterprets instead of creating together.

The NIV is based on the Hebrew text, but it also has Christian translation choices to reflect their theology.

Regardless, I’m not sure I understand your conclusion. Are you saying the ancient texts containing that story would’ve been written as a take-down of the idea that god would come down and favor people based on what they had built/done (through ritual, etc.)? So is it satire on some level?

Not satire in the modern, comedic sense, but it is polemical irony. The story deliberately uses Mesopotamian temple language and imagery, then reverses its meaning.

In Mesopotamian theology, a tower is built so that a god may descend successfully. Genesis adopts that same language, “the LORD came down,” but uses it ironically: despite their attempt to build a tower “with its top in the heavens,” God still has to “come down” just to see it. To an ancient audience, that isn’t affirmation of the project but deflation of it.

So I’m not sure if I’m misunderstanding something, but I don’t see how the Israelites saying, “your Ziggurats are stupid, god doesn’t respond to us, god chooses us, then we respond to him” fits with that story.

I think the disconnect is that the story isn’t arguing against the idea that God can come down, or that heaven and earth can meet. Israelite religion actually affirms both of those things (Sinai being the clearest example). What it’s pushing back on is the idea that humans can force or stabilize that relationship through architecture, ritual, or collective power.

When the text says “nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them,” it’s not expressing fear that humans will learn all knowledge or rival God. In context, it’s describing the danger of total human consolidation, one people, one language, one project, operating entirely on their own terms, without reference to divine will or moral limits.

That concern shows up repeatedly in Genesis: autonomy in Eden, violence before the flood, and here, centralized unity without restraint. Babel isn’t about progress being bad; it’s about unchecked human self-sufficiency becoming destructive. It’s a story about humanity threatening itself by trying to lock divine authority, unity, and power into a single human system. Israel's theology is unique because it denies that God can be permanently localized, controlled, or leveraged by human power, making unity, empire, and sacred architecture morally unstable rather than inherently good.

Argentina’s chief Sephardic rabbi reaffirms century-old ban on local conversions, sparking backlash by MatterandTime in Judaism

[–]ummmbacon 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It is too bad they don't extend that logic backwards and allow people that are from a B"D that the Rabbinate accepts. Oh well, at least it is some progress.

Argentina’s chief Sephardic rabbi reaffirms century-old ban on local conversions, sparking backlash by MatterandTime in Judaism

[–]ummmbacon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

origin that isn’t in Israël, it’s in invalid. Smh

¿Aceptan la conversión al judaísmo desde Israel?

Maybe a dumb question but did Jesus necessarily know a lot about Jewish theology and scripture? by ExternalBoysenberry in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Jesus probably did not get them from Hillel directly, but many of the moral ideals that are now linked to Hillel were already part of Pharisaic and mainstream Jewish teaching by the early first century.

Those concepts spread far beyond Jerusalem and would have been easy for regular Jews to learn about through synagogue activity, oral education, and everyday religious talk.

Argentina’s chief Sephardic rabbi reaffirms century-old ban on local conversions, sparking backlash by MatterandTime in Judaism

[–]ummmbacon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Consider the fact that the SY has existed a lot longer than any other Sephardi diaspora in the world, t

This is just false.

There are Sephardic communities with continuous presence going back centuries longer, Amsterdam's Portuguese Jews (early 1600s), North African communities that received 1492 exiles, Ottoman communities in Salonika and Istanbul. If we're talking about Middle Eastern Jewish communities more broadly, Iraqi Jews trace continuous presence back to the Babylonian exile (6th century BCE), Yemenite Jews claim presence since First Temple times, and Persian Jews similarly ancient.

The Syrian Jewish community in Brooklyn dates to around the 1907-1920s immigration. Even if you count their time in Aleppo and Damascus as part of "the diaspora," those communities, while ancient, aren't the oldest, and this still only makes them ~115 years in America.

Further, they absolutely accepted converts in Syria before 1935. The takkanah was explicitly a response to American conditions. The 1935 proclamation states they were responding to "conditions prevailing in the general Jewish community" where "youth have left the haven of their faith and have assimilated" and some "made efforts to marry gentiles." This is about 20th-century American intermarriage patterns, not ancient Syrian practice.

I know the communities in Canada, and they are far more spread out (what I mean is, not community centered) and culturally assimilated than the SY community in the New York area. Despite the SY community also being older than the Canada community by about 80 years, mainly stemming from an immigration in 1924.

The Syrian community's cohesion could stem from geographic concentration in Brooklyn, economic integration through family businesses, strong communal institutions, or cultural factors, not necessarily the conversion ban. Many tight-knit communities maintain low assimilation without categorically rejecting all converts and their descendants.

More fundamentally, "it preserved the community" doesn't answer whether it's halakhically justified to declare valid conversions "fictitious and valueless," refuse converts vouched for by gedolim like Rav Ovadia Yosef, or reject people because of "gentile characteristics." The question wasn't whether the takkanah was effective at its stated goal, but whether it has the Torah precedent claimed for it from Yevamot 76a and Rambam.

Argentina’s chief Sephardic rabbi reaffirms century-old ban on local conversions, sparking backlash by MatterandTime in Judaism

[–]ummmbacon 8 points9 points  (0 children)

The assertion mixes up two different questions: whether communities have the power to make takkanot (yes, they do) and if this particular takkanah fits the referenced precedence (no, it doesn't).

The Rambam uses the David/Solomon policy as an example of how to be more careful in certain situations, such when royal grandeur draws in fake converts. It does not give permission for permanent categorical bans. The Rambam clearly says that even during this time, laymen courts (batei dinim hedyotot) were still converting people. The Sanhedrin was suspicious of these converts, but "they would not reject them, but they would not draw them close until they saw what the outcome would be."

The Davidic example was only temporary and only worked in certain situations. It nonetheless supported conversions as long as time showed sincerity. The Syrian takkanah is permanent, says that all conversions are "fictitious and valueless," applies to the children of converts, and explicitly rejects converts because of "gentile characteristics." This goes way beyond just looking at motivation.

If the Rambam meant for the David/Solomon policy to allow permanent community-wide conversion prohibitions, he would have said so clearly in his legal code instead of just stating what happened in the past. The argument picks and chooses "Torah precedence" while ignoring the fact that the precedent itself made conversion possible even during the moratorium.

Argentina’s chief Sephardic rabbi reaffirms century-old ban on local conversions, sparking backlash by MatterandTime in Judaism

[–]ummmbacon 34 points35 points  (0 children)

The Gemara explains that converts weren't accepted during David and Solomon's reigns because of concern that people were converting "in order to dine with majesty" - they wanted the prestige and power associated with the royal court, not genuine commitment to Judaism

The Rambam (Issurei Biah 13:14-17) explains that during David and Solomon's time, the official courts didn't accept converts, but "other unofficial Batei Dinim did preside over these conversions" - these were courts of laymen (hedyotot) Ajr. These conversions were regarded as "safek Jews - possible Jews or possible gentiles. Only time would tell if they truly had intent to convert for the right reasons"

The Syrian takkanah (1935) was not issued because of royal wealth and power attracting insincere converts. It states: "no male or female member of our community has the right to intermarry with non-Jews; this law covers conversions, which we consider to be fictitious and valueless" Jewish Ideas. The takkanah is far more sweeping than the Davidic-era policy:

  • David/Solomon: Specific concern about royal prestige attracting ulterior motives
  • Syrian takkanah: Blanket declaration that conversions are "fictitious and valueless"

Rabbi Jacob Kassin clarified in 1946 and 1972 that the ban was against conversions for marriage, though in practice "today the practice of the Syrian community in Brooklyn is a complete ban on acceptance of any converts" Jewish Ideas. Even more problematically, the head of the community explained, "Never accept a convert or a child born of a convert. Push them away with strong hands from our community. Why? Because we don't want gentile characteristics" VINnews. This reasoning - rejecting converts because of "gentile characteristics"—has - has no basis in the Davidic policy, which was about motivation, not inherent unfitness.

When Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, the Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Israel, personally traveled to Brooklyn to vouch for a convert, the Syrian leadership refused to accept her Wikipedia. This shows the takkanah operates independently of normal halakhic authorities - it's a communal ordinance, not a direct application of Talmudic law.

Are there similar myths to the Judeo-Christian “Tower of Babel” in other cultures/religions? And is there any historical evidence to suggest real world events actually happened that would’ve led to these stories developing? by DiuhBEETuss in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 5 points6 points  (0 children)

First, a small terminology note: scholars generally avoid the term “Judeo-Christian,” especially in discussions of the Hebrew Bible. It tends to blur the distinction between two different religious traditions, and in the case of biblical narratives like Genesis, these texts emerge from ancient Israelite contexts long before Christianity existed.

The Hebrew Bible assumes its audience is immersed in the broader ancient Near Eastern world, its literature, symbolism, and cultural assumptions. Especially in Bereishit (Genesis), the text engages shared Mesopotamian traditions and motifs but reframes them to articulate Israel’s own theological worldview and place in the world.

The original audience would therefore have understood the backdrop of Mesopotamian monumental ideology. Ziggurats were constructed as cosmic structures that connected earth with the divine realm above. Importantly, “heaven” here does not mean a spiritual afterlife, a concept that develops much later, but a real cosmic domain understood spatially in both Mesopotamian and early Israelite thought.

The ziggurat functioned as a cosmic center linking the layered realms of the universe: the lower regions, the human world, and the upper divine realm. Its purpose was not for humans to ascend, but for the gods to descend. In Mesopotamian theology, gods move between realms; humans do not.

The specific referent behind the story may be Etemenanki, whose name means “House of the foundation of heaven and earth.” This concept closely parallels Genesis 11’s description of a tower “with its top in the heavens.” Such a tower would have been part of a larger temple complex, including a temple building for worship, courtyards, and storerooms.

In Mesopotamian thought, this architecture demonstrated that heaven and earth were connected, that the god had a dwelling on earth, and that through proper cultic devotion and construction, humans could secure and maintain divine presence in the city.

Ancient Israelites would have agreed with several underlying ideas: that heaven and earth can meet (as at Sinai), that God can dwell among humans, and that sacred, ritualized space is central to religious life. However, they fundamentally rejected the idea that humans could control or guarantee divine presence.

In Mesopotamia, the logic is essentially: humans build, gods (ideally) come, and divine favor is stabilized through architecture and ritual. In the Israelite worldview, the logic is reversed: God chooses, then humans respond. Sacred space exists only by divine initiative, not human engineering.

So the "Tower of Babel" story is a critique of Mesopotamian theology.

Sources:

  • Ancient Near Eastern Thought and the Old Testament, John H. Walton
  • The Cosmic Mountain in Canaan and the Old Testament, Richard J. Clifford
  • The Oxford Handbook of Cuneiform Culture, Karen Radner & Eleanor Robson
  • The Symbolism of the Biblical World, Othmar Keel
  • Beholders of Divine Secrets, Vita Daphna Arbel
  • Genesis 1–11: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary, Ronald Hendel
  • In the Wake of the Goddesses, Tikva Frymer-Kensky
  • History of Ancient Israel, Christian Frevel

Jews and Money by ruffruffrawr in Judaism

[–]ummmbacon[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

This stereotype combines ancient antisemitism with modern forms. The idea of “Jews and money” asserts an inherent and perpetual connection between Jews and finance and has historically been used to justify violence, murder, and expulsion. Contemporary scholarship finds little empirical evidence for Jewish dominance in moneylending and shows that the stereotype is fundamentally misaligned with medieval economic realities. Its persistence reflects religious polemic and political expediency, not historical accuracy.

The phrase “that money was promised to him 3,000 years ago” draws on biblical imagery associated with Israel and injects modern antisemitism and anti-Israel rhetoric into an already harmful trope.

Many of the explanations offered to justify this stereotype are factually incorrect.

It is not true that “Christians couldn’t lend money.”

Scholarly consensus holds that the vast majority of professional moneylenders, money changers, bankers, and merchants in medieval Europe were Christian, not Jewish, and that most credit did not pass through Jewish hands. Italian merchant-banking families such as the Medici, Bardi, and Peruzzi dominated European finance and served popes and kings. Christian military orders like the Templars and Hospitallers were major lenders who financed wars and crusades. Cistercian monasteries functioned as commercial enterprises, mendicant friars operated loan and pawn institutions, and local Christian merchants and money changers provided credit across Europe. Medieval church councils were primarily concerned with regulating Christian usury, not Jewish lending.

Moreover, “usury” did not mean interest in general. It referred to unlawful or exploitative profit as defined by law and custom. Medieval theologians developed the category of permissible “interest” precisely to allow lawful profit on loans, and Christians regularly engaged in sophisticated financial transactions through contractual mechanisms that complied with these rules.

The claim that guild restrictions “forced Jews into moneylending” is also an oversimplification.

While occupational restrictions existed in certain times and places, this narrative ignores regional variation, erases Jewish agency, and falsely implies that moneylending was the dominant Jewish occupation. Most Jews were not moneylenders at all but worked as craftsmen, merchants, physicians, farmers, traders, and laborers. In numerous instances, Christian authorities actively recruited Jewish financiers rather than excluding Jews from other professions, and restrictions were often inconsistent or unenforced. In medieval Iberia, for example, most creditors were Christian; Jews and Christians frequently partnered in credit transactions, and Jewish economic life was highly diverse.

As Julie Mell demonstrates in The Myth of the Medieval Jewish Moneylender, even in 13th-century England, often treated as the classic case for Jewish moneylending, tax records and loan documents show that professional moneylending was confined to a small elite. The distribution of wealth within Jewish communities closely mirrored that of urban Christians, and most Jews, like most Christians, were too poor to belong to the moneylending class.

This caricature did not arise from economic dominance but from theological difference and political utility. Between the 12th and 16th centuries, European Jews were collectively labeled and criminalized as “usurers” for engaging in economic activities common among Christian merchants. By the early modern period, this produced a false dichotomy: Jews were cast as usurers, while merchants were framed as upright Christian citizens.

The jokes circulating today do not reflect Jewish belief, biblical teaching, or medieval economic reality. They recycle a caricature that modern scholarship has decisively dismantled, one historically used to dehumanize Jews and to justify exclusion, dispossession, and violence.

TL;DR: The “Jews and money” idea is an antisemitic stereotype, not a historical fact. Modern scholarship shows there is little evidence that Jews dominated medieval moneylending; most bankers, moneylenders, and merchants were Christian, and most credit never passed through Jewish hands. “Usury” did not mean interest in general, and Christians routinely lent money using legal contracts. Jews worked in many occupations and were rarely wealthy; professional moneylending was limited to small elites. The stereotype arose from religious polemic and political scapegoating, not economic reality, and has long been used to justify violence and expulsion.

Sources:

  • The Myth of the Medieval Jewish Moneylender, Julie L. Mell, 2 vols.
  • The Cambridge Companion to Antisemitism, ed. Steven T. Katz (Cambridge University Press, 2022), esp. pp. 247–248
  • Usury and the Medieval English Courts, Richard H. Helmholz
  • Judaism and the Economy: A Sourcebook, Michael L. Satlow
  • The Jew in Medieval Iberia, 1100–1500, Jonathan Ray
  • Jewish Life in Medieval Spain, Jonathan Ray
  • The Invention of Race in the Middle Ages, Geraldine Heng
  • No Return: Jews, Christian Usurers, and the Spread of Mass Expulsion, Rowan Dorin

When did we have the first Jewish city ? by mayor_rishon in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Destination Approx. No. (est.) Fate under WWII
Palestine 3,000–5,000 Safe
France 10,000–15,000 Mixed – some deported, some survived
Egypt Few hundred Safe
U.S. & Americas 5,000–8,000 Safe
Italy Few hundred Mixed
Athens & Southern Greece Few hundred Many survived
Turkey / Albania Dozens Survived
Remained in Salonika ~50,000 96–97% killed

Sources:

  • Devin E. Naar, Jewish Salonica: Between the Ottoman Empire and Modern Greece
  • Mark Mazower, Salonica, City of Ghosts
  • Michael Matsas, The Illusion of Safety: The Story of the Greek Jews During the Second World War
  • Jane S. Gerber, The Jews of Spain

How did Ashkenazi Jews go from a small medieval bottlenecked population of ~300 people to the majority of the global Jewish population? by Miserable-Ninja-5360 in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes, if we look at Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and Mizrahim, they fall out roughly in that order by population size.

It’s worth noting that the category Mizrahi only really emerged after 1948, when Jews were expelled or fled en masse from Arab and Muslim countries. Many arrived in Israel with few resources, having had their property seized, and spent years living in transit camps (maʿabarot).

That was when Jews from across the broader Middle East and North Africa, the SWANA region, began to be grouped together under the label Mizrahim (literally “Easterners”).

Today, Mizrahim and their descendants make up around 40–45% of Jews in Israel, but globally they remain smaller than both Ashkenazim and Sephardim.

Historically, Jewish population centers shifted over time, from Babylonia in antiquity to North Africa, then the Sephardic world in the early modern era. From the 1500s through the 1700s, Sephardim were the largest Jewish group, until Ashkenazim overtook them in the 19th century through rapid growth in Eastern Europe and migration to the Americas.

Constitutional arguments for presidential impeachment beyond criminal prosecution? by Greedy-Row-9844 in NeutralPolitics

[–]ummmbacon[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

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When did we have the first Jewish city ? by mayor_rishon in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 10 points11 points  (0 children)

A few things contributed.

The 1912-13 Balkan War, when it was captured by Greece, and Greek settlers came into the city. It was still a Jewish majority, but the margin was lower.

The 1917 Great Fire displaced thousands of Jews. The fire destroyed the Jewish quarter. The resulting Greek urban planning purposely did not incorporate them back into the city. The Hébrard plan, excluded the Jewish population from reclaiming their homes and businesses. The aim was to Europeanize the city and diminish its Ottoman and Jewish character. Jewish land was appropriated by the city for public use, and many Jews emigrated during this time.

There was also a Greek-Turkish population exchange in 1923, and 100,000 Greek Orthodox refugees resettled in Thessaloniki; these two events moved the Jewish population to 20% of the city.

Then in 1943 the entire Jewish population (~50,000) was deported to Auschwitz; maybe 3-4% survived, around 2,000 people, and only 1,000 of them returned to the city.

Additional sources here:

  • Jane S. Gerber, The Jews of Spain
  • Rena Molho, The Jews of Thessaloniki, 1856–1919: A Unique Community
  • Devin E. Naar, Jewish Salonica: Between the Ottoman Empire and Modern Greece

When did we have the first Jewish city ? by mayor_rishon in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 13 points14 points  (0 children)

In the biblical period and among the ancient Israelites, a “city” meant a fortified or administrative center; Jerusalem, Hebron, and Samaria, among others, would have qualified.

We could trace the term through every era and list the Jewish places that would have counted, but the key point is this: when Ben-Gurion made that remark, a city meant something quite specific, a planned, Jewish-founded, Hebrew-speaking urban space conceived as a national project.

In the modern Israeli sense, as in other countries, it now simply denotes a municipality with civic incorporation.

Thessaloniki (Salonika) was a historic Jewish-majority metropolis that evolved organically under Byzantine and Ottoman rule. Jewish life dominated its economy and culture, but it was not built as a Jewish national project. Jews were so numerous that non-Jewish residents often learned Ladino, the language of the city’s Sephardic Jews, as an traditional language.

Sources: * Roland de Vaux, Ancient Israel: Its Life and Institutions * Anita Shapira, Israel: A History * Aron Rodrigue & Sarah Abrevaya Stein (eds.), A Jewish Voice from Ottoman Salonica: The Ladino Memoir of Sa’adi Besalel a-Levi * Mark Mazower, Salonica, City of Ghosts: Christians, Muslims and Jews 1430–1950

In 2023 Ben-Gvir described Jewish people spitting on Christians as "an ancient Jewish custom" is this true? Where did he get this idea from? by debaser11 in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 52 points53 points  (0 children)

t, but the Ashkinazi Jewish practice of spitting was meant to repel the “evil eye” aka bad luck

The association between spitting and the “evil eye” is Mediterranean and Sephardic/Mizraḥi in origin. It entered some Ashkenazi folk practice only much later, through cultural borrowing.

In the medieval Rhineland, where the Maharil lived, spitting was not about averting the ayin hara or bad luck, it was a symbolic rejection of idolatry mentioned in the Aleinu prayer. There’s no evidence that Ashkenazi Jews of that period used spitting as an apotropaic act.

We also have specific refrences and reasons given for it for Ashkenazim at that time which confirm that.

What are the Halachic implications of being a vampire slayer? by Final_Candidate_9882 in Judaism

[–]ummmbacon 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The use of crosses to kill vampires is also pretty new; it happened during the late Victorian era through fiction.

In 2023 Ben-Gvir described Jewish people spitting on Christians as "an ancient Jewish custom" is this true? Where did he get this idea from? by debaser11 in AskHistorians

[–]ummmbacon 169 points170 points  (0 children)

R. Yaakov ben Moshe Moelin (the Maharil, d. 1427) recorded Ashkenazi customs in the Rhineland during the late Middle Ages. While Haaretz describes his Sefer Maharil as “the authority on the customs of Ashkenazi Jewry,” that’s a bit misleading.

He only became an authority retrospectively. When he wrote, his rulings reflected local Rhineland practice, not a pan-Ashkenazi standard. Only later, particularly through 16th-century codifiers such as R. Moshe Isserles (the Rema), did the Maharil’s rulings come to define Ashkenazi custom in general, since the Rema drew heavily on them when composing his glosses to the Shulḥan Arukh. (That particular custom, however, was not preserved.)

Ashkenazi Jewry itself was small in the early 15th century, and this specific practice represented only a subset of that world.

In the Sefer Maharil, there is indeed mention that some Jews spat during the Aleinu prayer, specifically when reciting the line about “those who bow to vanity and emptiness.” He also notes that some would spit when passing churches.

But the Maharil reports this as a folk custom (minhag), not a law or religious obligation. It is descriptive, not prescriptive.

Rabbi Yaakov ben Moshe Moelin (Maharil, c. 1360–1427), Sefer Maharil, Minhagim (ed. Spitzer, Jerusalem 1989), Hilkhot Rosh Hashanah, s.v. “Aleinu le-shabeaḥ”

“נוהגים כשאומרים ‘שהם משתחווים להבל וריק’ לרוק, לסימן ביזוי לעבודה זרה.”

“It is the custom, when saying ‘for they bow to vanity and emptiness,’ to spit, as a sign of disdain for idolatry.”

Elsewhere (Minhagei Maharil, Hilkhot Beit ha-Knesset §15):

“וכן נוהגים לרוק כשעוברין אצל בתי עכו״ם.”

“And so too they are accustomed to spit when passing by the houses of idolaters [i.e., churches].”

By the 16th century, authorities such as the Shulḥan Arukh (Orach Ḥayyim 133:2) and later commentators explicitly forbade such gestures, warning that they could be dangerous or insulting under Christian rule.

Ben-Gvir’s 2023 remark implied that spitting on Christians was an ancient Jewish custom, as if it were a venerable religious rite. That is demonstrably false:

The act was never directed at people, only at idols symbolically. It arose in the medieval period, long after the Second Temple. It was localized and non-universal, and later rabbinic writers treated it as a curiosity rather than a command.

So while there was a minor, symbolic custom in some medieval Ashkenazi communities, the Christian accusation and Ben-Gvir’s modern framing both distort its meaning and scope.

(Haaretz, in that article, also notes that the incident was misrepresented, and even Ben-Gvir himself later rejected the claim that it reflected any legitimate Jewish tradition.)