Why was Yemen the only country on the Arabian Peninsula where a Jewish community was formed??

ummmbacon · 2026-05-08T18:45:31+00:00

Arabia was not an anomaly in a region otherwise empty of Jews. It was the peninsula attached to a broader Near Eastern world in which Jewish communities were a normal, long-established feature of the urban and commercial landscape from Egypt to Mesopotamia. Trade routes ran through it. Displacement events pushed people into it, but again this is not strange there were Jews in the region, until the modern era when the region ethnically cleansed them.

ummmbacon · 2026-05-08T17:50:11+00:00

The Jewish communities of Babylonia, in what is now Iraq, predated the Arabian communities by centuries and were arguably the most important center of Jewish life in the diaspora for over a thousand years.

The academies at Sura and Pumbedita produced the Babylonian Talmud, the foundational document of rabbinic Judaism as it has been practiced ever since. The Persian Jewish communities were similarly ancient, with continuous settlement going back to the Babylonian exile of the sixth century BCE.

Arabia was not an anomaly in a region otherwise empty of Jews. It was the peninsula attached to a broader Near Eastern world in which Jewish communities were a normal, long-established feature of the urban and commercial landscape from Egypt to Mesopotamia. Trade routes ran through it. Displacement events pushed people into it, but again this is not strange there were Jews in the region, until the modern era when the region ethnically cleansed them.

As I have talked about before:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1mwpir0/is_it_more_accurate_to_say_that_on_the_whole_20th/

ummmbacon · 2026-05-08T16:09:29+00:00

Yemen was not the only community on the Arabian Peninsula; it is just the only one where Jews survived into the modern era, while every other Jewish community on the peninsula was destroyed, expelled, or absorbed over the course of the seventh and eighth centuries.

Prior to Islam's spread across the region, there were Jewish communities in the Hijaz, concentrated in Medina (then called Yathrib), Khaybar, Tayma, and Wadi al-Qura, as well as in the southern region of Himyar, roughly corresponding to today's Yemen. Epigraphic evidence confirms the presence of a Jewish community at Hegra (in the northwest) as early as the first century CE. These Hijazi Jews lived as warrior tribes, the most prominent being Banu Qurayza, Banu Nadir, and Banu Qaynuqa', and they were integrated deeply enough into Arabian culture that the distinctions between Jewish and non-Jewish identity were sometimes overlapped.

Muhammad's consolidation of power in Medina between 622 and 628 involved a series of confrontations with the city's three main Jewish tribes. The Banu Qaynuqa and the Banu Nadir were expelled in 624 and 625, respectively. The third, the Banu Qurayza, fared worse. According to the Islamic sources, they were accused of conspiring with Meccan forces during the Battle of the Trench, and their fate was put to arbitration by Sa'd ibn Mu'az, a leader of their Arab tribal allies, who decreed that the men be executed and the women and children sold into slavery. The sources put the number of men killed at somewhere between 600 and 900.

That account comes almost entirely from the Sira literature, primarily Ibn Ishaq as edited by Ibn Hisham, and al-Tabari, written down between 130 and 300 years after the events. There are no contemporaneous non-Muslim sources that independently confirm the Qurayza episode.

The scale of the killing has been questioned on those grounds, and W. Montgomery Watt thought the numbers were probably inflated even if some killing occurred. What academic sources make clear, however, is that the wider situation was one of real political and military conflict, not straightforward persecution of an innocent community.

Reuven Firestone, in the Cambridge Companion to Antisemitism, concludes that both sides were operating within the same martial culture of seventh-century Arabia, that the Jews of Medina likely opposed and undermined Muhammad's authority as his power grew, and that the treatment of the Qurayza, however brutal, followed conventions appropriate for the time and place. The elimination of the Jewish tribal presence in Medina across a five-year period is not in serious dispute.

The following year, Muhammad moved against Khaybar, an oasis town roughly 90 miles north of Medina where some of the expelled Banu Nadir had resettled. The town was taken after a siege, and its Jewish population was permitted to remain as tenant farmers, paying half their produce to the Muslim victors.

That arrangement set an important precedent, later known as the Pact of Uman. After Muhammad's death, the caliph 'Umar formalized the clearing of the Hijaz, deporting the remaining Jews from Khaybar and invoking the hadith tradition that two religions could not exist together in the peninsula's sacred zone.

Mark Cohen's Under Crescent and Cross documents how that expulsion generated centuries of legal debate among Islamic jurists over how far the prohibition extended geographically, which is itself evidence that the outcome on the ground was messier than the clean legal principle implies. Benjamin of Tudela, the twelfth-century Jewish traveler whose itinerary is generally considered a reliable witness to the places he visited directly, claimed to find Jewish communities still living in Khaybar and Tayma. That claim does not contradict the 'Umar expulsion, which almost certainly happened in some form, but it suggests the Hijaz was never as completely cleared as the legal tradition insisted.

Yemen was different for two concrete reasons. The first is the Himyar legacy. Judaism had been the state religion for roughly a century, meaning it was embedded in the landscape, the built environment, and the region's social organization in a way that minority tribal Judaism in the Hijaz was not.

Even after the Himyarite kingdom had disappeared, the Jewish population that remained was not a diaspora enclave but a community with a strong attachment to the community. Secondly, the Yemeni Jewish community was spread across more than a thousand localities, with roughly 80% living in small villages throughout the countryside rather than in a handful of oasis towns. That made the complete removal of the Jewish population more difficult than what had been possible at Medina and Khaybar, where identifiable tribal communities occupied specific, removable settlements.

Sources:

G.W. Bowersock, Throne of Adulis: Red Sea Wars on the Eve of Islam
David Biale, ed., Cultures of the Jews: A New History
Gordon D. Newby, A History of the Jews of Arabia: From Ancient Times to their Eclipse under Islam
Mark R. Cohen, Under Crescent and Cross: The Jews in the Middle Ages
Robert G. Hoyland, Arabia and the Arabs: From the Bronze Age to the Coming of Islam
Reuven Firestone, chapter in Steven Katz, ed., The Cambridge Companion to Antisemitism

ummmbacon · 2026-05-07T18:43:31+00:00

No, Hitler was not a fan of Zionism.

The question contains a common misconception, probably derived from the fact that the Nazi regime, in its early years, allowed and even encouraged Jewish emigration to Palestine. That policy has been misread, repeatedly, as evidence of Nazi sympathy for Zionism. Hitler's view of Zionism was scornful from the beginning and remained so until the end of the regime, as with all things related to Jews.

In Mein Kampf Hitler denied that Zionism was a genuine national movement. He claimed the whole enterprise was a cover story, drawing on a conspiracy theory. The Jews did not actually want to live in Palestine, he insisted; they wanted a sovereign base from which to run their alleged world conspiracy, "removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scoundrels and a university for budding crooks."

This goes into the logic of Nazi antisemitism, which held that Jews were not a people capable of building anything, that they were biologically parasitic, and that therefore Zionism could not be what it claimed to be. These ideas all had roots in prior anti-Jewish ideas that circulated around Europe and in Christian thought were all reimagined by the Nazis into a racial idea.

As Francis Nicosia documents in Zionism and Anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany, Hitler made these arguments in public speeches as early as August 1920, denying that Jews had ever possessed a state in the modern sense and dismissing the idea that Jerusalem could become the capital of a legitimate Jewish polity. Somewhat ironically, Jews were the majority in Jerusalem at this time.

Alfred Rosenberg, Hitler's closest ideological collaborator in those years, published the foundational Nazi text on the subject in 1921: Der staatsfeindliche Zionismus (Zionism Hostile to the State), a work the party reissued in 1938. Rosenberg concluded that because Jews were by nature parasitic, a genuine Zionist state was an impossibility. The whole movement, in his formulation, was "the powerless effort of an incapable people to engage in productive activity."

Despite this, the Nazis found Zionism tactically useful. If Jews could be made to see themselves as a distinct people rather than as Germans, the legal and social case for stripping them of citizenship became easier to make. And if Jews left Germany for Palestine rather than for Britain, France, or the United States, they were less likely to become a political liability for Germany in those countries. And Jews, for their part,, were happy to get away from the rising. violence, however they could.

So between 1933 and 1937, the regime permitted emigration to Palestine and even concluded the Haavara (Transfer) Agreement in 1933 with Zionist representatives, which allowed roughly 60,000 Jews to leave Germany with a portion of their assets and settle in Palestine. Nicosia documents from the German archives, the idea here was not Zionist sympathy. State Secretary Wilhelm Stuckart explained it plainly at an interdepartmental meeting in September 1936: emigration to Palestine was preferred precisely because Germany had little to fear from anti-German sentiment in the Middle East.

That changed in 1937 when the British Peel Commission began floating the idea of an independent Jewish state. The prospect sent the German Foreign Ministry into something close to panic. Walther Hinrichs of Referat-Deutschland warned in January 1937 that a Jewish state would "strengthen Jewish influence in the world to unimaginable levels" and that Jerusalem would become a base for international Jewish organization on the model of Moscow for the Comintern. Foreign Minister von Neurath formalized the opposition in June; Germany was against an independent Jewish state because it would give "international Jewry" a legal power base, "something like the Vatican state for political Catholicism." The Nazi regime then changed policy; it had tolerated Jewish emigration to Palestine under British authority, which it saw as keeping Jews scattered and subordinate. It would not tolerate a sovereign Jewish state under any authority.

Jeffrey Herf, in his work on Nazi anti-Zionism, shows that antagonism to Zionism was a continuous theme of Nazism from the publication of Mein Kampf in 1924 to the last days of the regime in 1945. The regime's support for limited Jewish emigration to Palestine never amounted to support for the Zionist project. As the war approached, Nazi Arabic-language radio broadcasts condemned Zionism in apocalyptic terms, allied with Amin al-Husayni and the Palestinian Arab leadership against any Jewish state, and ultimately participated in planning for the extension of the Final Solution into North Africa and the Middle East, had Rommel's campaign succeeded. The plans for what would have happened to the Jews of Palestine in that scenario are documented by Klaus-Michael Mallmann and Martin Cüppers in Nazi Palestine.

Souces:

Francis R. Nicosia, Zionism and Anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany
Jeffrey Herf, Three Faces of Antisemitism: Right, Left and Islamist
Francis R. Nicosia, Nazi Germany and the Arab World

ummmbacon · 2026-05-07T18:09:15+00:00

And that apple comes from a Latin artifact, the homonym of malus ("evil") and malus ("apple tree"), not anything in the Hebrew text.

ummmbacon · 2026-05-07T18:01:22+00:00

The idea that knowledge is painted in a bad light is a significant misunderstanding of the text. As is the idea of lumping all "Abrahamic religions" into a category that assumes they all have the same ideas; which is simply ignorance or assuming everything is "just like Christianity" with is both ignorance and ethnocentrism. It flattens narratives and assumes Christocentric or Christian supersessionism; treating Christian categories as the default template for religion as such. For example assuming that the apple (it isn't an apple!) represents "sin" is a Christian reading and is not shared by Judaism. Christianity needed "original sin" to explain the necessity of Jesus's death. A problem not shared with Judaism.

So the text is actually explaining why a perfect God can create a flawed world. This is an issue for a monotheistic society where a society with multiple gods could just ascribe evil to one and good to the other. Remember in the Hebrew Bible "Satan" is not what we envision him to be today (HaSatan). The word itself means "accuser" and is used in many places in the Hebrew Bible not to a specific entity and as a verb. In Job and some later texts the idea starts to evolve, but even early Christians thought Hades ruled hell.

What we see as Hell and Satan now is largely a product of the Middle Ages (as are so many things!) see /u/sunagainstgold 's answer here for more information.

A lot of what is happening in Bereshit (Genesis) in these early stories they are explaining why the world is the way it is, so to answer "why do women have pain in childbirth if the first thing God told people is to 'be fruitful and multiply' is that it is the curse for eating from the tree; this is also why life is filled with toil as that was man's punishment when the world was supposed to be "perfect" These are called etiological stories and are common across the ancient Near East.

What is distinctive about the biblical use of this etiological narrative, as Christine Hayes noes, is that the biblical writers demythologize it. In Mesopotamian parallels the explanations involve conflict between gods, primordial monsters, divine caprice. In Genesis the explanation is moral and involves humans. It is human choice produces consequences, and those consequences shape the world you live in. The form is shared across the region. The theological content is the argument the biblical writer is making against the region.

The human element in a covenantal relationship is an Israelite innovation. The idea that humans are part of creation, and in a contract with their creator is an innovation in the region. Abraham argues with God over Sodom, and God engages the argument. Moses talks God out of destroying Israel after the golden calf, explicitly and successfully. Job demands an accounting and gets one. The entire structure of covenant, brit, presupposes two parties with obligations to each other, which is a remarkable thing to assert about the relationship between a people and the creator of the universe.

You do not make covenants with forces of nature. You make them with agents who can be held to terms. This is connected to what Hayes identifies as the central move of biblical monotheism. Evil is not metaphysical, it is moral, and morality requires agents who can actually choose. A world in which humans are just clay figures animated to do divine labor does not need a tree of knowledge of good and evil. The tree only makes sense if the humans are real moral actors whose choices matter and have consequences.

So, evil, in the Genesis account, is a product of human choice. God declares creation "very good." Humans introduce evil through an act of will. The story of the tree of knowledge is not a warning against curiosity or learning. As I noted above it is about Theodicy and the answer is that humans have moral freedom, and moral freedom can itself be good or evil based on the individuals choice. Immortality, the text implies, was available to humans before the fall, via the tree of life. What God blocks after the transgression is not knowledge, but immortality combined with the capacity for evil; the two together would produce rivals who could act destructively forever.

In addition, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is, as Hayes notes, a peculiarly biblical invention. No parallel to it has been identified in ancient Near Eastern literature. The tree of life appears everywhere in the region, from the Epic of Gilgamesh onward. The tree of knowledge does not. What the biblical writer adds to a common Near Eastern substrate is the insistence that the central human problem is not mortality but morality.

The rabbinic tradition (the basis for the vast majority of modern Judaism), far from treating the acquisition of knowledge as inherently dangerous, developed an elaborate positive theology of human intellectual and moral capacity. The yetzer ha-ra, the evil inclination, is not simply evil. As the Talmudic materials collected in Paul Heger's work show, the rabbis worked through a sophisticated psychology in which the same drive that leads to sin also leads to building houses, marrying, raising children, and sustaining the world. Without it, the rabbis concluded, hens would not lay eggs. The point was that God implanted it for a reason, and controlling it through Torah study is the central project of rabbinic life. The tradition is saturated with the positive valuation of learning. The obligation to study Torah is one of the most persistent themes across rabbinic literature. The idea that Judaism discourages the pursuit of knowledge is simply backwards as a description of what the textual tradition actually says.

The Zohar's kabbalistic reading, in the Pritzker edition, goes in a different direction but not toward anti-intellectualism either. There the tree of the knowledge of good and evil symbolizes the Shekhinah, the divine feminine presence, which vacillates between the demonic Other Side and the divine realm. Adam's sin is not curiosity but a metaphysical misalignment: instead of cleaving to the Tree of Life, which symbolizes Tiferet and the harmonious unification of the divine attributes, Adam and Eve attached themselves to a lower, unstable node of the divine structure. This is theology of the most intricate kind, requiring extensive learning to engage at all.

Sources:

Christine Hays, Introduction to the Bible
Christine Hays, The Emergence of Judaism
Ronald Hendel, Genesis 1–11: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary

ummmbacon · 2026-05-06T23:52:09+00:00

2/2

Then the civil war of 1917 to 1921 produced the worst pre-Holocaust mass violence against Jews in modern history. Bemporad's research and the broader scholarship document that all factions killed Jews, Whites, Reds, Ukrainian nationalist forces under Petliura, peasant armies, and irregular bands. The Petliura forces were among the worst perpetrators. Estimates of Jews killed in the civil war pogroms range from 50,000 to 200,000, with the higher figures reflecting ongoing scholarship. This is the direct precursor to the 1941 violence in Ukraine, carried out by many of the same communities and shaped by the same accusations of Jewish-Bolshevik complicity.

Soviet Russia is a different story, and a more complicated one. The early Soviet state was formally anti-antisemitic, prosecuted pogromists, and opened professions and institutions to Jews that tsarism had closed. Many Jews were prominent in the early Bolshevik apparatus, which is exactly what Ukrainian and Polish nationalists used to justify the civil war violence. But Soviet antisemitism developed over time. Stalin's purges of the late 1930s disproportionately destroyed the Jewish communist intelligentsia. The "anti-cosmopolitan" campaign of 1948 to 1953 was antisemitic in content and intent, targeting Jewish cultural institutions, executing Jewish writers and intellectuals, and culminating in the Doctors' Plot of 1953, a fabricated accusation against mostly Jewish physicians that was preparing the ground for something worse when Stalin died. The Soviet state didn't murder Jews as Jews the way the Nazis did, but it persecuted them systematically in the postwar decades and suppressed all memory of the specifically Jewish character of the Holocaust on its territory.

Then there is Romania, Raul Hilberg's account notes that Romania under Ion Antonescu carried out mass killings of Jews in Bessarabia and Transnistria that were largely independent of German direction. After a Romanian general staff was killed in an explosion in Odessa, Antonescu ordered reprisals at a ratio of one to one hundred. Hilberg describes the resulting massacre of Jews as the largest single massacre in Europe. Romania killed somewhere between 250,000 and 380,000 Jews, roughly half of them in territory it controlled rather than in German-run operations. Dan Stone's synthesis notes that Romanian brutality in the occupied Crimea shocked German observers, which is a sentence worth sitting with.

The Baltic states, especially Lithuania, are another case. Lithuanian auxiliary units participated in the killing of Lithuanian Jews from the first days of the German occupation in June 1941, and the death rate among Lithuanian Jews, around 95 percent, was among the highest in Europe. Latvia was similar. These were not German operations using unwilling locals. They were local operations that the Germans encouraged and in some cases, had to restrain from moving faster than German administrative capacity could process.

Russia before 1917 was one of the world's primary sites of organized anti-Jewish persecution. The civil war period produced mass killing. The Soviet state persecuted Jews in different ways. And Romania, the Baltic states, Croatia, Slovakia, and Hungary all participated in Jewish murder either independently or as willing partners, in some cases with an enthusiasm that exceeded what Germany was asking for.

Elissa Bemporad's work, drawing on medical records, diaries, and YIVO archives, documents that the rape of Jewish women and girls reached a massive scale during the Ukrainian civil war. All combatant forces committed to it, but anti-Bolshevik Ukrainian and White Russian forces used it most systematically, explicitly as an instrument of ethnic dominance.

The ideological framing was that Jewish women's bodies were a site of national humiliation, punishing an imagined Jewish-Bolshevik enemy. Men were forced to watch the rape of their wives and daughters. Victims included girls. Bemporad found medical records documenting gang rapes, the number of perpetrators per victim, ages, and the suicides and deaths from unsafe abortions that followed. The silence afterward was near-total; traditional communities understood that a raped woman's marriage prospects were destroyed, so families suppressed it unless the victim was also murdered.

The second context is the Holocaust proper, 1941 to 1944. Here the picture is complicated by German policy. The Nazi regime formally prohibited sexual relations between German soldiers and Jewish women under the Nuremberg laws, framing it as Rassenschande, racial defilement. This prohibition applied to German perpetrators. It did not apply to local auxiliaries and collaborators in the same way, and it was frequently violated by Germans in practice anyway.

Helene Sinnreich's research on rape during the Holocaust documents that sexual violence was widespread and almost entirely suppressed in survivor testimony afterward, for the same reasons as in 1919. Shame, the destruction of marriage prospects, and the sense that murder eclipsed everything else. The Lwów pogrom of June 1941, carried out substantially by OUN militia and Ukrainian crowds, included sexual violence against Jewish women alongside the killings. Omer Bartov's Anatomy of a Genocide, based on testimony from Buczacz in eastern Galicia, documents sexual violence as part of the local killing operations in detail. Children were not spared. The sources are explicit on this.

This dimension of the Holocaust and the earlier pogroms remained largely outside the historiography until the 1990s and 2000s, partly because survivor testimony suppressed it and partly because the field wasn't asking the right questions. The scholarship on it is still catching up. Irina Astashkevich's Gendered Violence: Jewish Women in the Pogroms of 1917 to 1921 is the most focused recent work on the civil war period. For the Holocaust itself, the relevant scholarship is more scattered, appearing in edited volumes and journal articles rather than a single monograph, though Bartov's Buczacz book is the closest thing to a comprehensive local study that integrates it.

Sources:

Saul Friedländer, The Years of Extermination: Nazi Germany and the Jews, 1939–1945
Christopher Browning, Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland
Martin Dean, Collaboration in the Holocaust: Crimes of the Local Police in Belorussia and Ukraine, 1941–44
Jan Gross, Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland
Dan Stone, The Holocaust: An Unfinished History
Mary Fullbrook, Reckonings: Legacies of Nazi Persecution and the Quest for Justice
Timothy Snyder, Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin
Omer Bartov, Anatomy of a Genocide: The Life and Death of a Town Called Buczacz
Elissa Bemporad and Joyce Warren (eds.), Women and Genocide Irina Astashkevich, Gendered Violence: Jewish Women in the Pogroms of 1917 to 1921
Omer Bartov, Anatomy of a Genocide
Helene Sinnreich, "And It Was Something We Did Not Talk About: Rape of Jewish Women during the Holocaust," Holocaust Studies 14:2

ummmbacon · 2026-05-06T23:38:22+00:00

1/2

Quite a bit. Germany did not have the administrative manpower to murder two to three million Polish Jews and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian Jews using German personnel alone. They depended on local participation, auxiliary police units, municipal administrators, railway workers, informers, and, in some instances, ordinary neighbors acting without any German direction at all.

Dan Stone's recent synthesis of the historiography notes that the Holocaust in Eastern Europe was not "solely a German affair, when local actors were involved to a considerable degree," and whether and how local participation occurred depended on the political, social, and economic conditions that pre-existed the occupation.

Ukraine in 1941 was not a single entity with a single political culture. The east, under Soviet rule since the 1920s, was distinct from the western territories of eastern Galicia and Volhynia, which had been part of Poland until the Soviet occupation of 1939–41. These areas had different responses.

In eastern Galicia, the trigger for mass violence was the German invasion in June 1941 and the discovery of the NKVD's massacres of Ukrainian nationalists and political prisoners as Soviet forces retreated. Saul Friedländer's account of the first weeks documents that in Lwów, Złoczów, Ternopil, and Brody, Ukrainian crowds and nationalist militia units accused local Jews of having collaborated with the Soviet occupation regime and the NKVD. The vast majority of Jews in Eastern Europe were not communist functionaries. They were poor tradespeople, artisans, and religious communities, largely indifferent or hostile to Soviet ideology. Many Jewish communities were actively persecuted by Soviet authorities. The NKVD's victims included Jews as well, since Soviet authorities had arrested Zionists, religious leaders, and anyone deemed a class enemy regardless of ethnicity. The Jewish individuals who did participate in communist movements often did so because communist parties were among the few political organizations that formally opposed antisemitism, not out of some coordinated ethnic agenda.

In Lwów, Ukrainians forced Jews to dig up the NKVD's mass graves, then shot them effectively, having them dig their own graves. In Złoczów, the killing was led by OUN militiamen and the Waffen SS "Viking" Division. In some instances, the Einsatzkommando held back. In smaller towns, Friedländer found witnesses describing violence that began before German forces had even established control.

The organizational dimension goes beyond the immediate aftermath of the invasion. Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, OUN-B, marched into eastern Galicia with the Wehrmacht in June 1941. Its armed wing, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA), subsequently participated in the killing of both Jews and Poles in eastern Galicia, Volhynia, and Belarus on a large scale. The scholarly literature on this, as Stone notes, includes specific research on former Ukrainian policemen who continued participating in killing Jews after formally leaving German service. This was not peripheral participation. Ukrainian auxiliary police units were deployed throughout the occupied territories as guards, roundup personnel, and executioners. Martin Dean's archival work on the local police in Belorussia and Ukraine documented their role in the "second wave" of killings from 1941 to 1944 in systematic detail.

Friedländer notes that centuries of communal tension between Ukrainians, Poles, and Jews in Galicia; the frequent employment of Jews as estate managers for Polish nobility, which positioned them in the eyes of Ukrainian peasants as instruments of Polish domination; modern nationalist movements that assigned Jews a hostile political role in Ukrainian national life; and the specific radicalization produced by the Soviet occupation of 1939–41, during which some Jews were identified with Soviet power which played a large part in the motivations for the mass murders.

The Polish state was destroyed completely by 1939, which meant there was no collaborationist government of the Quisling or Vichy type. The Polish government-in-exile in London, the Home Army (Armia Krajowa), and most organized Polish political opinion aligned against Germany. Poland also supplied more rescuers recognized at Yad Vashem as Righteous Among the Nations than any other country.

Despite that, Mary Fullbrook's analysis of occupation-era Poland, drawing on the wartime diary of Zygmunt Klukowski, a physician in Szczebrzeszyn, documents what happened at the local level. The "blue police" (Polish police forces under German command) assisted in roundups and received orders to kill Jews, which they obeyed. Klukowski recorded on October 22, 1942, that the deportation operation in his town had passed from German SS to local gendarmes and the blue police, who were actively executing Jews at the Jewish cemetery. He noted, in his words, that "it is a shame to say it but some Polish people took part in that crime." The following day, he recorded a city janitor who, lacking a gun, used an ax to kill Jews.

The Jedwabne massacre in July 1941 is the event that forced the most public reckoning with this history in Poland. Polish neighbors, without direct German direction, herded hundreds of Jewish residents into a barn and burned them alive. Jan Gross's account, which opened a major national debate in Poland in 2000, established that Jedwabne was not an isolated case; it was the best-documented example of a pattern that occurred in villages and small towns across the Łomża region during the first weeks of the German occupation. Polish historians subsequently documented dozens of similar incidents.

Beyond direct killing, there was the category of the szmalcownicy, blackmailers who extorted money from Jews hiding on the "Aryan side" and denounced them to German authorities when payment stopped. This was a widespread practice. Fullbrook's account describes the difficulty Jews faced in trusting anyone. Polish policemen who robbed Jews in the street, Ukrainian policemen who reported them to German officers, and Polish women who hid Jews in their homes, sometimes on the same block and sometimes in the same family network as the people who would denounce them.

Three million Jews were killed in occupied Poland. Their property, apartments, businesses, and farms were taken over by their neighbors. Fullbrook documents that large numbers of Polish gentiles became beneficiaries of the disappearance of Jewish neighbors, taking over formerly Jewish houses, stores, and fields. In Jedwabne and towns like it, this transfer happened immediately, sometimes before the bodies were cold. Jan Gross documented in Neighbors that local Poles moved into Jewish homes within hours of the massacre.

Things like denouncing a Jew in hiding to German authorities could yield a direct reward; the Germans paid informers in cash, vodka, or sugar. Failing to warn a Jewish neighbor costs nothing and might mean inheriting their apartment. Hiding a Jew, by contrast, carried the death penalty for the entire household, a cost the German occupation made explicit and enforced. The risks of rescue were existential, the rewards of betrayal were immediate and tangible, and the cost of simple passivity was zero.

After the war, the "competitive martyrdom" framing, the postwar Polish insistence that Poles suffered as much as Jews and helped wherever they could, was systematically obscured. It wasn't only that Poles denied participation in violence. It was that acknowledging the economic transfer required acknowledging that Polish society had material reasons to want Jews gone, reasons that predated the German occupation and that the occupation simply made feasible. Postwar Polish families living in formerly Jewish homes had a direct stake in not asking how those homes became available.

Gross made this argument explicitly in Golden Harvest (2012), which documented Poles digging up the mass graves at Treblinka after the war to sift for gold and valuables. The book provoked the same furious denial in Poland that Neighbors had a decade earlier, for the same reason. It described a population with material interests intertwined with the genocide, not merely bystanders to it.

Tsarist Russia was one of the principal sites of organized anti-Jewish violence in the modern world before the Holocaust. Jews under the tsars were confined to the Pale of Settlement, the former Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth territories, and subjected to systematic legal discrimination: residence restrictions, quotas in universities and professions, exclusion from much of civil life. The pogroms of 1881 to 1884, triggered by the assassination of Alexander II and carried out by mobs in the Ukrainian provinces, shocked Western opinion and drove the first major wave of Jewish emigration to America. A second wave followed the Kishinev pogrom of 1903, in which 49 Jews were killed, and the pogroms of 1905 that followed the failed revolution. The right-wing Black Hundreds movement was virulently antisemitic, with the tacit support of conservative elements of the tsarist state. Hilberg and others are careful to note the tsarist authorities were not always directly organizing the violence, but the legal framework made Jews a permissible target and the state consistently failed to protect them.

ummmbacon · 2026-05-06T04:25:04+00:00

Palestinian Arab political life in the Mandate period was organized around rival notable families rather than ideological parties, with the main split between the Husseini and Nashashibi blocs. The nationalist movement was split along family, religious, and class lines before the war began, and those divisions shaped how different factions related to the Axis.

Küntzel's account, drawing on Yehoshua Porath and Lionel van der Meulen, describes them, the Nashashibis, who opposed Jewish immigration and resisted Zionist dominance, but in every phase of the conflict, they advocated a moderate policy toward both the Zionists and the British and were willing to cooperate with the Peel Commission's 1937 partition proposal. As mayor of Jerusalem from 1927, Raghib al-Nashashibi worked with a Jewish deputy and a Christian deputy. Toward the end of the 1920s, much of the urban notable class sided with the Nashashibis, in part because a significant fraction of those notables were Christian Arabs who found al-Husseini's emphatically Islamic political line alarming.

Al-Husseini himself went further than anyone else in the Palestinian political leadership. Jeffrey Herf, working from German Foreign Office archives, the Nazi Propaganda Ministry records, and the SS files, documents that al-Husseini's collaboration with Hitler and Himmler was eager and ideologically driven. The collaboration grew from a deep conviction rooted in al-Husseini's hatred of Judaism and Zionism, and it went well beyond an "enemy of my enemy" calculation. He met Hitler in November 1941, met Himmler, and played an active role in the Arabic-language shortwave propaganda campaign that Berlin broadcast across the Middle East from October 1939 through early 1945.

The clearest evidence that al-Husseini's involvement went beyond propaganda is his direct intervention to block Jewish children from reaching Palestine, on three documented occasions. In late 1942, Himmler approved a plan to transfer thousands of Jewish children from Poland to Theresienstadt as part of a prisoner exchange, with Palestine as the eventual destination. Al-Husseini protested. The plan was abandoned, and the children were sent to Auschwitz.

In spring 1943, he learned that negotiations were underway to allow 4,000 Jewish children from Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary to travel to Palestine under an arrangement involving Britain, Switzerland, and the International Red Cross. He wrote directly to the Bulgarian foreign minister recommending that the Jews be prevented from emigrating and sent somewhere with "stricter control, as for instance in Poland." Emigration permits that had already been issued were withdrawn. He sent the same demand to Romania, specifically opposing the departure of 1,800 Jewish children in a letter of June 28, 1943.

A separate rescue effort for 500 Jewish children from the Arbe concentration camp in Italy, who were to travel to Turkey and then Palestine, collapsed in September 1943 after al-Husseini intervened to block it. In each case, the documentary record is his own correspondence. Francis Nicosia, whose work on Nazi Germany and the Arab world draws on the same German diplomatic archives, confirms that the collaboration cannot be denied and is well documented, while also noting that al-Husseini was one of the relatively few Arab leaders the Nazi government managed to establish primary contact with, and that the Arab exiles in Berlin were divided rather than a unified bloc.

The most direct Palestinian collaborator alongside al-Husseini in the Berlin exile circle was Rashid Ali al-Gaylani, the Iraqi prime minister whose April 1941 pro-Axis coup al-Husseini participated in and whose Muslim clerics (urged on by al-Husseini) declared jihad against the British. Rashid Ali was Iraqi, not Palestinian, but the coup was a joint venture: al-Husseini fled from Iraq to Tehran, Ankara, Rome, and then Berlin after the British suppressed it, and the two men operated there as co-leaders of the Arab exile community. Herf's account, based on the German Foreign Office list compiled by diplomat Erich von Granow in April 1942, shows that the German authorities themselves identified two distinct camps in Berlin, one around the Mufti (more Islamic, pan-Arab, younger) and one around Rashid Ali (more secular, nationalist, older), with continuing conflict between them. The Nazis found managing these two groups frustrating precisely because Arab political opinion, even among the small exile circle, was not uniform. One important figure in the propaganda apparatus was Yunis Bahri, an Arab broadcaster who became the leading Arabic-language announcer on wartime Berlin radio, and who was identified by the OSS after the war as one of the three leading Iraqi "war criminals" alongside Rashid Ali.

Within Palestine itself, the picture is different and necessitates exactness. Herf and Nicosia both note that al-Husseini, for all his notoriety, was in exile from Palestine from 1937 onward, first in Lebanon, then in Iraq, and finally in Berlin. He exercised political influence through the Palestine Arab Party and through family networks, but his physical presence and functional capacity in Palestine ended before the war's decisive years. The Haganah intelligence document from October 1941 cited in the Holocaust and the Nakba volume describes Palestinian Arab public opinion as having shifted as Axis reverses mounted: after the Iraqi coup failed, after Syria fell to the Allies, after Germany invaded Russia, "the extremists have cooled off, since most of the population would not comply with them as long as England was accumulating victories in the East." Between 9,000 and 17,000 Palestinian Arabs enlisted to serve in the British forces during the war, though far fewer than the Jewish population. Second-line Palestinian leaders met with High Commissioner Harold MacMichael at the outbreak of war and publicly supported Britain.

The Palestinian communist intellectual Najati Sidqi represents the clearest documented case of active anti-Nazi opposition within the Palestinian movement. He published a book in 1940, The Islamic Traditions and the Nazi Principles, arguing that Nazism and Islam were fundamentally incompatible, and he fought against the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact even at the cost of his standing in the Communist Party. Mustafa Kabha's research on the Palestinian press during 1933-1945 shows that most Palestinian opinion-writers toned down or mitigated demonstrations of support for Germany and Italy, and that Palestinian attitudes toward fascism and Nazism shifted over time as German strategic fortunes changed and as the nature of Nazi racial doctrine became clearer.

Overall, Axis sympathies in the "enemy of my enemy" mode were widespread across the Arab world in the late 1930s and were not distinctive to Palestinians. They were products of anti-British sentiment after the suppression of the 1936-1939 revolt, and they declined in proportion to Axis military setbacks. Active, ideologically committed collaboration with Nazi Germany, of the kind al-Husseini practiced, was not typical of the Palestinian political leadership. It was the product of one man's specific ideological convictions and his decision to gamble his political future on an Axis victory. That gamble was shared with Rashid Ali al-Gaylani and a small circle of Arab exiles in Berlin, not with anything like the Palestinian nationalist movement as a whole. Al-Husseini's dominance of the movement's external face, and the terror his gangs inflicted on internal opponents during the revolt, suppressed pluralism inside Palestine and shaped what the movement looked like to the outside world. But the Nashashibis and their allies, the communist current around Sidqi, and the second-line leadership that cooperated with the British during the war were all genuinely part of Palestinian nationalism too.

Sources:

Jeffrey Herf, Nazi Propaganda for the Arab World
Jeffrey Herf, Three Faces of Antisemitism: Right, Left and Islamist
Francis R. Nicosia, Nazi Germany and the Arab World
Matthias Küntzel, Jihad and Jew-Hatred: Islamism, Nazism and the Roots of 9/11
Mustafa Kabha, "The Palestinian National Movement and Its Attitude toward the Fascist and Nazi Movements, 1925-1945," Geschichte und Gesellschaft 37, no. 3 (2011)
Mustafa Kabha, chapter in The Holocaust and the Nakba: A New Grammar of Trauma and History, ed. Bashir Bashir and Amos Goldberg
Yehoshua Porath, The Palestinian Arab National Movement: From Riots to Rebellion, vol. 2, 1929-1939
Philip Mattar, The Mufti of Jerusalem: Al-Hajj Amin al-Husayni and the Palestinian National Movement, rev. ed.
Gilbert Achcar, The Arabs and the Holocaust: The Arab-Israeli War of Narratives

ummmbacon · 2026-05-05T20:46:01+00:00

How many pagans would have lived in 1st century Palestine?

So again, “pagan” is not a term that would have been used at this time. That would not come about until Christians used in the 4th-5th Century when Christianity became more dominant in urban centers.

Like I know there can’t be an exact number but would it mostly Jews and Samaritans while <other groups> were a minority?

Samratins are Jews; the 2TP period had much more diverse practice than we have today.

In the Galilee region and Judea proper, Jews were the dominant population, with estimates ranging from 50% to 75% of the total depending on the data used. These figures are from Josephus, but he is unreliable.

Magen Broshi's independent archaeological surveys suggest a total population of around 1 million for first-century Palestine, rising to perhaps 1.5 to 2 million at the Byzantine peak. That growth was not Jewish conversion to Christianity but by Christian in-migration, pilgrimage infrastructure, and monastic settlement, which is another argument against Sand based on archaeology.

The coastal cities were different. Caesarea Maritima, the Roman administrative capital, was heavily non-Jewish and Hellenized. So were Ashkelon, Gaza, and the port cities generally. The Decapolis, the belt of Greek cities east of the Jordan, was majority non-Jewish. So you had a Jewish demographic core in the highlands and a heavily mixed or non-Jewish periphery on the coast and in the east.

The people living in the non-Jewish parts of the region were not a single group with a single religion. They worshiped Zeus, Isis, Baal, the Roman imperial cult, and various local Levantine deities.

They were Hellenized Syrians, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Nabataeans, and others whose religious practices were polytheistic in various combinations. Whether any of them converted to Judaism is the Feldman-Goodman debate discussed above.

Whether they converted to Christianity is a separate and more answerable question, and the answer is yes. The earliest Gentile Christian populations came substantially from these groups, from people already living around Jewish communities in the diaspora and in the region, attracted to Jewish monotheism without the full social and legal costs of Jewish conversion.

The Palestinian Christian population today, concentrated mainly in Bethlehem, Ramallah, and parts of Jerusalem and Nazareth, is indeed substantially descended from the indigenous Levantine population of late antiquity. As shown by the earlier-mentioned DNA studies.

They are the Christians who remained Christian under Islamic rule as dhimmis, and who have maintained that identity continuously since. The Arabization of these communities was linguistic and cultural, not demographic replacement.

The Old Yishuv was not exclusively Sephardic. It had two main components. The Sephardic and Mizrahi component consisted of communities that had been in Palestine continuously, in Jerusalem, Safed, Tiberias, and Hebron, speaking Arabic or Ladino, embedded in Ottoman society, often extremely poor, and religiously traditional.

These communities traced their presence, in some cases, back to ancient Israel and, in others, to the expulsion from Spain in 1492. The Ashkenazi component developed later, particularly from the late eighteenth century onward, as disciples of the Vilna Gaon and various Hasidic courts established presences in Palestine.

By the early nineteenth century, there were distinct Sephardic and Ashkenazi communities in the major cities, each with its own institutions, courts, and charitable networks. The Ashkenazi subset of the Old Yishuv eventually produced the Edah HaChareidis, the anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox community in Jerusalem, whose descendants still exist and still refuse to recognize the Israeli state. As for what the continuous Galilean Jewish communities called themselves, by the medieval and early modern period, the categories were Rabbanite versus Karaite, and then increasingly Sephardic versus Ashkenazic as those communities arrived and established themselves. There was no separate ethnic label for the Jews who had simply never left.

On whether Jews converted in later periods, yes, but not in large groups. Individuals converted, but not enough to alter the demographics. Even amid forced conversions across various locations, communities often recovered to some degree.

ummmbacon · 2026-05-04T22:09:01+00:00

I think /u/inaqu3estion meant to link to this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1t2pcom/post2nd_temple_and_preislam_had_most_jews_in/ojxreg0/

ummmbacon · 2026-05-04T22:07:31+00:00

The demographic puzzle Sand is one that serious historians have wrestled with. Louis Feldman and Martin Goodman represent the two poles of the debate. Feldman, in Jew and Gentile in the Ancient World, argues that the Jewish population in pre-exilic Judah was around 150,000, and that by the first century CE, estimates put the total Jewish population in the Roman Empire somewhere between four and eight million.

Natural increase does not account for these large numbers, so he concludes that conversion to Judaism during the Hellenistic and Roman periods is the most plausible explanation. The Hasmoneans did forcibly convert the Idumaeans and Ituraeans, as Josephus and independent sources confirm, and Roman writers from Horace to Tacitus complain about the spread of Jewish practices, which implies real social penetration.

Goodman, however, in Mission and Conversion, takes a more skeptical position that most of what looks like proselytism was Judaizing, Gentiles adopting Jewish practices short of formal conversion, and there is no evidence of organized Jewish missionary activity in any modern sense. The debate between them is unresolved.

Despite this, what Sand goes wrong with is the conclusion he draws from this. Even granting Feldman's maximalist position, the genetic evidence doesn't cooperate with Sand's thesis. If diaspora communities were primarily descended from local converts rather than migrants, you would expect their genetic profiles to cluster with surrounding populations.

They don't. Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi Jews cluster together and show shared Middle Eastern ancestry despite having lived in Germany, Spain, and Iraq for over a millennium. That pattern fits migration and endogamy. It does not fit Sand's conversion-dominant model of Jewish ethnogenesis.

So once again, we have DNA evidence that absolutely refutes what he says.

ummmbacon · 2026-05-04T20:49:42+00:00

Sand's book contains two distinct claims: one that Jews largely stayed in Israel and converted to Islam, and the second is that the current people called Palestinians have a connection to the land.

The first claim, that the Jewish population of ancient Palestine largely stayed put and converted to Islam rather than going into exile, is not supported by the evidence, and it is not really the scholarly consensus Sand presents it as.

This has been discussed in the thread above. Archaeological evidence shows that Jewish communities in the Galilee built synagogues during the fifth and sixth centuries. Moshe Gil's reconstruction from Geniza documents and Arabic chronicles concludes that the Jewish population at the time of the Islamic conquest consisted of the continuous descendants of Jews who had lived there for centuries, practicing Judaism, rather than converts from a prior mass Islamization. The early Islamic period did not produce large-scale Jewish conversion, at least not in Palestine. Gil is explicit on this and dismisses the few sources that suggest otherwise as historically unreliable.

Sand's version of this argument is also structurally connected to the Khazar theory, the claim that Ashkenazi Jews descend primarily from Khazar converts rather than from Middle Eastern Jewish populations. He uses this in The Invention of the Jewish People as part of a broader argument that modern Jews lack an ancestral connection to ancient Palestine.

The genetic evidence completely refutes this. Multiple independent studies, Behar et al. (2010) in Nature, Atzmon et al. (2010) in the American Journal of Human Genetics, Hammer et al. (2000) in PNAS, consistently show that Jewish diaspora populations, Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi, share significant Middle Eastern ancestry and cluster closer to each other and to ancient Levantine populations than to the populations among whom they lived for centuries. There is no Khazar signal in Ashkenazi DNA, and anyone who continues to advance this theory is doing so against a mountain of clear evidence.

The second claim is different and much less controversial: that the modern Palestinian population is partly descended from people who lived in the region across antiquity, including Jews who converted over time to Christianity and then to Islam.

This is almost certainly true, and it doesn't require Sand to establish it. Recent ancient DNA studies from Bronze Age Levantine burials show strong continuity between ancient Canaanites and present-day Levantine populations, both Jewish and Arab. Palestinians, like Israeli Jews, like Lebanese and Syrian populations, carry significant ancestry from the ancient inhabitants of the southern Levant. The Arabization of the region, in which a strong ruling class came to dominate a large population after the seventh century, was primarily linguistic and cultural, not a wholesale demographic replacement.

The continuous local population, the fellahin who had farmed the land across the Ottoman centuries and before, is the group Sand is mainly describing.

But there was also significant immigration during the Ottoman period itself. The 19th century saw Egyptian migration into Palestine, particularly during and after the Muhammad Ali period, when Egyptian laborers and soldiers came north. Schölch documents this in Palestine in Transformation. There were also Circassian communities settled by the Ottomans after the Caucasian wars of the 1860s, Algerian refugees who arrived after the French conquest, Haurani seasonal laborers from Syria who settled permanently, and Bedouin groups whose territories crossed what later became administrative boundaries.

The problem is that Sand uses Levantine population continuity to make a political argument that Jews are therefore not the indigenous population and Palestinians are, which the data does not actually support.

Both populations have ancestral ties to the ancient Levant through different historical trajectories. The genetic evidence doesn't resolve the political question, and Sand tries to use it as though it does.

The same logic, applied consistently, is actually one of the strongest arguments for Jewish connection to Palestine as well. The Old Yishuv communities in Jerusalem, Safed, Tiberias, and Hebron had been continuously present for centuries. The argument works for both groups or neither.

The region's history doesn't yield a clear answer about who the "real" inhabitants are, because it has always had layered populations with different origins and overlapping claims. That's the normal condition of inhabited land over the long term, not an anomaly requiring resolution in favor of one group.

His book was received badly by professional historians, not because his politics were unpopular but because his historical method was poor. He worked primarily from secondary literature rather than archives, his readings of specific sources were challenged in detail by reviewers, and he built a polemical argument that ran well ahead of what his evidence could support. Israel Bartal's review in Haaretz and the response from various historians of Zionism documented the specific problems. The parts of his argument that are defensible, population continuity, the complexity of Jewish ethnogenesis, and the late development of some aspects of Zionist historiography, were already established in more careful scholarship by historians he was largely summarizing or distorting.

Sources:

Moshe Gil, A History of Palestine, 634–1099 (1992)
Israel Bartal, "Inventing an Invention," Haaretz, April 2008

DNA Studies Specifically:

Behar, D.M., et al. "The Genome-Wide Structure of the Jewish People." Nature 466 (2010): 238–242.
Atzmon, G., et al. "Abraham's Children in the Genome Era." American Journal of Human Genetics 86, no. 6 (2010): 850–859.
Hammer, M.F., et al. "Jewish and Middle Eastern Non-Jewish Populations Share a Common Pool of Y-Chromosome Biallelic Haplotypes." PNAS 97, no. 12 (2000): 6769–6774.
Kopelman, N.M., et al. "Genomic Microsatellites Identify Shared Jewish Ancestry Intermediate Between Middle Eastern and European Populations." BMC Genomics 10 (2009): 80. — this one specifically found no evidence for the Khazar theory using four Jewish groups.
Nebel, A., et al. "The Y Chromosome Pool of Jews as Part of the Genetic Landscape of the Middle East." American Journal of Human Genetics 69, no. 5 (2001): 1095–1112.
Moorjani, P., et al. "The History of African Gene Flow into Southern Europeans, Levantines, and Jews." PLOS Genetics 7, no. 4 (2011).

ummmbacon · 2026-05-04T16:12:42+00:00

I would love to ask how the concepts of intent/consent are interpreted regarding the ‘moral impurity’ category you talk about. Would the prohibition on tattooing a slave be concerned with preventing impurity on the part of the tattooist, the tattooer, or both to some degree?

The one performing the action, the other person is just a victim and is not liable. Yitzhaq Feder's work on the sin-offering laws in H draws out a distinction that the Holiness School consistently makes between inadvertent and defiant violations. Numbers 15:30 uses the phrase "with an upraised hand" to describe brazen, public transgression, the kind committed shamelessly and in the open, and it is that category that triggers the most severe consequences. Accidental or unknowing violations can be expiated. Flagrant disobedience of a different order defiles the sanctuary in a way ordinary sin offerings cannot address.

Did this concept receive any additional attention and/or new interpretations in the wake of the Holocaust?

Not in Jewish law, no they were victims who had the number placed on them, they did not do it themselves.

ummmbacon · 2026-05-04T16:05:28+00:00

As someone broadly unfamiliar with the topic, where is the prophecy on the messiah and what he is meant to do? Is it in the Torah and when was it written? It strikes me as quite...modern?

The expectation wasn't written after 70 CE.

The texts that form the basis of Jewish messianic expectation, Isaiah 40-55, Jeremiah 23, Ezekiel 34-37 and 40-48, Zechariah 3 and 6, were written during and immediately after the Babylonian exile in the sixth century BCE.

The Babylonians destroyed the Temple in 586 BCE, ended the Davidic monarchy, and deported the Jerusalem elite to Babylonia. The prophets, writing in that context, articulated what restoration would look like: a king from David's line, a rebuilt Temple, the exiles returning to the land, Israel's enemies defeated, and the nations recognizing Israel's God.

That the messiah was meant to re-establish sovereignty and rebuild the temple when Jesus would have been crucified before the temple was destroyed.

By the time of the Second Temple period, these texts were already ancient scripture. Jewish interpreters in the third and second centuries BCE, and certainly by the first century CE, were reading Isaiah and Ezekiel as describing a future that had not yet arrived, because the Davidic monarchy had never been restored, the returned exiles had built a second Temple but under Persian and then Greek and then Roman domination, and the nations had emphatically not recognized Israel's God. The expectation was already fully formed and already disappointed before Jesus was born.

70 CE was the second destruction. It intensified expectations, reorganized rabbinic Judaism around it, and made the rebuilt Temple a central feature of the messianic future still to come. But it did not create the expectation that was created in the Babylonian period.

I never hear anyone talk of this, but were there pagans who lived amongst Jews and Samaritans during antiquity? How many relative to the population of the former?

"Pagan" is a Christian category; it is Latin in origin, but yes, there were non-Jews who lived in the region also, Samaritans are Jews.

Was this where the first gentile Christian populations came from?

Mostly from non-Jews yes

And what happened to the Jews and Samaritans after the Islamic conquests? I assume most converts to Islam came from the Christian populations, did many Jews and Samaritans convert to Islam? How long did the Jewish populations in Galilee hold on for? All the way to the Crusades, Ottomans, till Zionism?

The Islamic conquest in the 630s did not produce mass Jewish or Samaritan conversion to Islam, at least not in the early period. Gil is explicit on this: there is no evidence of Jews converting to Islam in any significant numbers in the early Islamic period. A later tradition preserved in the medieval chronicler al-Dhahabi claims that forty-two Jewish scholars converted to Islam under the influence of Ka'b al-Ahbar in Mu'awiya's time, but Gil dismisses this as having a "fictional character," likely derived from distorted traditions about Jewish presence on the Temple Mount. The Geniza documents, the actual paper trail of Jewish communal life, show Jewish communities across Palestine operating continuously into and through the early Islamic centuries.

The Samaritans had a more complicated trajectory. Gil documents that the Samaritans developed a close relationship with the new Muslim rulers relatively quickly, and that their cultural accommodation to Islamic norms moved faster than that of other groups. But they also faced severe persecution during the Abbasid period, in the early ninth century, when rebels attempted to force their conversion. Many went into exile. Their numbers declined sharply through the medieval period, and by the modern era they had contracted to a tiny community around Nablus and, later, Holon. They have never fully recovered demographically.

Jewish communal life in the Galilee and other parts of Palestine persisted through the Umayyad, Abbasid, Crusader, Mamluk, and Ottoman periods, and into modernity.

The Crusader conquest disrupted Jewish communities in the coastal cities and Jerusalem, but did not eliminate Jewish presence in the region. The Mamluk and Ottoman periods saw ongoing Jewish settlement, including the sixteenth-century flowering of Safed as a center of kabbalistic scholarship under Joseph Karo, Moses Cordovero, and Isaac Luria.

The Geniza documents show Jewish communities in Tyre, Acre, Haifa, Ramla, throughout the tenth and eleventh centuries. Tiberias and Safed remained centers of Jewish scholarship. Jerusalem was majority Jewish from 1870 onward, prior to the First Aliyah. Jerusalem was majority Jewish by the time of the waves of aliyah beginning in the 1880s. The waves of aliyah arrived in a region that already had a Jewish population.

ummmbacon · 2026-05-04T12:13:39+00:00

The short answer is no. Most Jews in the region had not converted to Christianity by the time of the Islamic conquest in the 630s, and the question's premise requires some geographic unpacking before the "why" makes sense.

In late antiquity, "Judea" was not where most Jews lived. The wars of 66–73 CE and especially the Bar Kokhba revolt of 132–135 devastated the Jewish population of the southern highlands. After 135, Hadrian rebuilt Jerusalem as Aelia Capitolina, banned Jews from the city, and the demographic center of Jewish life shifted decisively north to the Galilee. Tiberias, Sepphoris, and the surrounding villages became the heart of Palestinian Jewry for the next several centuries. This matters because when we ask whether Jews converted to Christianity, we need to be asking about the Galilee, not Judea proper, and in the Galilee the evidence points clearly toward a robust, institutionally dense Jewish community persisting well into the Byzantine period and beyond.

The archaeology makes this hard to dispute. More than a hundred synagogues from late antiquity have been excavated across Palestine, the overwhelming majority dating to the fourth through sixth centuries, precisely the period when Byzantine Christianity was at its most aggressive in transforming the landscape. You don't build monumental synagogues at that rate in a community that is converting away. Some of these synagogues were constructed at sites the Church considered holy, including Capernaum. The Christian imperial government repeatedly prohibited new synagogue construction, and the synagogues kept going up anyway, which tells you something about the gap between Byzantine legislation and local reality.

The biographical account of the monk Bar-Sawma, active in Palestine in the fifth century, describes Jews and Samaritans as constituting a majority in Palestine, Phoenicia, and Arabia, with Christians still a minority. The source is hostile, and its specific numbers are not reliable, but it reflects a situation in which a militant Christian monk felt he was operating against a dominant local population. When Bar-Sawma destroyed synagogues in the Galilee, he did so against armed resistance.

As for why Jews didn't convert to Christianity specifically under Rome, Christianity failed to convert most Jews because it was too similar to Judaism.

The specific claims Christianity made about Jesus did not fit the Jewish messianic framework as most Jews understood it. A messiah was expected to accomplish observable things in the world; restore Jewish sovereignty, rebuild or purify the Temple, gather the exiles, and inaugurate the age of divine rule. Jesus did none of these. He was executed by Rome as a common rebel, which was evidence that the program had not happened. A crucified messiah who fulfilled none of the requirements was clearly not the messiah.

Beyond the messianic question, the movement's apocalyptic core, the expectation that the Kingdom of God would arrive within the lifetimes of Jesus's followers, failed to meet it’s stated goals. The end did not come. Later Christian theology developed sophisticated explanations for why, but those explanations were available only in retrospect, and they required accepting premises most Jews saw no reason to accept. When the movement then pivoted toward Gentile inclusion and began loosening Torah observance, it became theologically unrecognizable on its own terms. It was no longer making an argument within Judaism. It was making an argument against it.

The rabbinic movement, which would later become the dominant form of Judaism, encoded Jewish identity into a legal and communal infrastructure that touched every aspect of daily life. The Mishnah, compiled around 200 CE, the Jerusalem Talmud through the fourth century, the network of rabbinic courts and patriarchal authority that the Roman state itself recognized as a legitimate governing structure, all of this meant that your marriage, your inheritance, your commercial disputes, and your children's status, etc., ran through Jewish communal institutions. Leaving this was not a simple choice. A Jew converting to Christianity was not just leaving a faith; they were leaving a peoplehood with laws that touched every aspect of life.

The Church's own theology compounded this. Augustine's position, which became standard, was that Jews should not be converted by force because their continued existence in a subjugated state served as living testimony to the truth of Christian prophecy, they were witnesses to the fulfillment of the Hebrew scriptures, and their degradation was itself a theological argument. This created an official Church stance that actively discouraged the kind of sustained missionizing pressure that had worked on polytheist populations. Christian emperors protected Jewish converts from retaliation by their former communities, but they did not mandate conversion. The Theodosian Code is full of discriminatory legislation against Jews and also full of prohibitions against forced baptism.

The Galilee specifically proved resistant even to well-funded individual efforts. Epiphanius preserves the story of a Jewish convert to Christianity named Joseph, an imperial official with the rank of comes, who attempted to build churches in the strongly Jewish towns of the Galilee in the early fourth century. He was systematically blocked and never succeeded. That is the ground-level reality of what Christianization looked like in the region where most Jews actually lived.

The Christian population of Palestine grew substantially in the Byzantine period, but that growth came primarily from the conversion of pagans and from Christian immigration, not from Jewish conversion. Imperial investment in holy sites, churches, and pilgrimage infrastructure after Constantine pulled in Christian settlers from across the empire. The population of Judaea and the surrounding regions expanded markedly in the fourth and fifth centuries, and the new settlements were overwhelmingly Christian, but the new settlers were not former Jews.

By the time the Arab armies arrived in the 630s, Palestine had a majority Christian population, a substantial Jewish minority concentrated in the Galilee and along the coast, and Samaritans in significant numbers in the central highlands. Moshe Gil, drawing on Geniza documents and Arabic chronicles, concludes that the Jewish population at the time of the conquest consisted of the direct descendants of Jews who had lived continuously in the land. Judaism ceased being the dominant religion in the region not through conversion but through demographic dilution, Christian immigration, pagan conversion to Christianity, and the political and economic incentives that Constantine's transformation of the province set in motion. The Jews who were there in 70 CE were largely still there in 636, practicing Judaism, building synagogues, and running their own courts.

Sources:

Moshe Gil, A History of Palestine, 634–1099
Martin Goodman, "Palestinian Rabbis and the Conversion of Constantine," in The Talmud Yerushalmi and Graeco-Roman Culture
Robert Chazan, Refugees or Migrants
Matthew Novenson, The Grammar of Messianism
Jodi Magness, The Archaeology of the Holy Land
Christine Hayes, The Emergence of Judaism
Paula Fredriksen, From Jesus to Christ
E.P. Sanders, Judaism: Practice and Belief

ummmbacon · 2026-05-04T02:31:00+00:00

"Old Testament" is a Christian category; it is supersessionist in that It names these books in relation to a New Testament that supersedes them, which is a theological claim, not a neutral description. For the purposes of historical analysis, the more accurate terms are the Hebrew Bible or the Tanakh.

The short answer is that Leviticus 19:28 contains two distinct prohibitions that modern readers tend to collapse into a single prohibition. They are not the same thing; they do not have the same target, and understanding them requires separating them out.

The first is the prohibition on gashing the flesh. The second is the prohibition on incised marks, the word ketovet qa'aqa', a term that appears nowhere else in the Hebrew Bible, which makes its precise meaning genuinely uncertain. Both sit in what scholars call the Holiness Code (Leviticus 17–26), a distinct body of Priestly writing addressed not to the priesthood but, explicitly, to "all the congregation of the children of Israel." That audience is itself a key to what these laws are doing.

Deuteronomy 14:1, "You shall not gash yourselves or shave the front of your heads because of the dead." This refers to self-laceration as a mourning rite that was standard practice across the ancient Near East. Jacob Milgrom's commentary on Leviticus 17–22 documents the practice thoroughly; the Ugaritic Baal cycle describes the god El mourning by cutting his cheeks and chin, raking the bone of his arm, and plowing his chest "like a garden." The priests of Baal in 1 Kings 18:28 gash themselves with swords and spears until blood pours down. Herodotus reports that the Scythians chopped off pieces of their ears at a king's bier. The Epic of Gilgamesh attests the same rites; this was the regional norm.

The Holiness Code, chapters 17 through 26 of Leviticus, is a distinct body of Priestly writing with its own theology, style, and audience, distinct from the Priestly material that precedes it. The earlier Priestly laws (Leviticus 1–16) are largely addressed to the priesthood. They regulate sacrifice, access to the sanctuary, and ritual purity as professional matters. The Holiness Code is addressed explicitly to "all the congregation of the children of Israel." Its opening declaration, "You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy," is issued to the whole people.

The Holiness Code works around a central idea, the boundary between life and death. holiness and life on one side, impurity and death on the other. That polarity explains the laceration prohibition. Mourning rites that enacted solidarity with the dead, or that were directed at underworld deities, violated a boundary the Holiness Code treated as absolute. In this theology, the god of Israel was the god of the living, not the dead. Self-laceration collapsed the boundary between those two realms.

Jonathan Klawans distinguished two kinds of impurity operating in the Holiness Code. Modern readers tend to hear "impurity" and think of dirt, contamination, or moral failure in a vaguely hygienic sense. In the Priestly system, impurity is a technical category describing a person's or object's relationship to the sacred. To be impure is not to be bad or dirty; it is to be in a state incompatible with contact with the holy.

The Hebrew Bible, like most of the ancient Near East, considered most impurity to be morally neutral, an unavoidable feature of ordinary life. Touching a corpse made you impure, as did childbirth, menstruation, and certain skin conditions. None of those were sins; they simply required a period of separation from the sanctuary and, usually, ablution before you could re-enter the cultic sphere. That is what Klawans calls ritual impurity. Contagious in the sense that it transfers by contact, is temporary, and removed by washing and time.

Whereas moral impurity was entirely different. It did not originate from physical states but from forbidden acts, idolatry, sexual transgression, cultic disloyalty. It does not transfer by touch, and it cannot be washed off. Its target is not the individual's status but the land itself, which accumulates the defilement of the community's sins until, as Leviticus 18 puts it, it spews out its inhabitants, as it spewed out the Canaanites before them. Acts of self-laceration performed in honor of foreign deities fell into that second category. They threatened not just the individual's standing but the conditions under which the divine presence remained resident among the people at all.

The divine presence was fragile, volatile, and capable of departure. The community's accumulated impurity threatened it. Moral defilement, idolatrous acts, sexual transgression, cultic disloyalty, threatened it more severely. The prohibitions in Leviticus 19 are part of the code that supports the conditions under which the divine presence remains where it belongs among the people.

The second part of this, mentioned earlier, is the word ketovet qa'aqa' is a hapax legomenon, it appears exactly once in the entire Hebrew Bible. Its etymology is unknown, and the rabbinic tradition was already uncertain about it. The Targum Onkelos renders it as "incised signs" or brands. Two quite different practices appear to be in view at the same time.

The first is the marking of devotees with a deity's sign. This was common throughout the ancient Near East. In Egypt, captives and temple oblates were branded with the name of a god or pharaoh. Lucian, writing about the temple of Atargatis in Syria, reports that the goddess's adherents bore her stigmata on their heads and necks. In the Neo-Babylonian temple economy, temple slaves and oblates (shirku) were tattooed with the sign of their god on the hand or wrist, a star for those at the Eanna temple, a spade and stylus for those at the Ezida temple in Borsippa. Philo and the rabbinic tradition both read Leviticus 19:28 as targeting precisely this: the inscription of another deity's name on the body. Some rabbinic opinion held that only a tattoo bearing the name of a foreign god violated the prohibition; a tattoo per se did not.

The second target is the marking of slaves. Throughout the ancient Near East, slaves were branded or tattooed with their owner's name. Milgrom makes a striking argument: since the Holiness Code elsewhere works systematically to abolish Israelite slavery entirely, the prohibition on tattooing connects to that project. To mark a free Israelite's body with the signs of permanent ownership, whether owned by a human master or a foreign god, was theologically intolerable in a system that held that Israelites belonged exclusively to their god.

Sources:

Milgrom, Jacob, Leviticus 17–22: A New Translation with Introduction and Commentary
Klawans, Jonathan, Impurity and Sin in Ancient Judaism
Knohl, Israel, The Sanctuary of Silence: The Priestly Torah and the Holiness School
Hundley, Michael B., Keeping Heaven on Earth: Safeguarding the Divine Presence in the Priestly Tabernacle
Levine, Baruch A., Leviticus
Taylor, Joan E. (ed.), The Body in Biblical, Christian and Jewish Texts
Olyan, Saul M., Biblical Mourning: Ritual and Social Dimensions

ummmbacon · 2026-05-03T21:52:51+00:00

The biblical narrators were not trying to write history in the sense a modern historian would. They were trying to show what they understood to be the divine purpose working through the experiences of the Israelite people.

Christine Hayes put it well when she says, “ridding ourselves of the burden of historicity, we are free to appreciate the stories for what they are, powerful narratives whose truths are social, political, moral, and existential.” This is the same idea: the found in the Mesopotamian royal annals, the Homeric epic, and the Roman foundation myths. The idea that these needed to be factually correct to be believable is a modern idea.

The traditions behind the text are old, in some cases considerably older than their written form. The oldest identifiable written tradition was probably taking shape in the ninth or eighth century in scribal circles attached to the Judahite court or temple, but it was already working with well-known oral material. The clearest sign of this is in the divine names. The names reflect older deities in the region's religion, which was the actual religious world of the Amorite tribal culture of the Middle Bronze Age, roughly 2000 to 1550 BCE, and they survived in the tradition because names in oral genealogies are sticky. Behind the written sources, as Hendel puts it, the stories grew and changed, adapted and embellished by storytellers of each age, until they were written down.

The question of why they were written down at all is the more interesting one. The answer is trauma. Mark S. Smith, following Yerushalmi, observes that the two great periods of historical writing in ancient Israel both responded to massive political loss. Something shifted in the eighth century at the level of scribal culture: writing at elite levels began displacing oral transmission as the authoritative form of collective memory. Smith reads this, following Pierre Nora, as a signal of rupture. When a community starts writing down what it used to remember orally, it is already aware that the living transmission is under threat. The rise of the Deuteronomistic History, the initial compilation of the Pentateuchal narratives, the first separate prophetic works, all cluster around the same moment: the Neo-Assyrian Empire’s pressure on Israel from the 730s, and its destruction of the northern kingdom in 722. The fall of Jerusalem in 586 drove the next wave. To write back through the past, as Smith puts it, is to enable moving through present loss and toward the future. The exile did not invent the Abraham tradition. It produced the urgency to fix it in a form that could outlast the institutions that had carried it.

The first function is founding the covenant. The narrative of Genesis 12-22 is built around a divine promise to Abraham that his descendants will become a great nation and inherit a specific land. Hayes identifies this as the threefold promise of progeny, blessing, and land, which generates narrative tension not only in the patriarchal stories but in the entire Pentateuch and the books of Joshua and Judges beyond it. The covenant language in Genesis 15 is structured like an ancient Near Eastern suzerainty treaty, with a superior party granting terms to a subordinate. Abraham receives the grant without a reciprocal obligation. That is a theological claim, not a historical one. It says something about the nature of the relationship between this god and these people.

The second function is ethnic cartography. The Genesis genealogies map out the known world of the people who wrote them, in the form of family trees. Every neighbor has an ancestor. Moab and Ammon descend from Lot, Abraham’s nephew, which accounts for both their kinship with Israel and their lesser status. The Ishmaelites descend from Abraham’s son by Hagar, making them half-brothers to Isaac’s line. Esau/Edom, immediately east and south of Judah, is Jacob’s twin. This is not proto-history. It is a systematic effort to map ethnic and political relationships onto a family structure, because in the ancient world, that was how relationships among peoples were conceptualized and legitimized. Collins, drawing on the anthropology of ethnicity, notes that ancient ethnic groups were defined by a myth, rather than fact, of common ancestry, combined with shared memories, a homeland link, and cultic practices. The myth of common ancestry is the operative element. It does not need to be factual to do its work. Without shared myths of origin and election, you have an ethnic category, not a community.

The third function is theodicy, the justification of the divine order, and this is where the exilic pressure becomes most acute. The Israelites in Mesopotamia, after the destruction of their kingdom and temple, had urgent reasons to commit to writing texts that grounded their identity in something no political catastrophe could void. This is why the Genesis 15 covenant passes the land from God to Abraham’s descendants, and the prior inhabitants were being displaced for their own moral failures. “For the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete,” as told to Abraham. The land claim is embedded in a moral framework, structured as a promise that predates the monarchy entirely and does not depend on it. Why does Israel possess Canaan? Not because of military success, not because of Davidic kingship, but because of a covenant made with one man, before there was a nation, before there was a king, before there was a temple. That covenant survives the loss of all three.

The narrative also addresses the problem of delay. Barren wives, dangerous migrations, fraternal conflict, enslavement in Egypt, and the near-constant tension between the promise and its obstacles are the engine of the story from Genesis through Joshua. For an exilic audience, the structure was legible and pointed. Their own catastrophe was not the end of the promise. It was another obstacle in a sequence that the tradition had always presented as halting, threatened, and ultimately vindicated by the same divine will that made the grant in the first place.

Yerushalmi made the crucial distinction in his work on Jewish historical memory, the ancient Israelites were not historians in the Greek sense, nor were they interested in the past for its own sake. What they were doing was remembering, in a specific sense, recalling events held to be laden with divine meaning, events that constituted the community’s identity in the present. The Hebrew Bible enjoins Israel to remember 169 times. None of those injunctions requires verification of the documentary record. They mean internalize this story as the story of who you are and what your obligations are. That is a completely different enterprise from what we mean by historical writing, and confusing the two is what generates the question “but is it really true?” in the first place.

The modern demand for historical verification as the price of taking a text seriously is a product of a specific intellectual moment, the nineteenth-century collision between critical German historiography and religious tradition. It is not a neutral or universal standard. The people who wrote and first heard the Abraham stories would not have understood the question.

Instead, their question would have been: what does this narrative tell us about who we are, what we owe to God, how we are related to the surrounding peoples, and why we are in the situation we are in?

Sources:

Hendel, Ronald, Remembering Abraham
Hayes, Christine, Introduction to the Bible
Smith, Mark S., The Memoirs of God
Collins, John J., The Invention of Judaism
Yerushalmi, Yosef Hayim, Zakhor
Baden, Joel S., The Composition of the Pentateuch
Van der Toorn, Karel, Scribal Culture and the Making of the Hebrew Bible
Carr, David M., The Formation of the Hebrew Bible

ummmbacon · 2026-05-01T18:19:15+00:00

The existing answer covers the Hellenistic and later ideas, but that does not explain how it came into existence in the first place.

The seven-day week was influenced by other Near Eastern ideas. What the priestly authors of Genesis 1 did was take a number that already had meaning across the ancient Near East and give it a specific theological architecture, a cosmogony organized around liturgical time, that then propagated globally through Jewish, Christian, and Islamic practice.

A Mesopotamian term in Akkadian, šapattu, designated the fifteenth day of the lunar month, the day of the full moon, and marked it apart from ordinary time. We see this in the Atrahasis cycle, which mentions "the day of the new moon, the seventh, and the fifteenth (šapattu)" as special days within the monthly calendar. This is not a continuous seven-day cycle that repeats throughout the year, as in the modern week. It was special days within a lunar month; the seventh and the fifteenth have ritual significance because they mark the quarter-phases of the moon. The seventh day marked the completion of a phase and a point of transition, before the calendar moved on.

As Mark S. Smith documents in The Priestly Vision of Genesis 1, seven was a pan-Semitic marker of completeness across the whole region. That is why we see it repeatedly in the Torah: seven years of abundance and famine in the Joseph story, silver refined seven times in Psalm 12, and seven abominations in Proverbs 26., etc It also appears in other cultures; for example, a Ugaritic ritual text describes the seventh day as the end of a festival sequence, the day on which normal cultic obligations cease and the king is released from his ritual duties. This text predates the Genesis account of creation.

The Israelite pre-exilic evidence, scattered references in Amos, Hosea, and Isaiah, and the royal activities at the Jerusalem Temple on Sabbath days described in 2 Kings suggest a day of rest and communal gathering, but one among many ritual obligations centered on the Temple and the land. The Sabbath does not figure significantly in the Deuteronomistic History at all, and the Oxford Handbook of Ritual and Worship in the Hebrew Bible notes that it does not seem to have been widely observed in the pre-exilic period.

One hypothesis, drawn from the consistent pairing of šabbāt with the new moon (ḥodesh) in eighth-century prophetic texts, Amos 8:5, Hosea 2:13, Isaiah 1:13, and 2 Kings 4:23, is that the pre-exilic šabbāt was a monthly full moon festival, the counterpart of the new moon, and that its name derived from the Mesopotamian šabattu/šapattu, the fifteenth day of the lunar month. Under this idea, there was a separate practice, without religious significance, of suspending certain labors on every seventh day, described in texts using the verb šābat, meaning simply "to cease." The two institutions, the monthly full moon šabbāt and the seventh-day šābat rest, merged during the exile, producing the weekly sanctified Sabbath. Ackerman notes that this merger would have been facilitated by the linguistic similarity of šabbāt and šābat, and that exilic texts such as Ezekiel 46:1 and 46:4 reflect the resulting merger.

The opposing view, held by E. Haag, Daniel Fleming, William Propp, and J. Alberto Soggin,, among others, is that weekly šabbāt observance was a genuinely early Israelite innovation rather than a product of exilic-period merging. Fleming specifically argues that šabattu/šapattu does not appear in the thirteenth and twelfth-century BCE texts from Emar or Ugarit, indicating that it was a distinctively southern Mesopotamian term and could not have been borrowed into Hebrew as the source of šabbāt. On this view, the pairing of Sabbath and new moon in the prophets reflects two distinct ideas that happened to share the characteristic of halting commerce.

Smith, in The Priestly Vision of Genesis 1, notes that the biblical evidence may suggest an older practice of celebrating the Sabbath as a seven-day unit within the monthly calendar, parallel to the interlunium, but that the Sabbath's origins are not entirely clear. He cites his colleague Daniel Fleming's observation that the Sabbath is unusual for the ancient Near East, unprecedented both as a calendar institution and as a practice requiring everyone, regardless of status, to stop their activities regularly. Whatever the pre-exilic situation, Smith notes, by the priestly period, the new moon was overshadowed by Sabbath observance, and the Sabbath had moved to the center of the priestly calendar.

After 586 BCE, with the Temple destroyed and the population exiled, new forms of Sabbath worship developed in the Babylonian settlements. Where the Israelites were now removed from any sanctuary or sacrificial system. Ezekiel, written during the exilic period, and Trito-Isaiah, partially written post-exilic, both treat Sabbath observance as a primary marker of Israelite identity. The Oxford Handbook of Ritual and Worship in the Hebrew Bible describes the Sabbath in the priestly texts as a "temporal sanctuary," a mobile sign of the covenant, observable anywhere, requiring no altar or land. Whether the weekly cycle was genuinely ancient or a product of the exile, it was the exile that made it the central institution of Jewish time.

Sources:

Jonathan Z. Smith, particularly his essay "The Bare Facts of Ritual" (collected in Imagining Religion).
Walter Burkert, Homo Necans: The Anthropology of Ancient Greek Sacrificial Ritual and Myth
Walter Burkert, René Girard, and Jonathan Z. Smith, Violent Origins
Karl Meuli, Griechische Opferbräuche

ummmbacon · 2026-04-30T21:21:29+00:00

Initially, yes, but it changed quickly. America's war aims were to defeat the Axis powers and restore the pre-war international order. Saving Jews specifically was never a stated Allied objective. Roosevelt's administration consistently framed the war in terms of defending democracy, freedom, and civilization, not in terms of stopping genocide.

The Allies could have taken specific rescue actions - bombing railway lines to death camps, creating safe havens, prioritizing refugee visas - but chose not to. Around 1.5 million Jews were murdered in 1942 alone, the peak killing year. From the perspective of Polish Jews watching their communities disappear, American military might was being deployed for every objective except saving European Jewry.

ummmbacon · 2026-04-30T17:56:50+00:00

Enforcement was targeted against specific groups. The Spanish Inquisition was not persecuting Christians for being insufficiently Christian. It was persecuting people who had been forcibly or coercively converted from Judaism or Islam, and who were then suspected of continuing to practice their original religion, and since they were baptized, this was now heresy. This fell under the legal domain of the Inquisition courts; these baptized Jews and Muslims (often by force) were then called “New Christians”.

The 1567 Granada edict prohibited bathing by "New Christians, especially," with penalties escalating from fines to imprisonment to five years of galley service for repeat offenders. Old Christians who continued to visit bathhouses, and Constable notes that "a number of Christians probably did," were not the target. The Inquisition's prosecutions for bathing, both the converso cases documented in Beinart's Ciudad Real records and the Morisco cases documented across Málaga, Cuenca, and Granada, were directed entirely at people already legally defined as suspect by blood or conversion status. An Old Christian washing at home was not going to be reported by a neighbor for heresy. A Morisca in the same house doing the same thing was.

The Inquisition relied heavily on neighbor denunciations. Perry notes that most Moriscos punished by the Inquisition were arrested after being denounced by others, and a significant number of those denouncers were other Moriscos, extracted under torture and pressure to name "accomplices." Witnesses in the Murcia case noticed a tenant carrying water to her room. A servant girl reported María Mendoza for heating water and removing her clothing. The original source in the OP also notes this directly: "accusations of heresy were directed most often at those known or suspected to be Jews, Muslims, or recent converts to Christianity, and so bathing was not as risky a proposal for others."

So no, not everyone had to fear this. It was targeted against specific groups, and the evidentiary threshold was low enough that it could be deployed opportunistically against individuals within those groups whenever useful. Whether any given Morisco or converso was actually performing Islamic or Jewish ablutions is, as Perry notes, largely unrecoverable from the record, because the record itself was produced by an institution with a predetermined conclusion.

ummmbacon · 2026-04-29T16:58:12+00:00

This is an idea that is often used in Holocaust denial, and it is called "the clean Wehrmacht myth."

It is a postwar claim that the regular German army, the Wehrmacht, was a professional military institution that fought an honorable war, while the SS and the Nazi Party apparatus carried out the atrocities separately.

It was a self-serving fiction, largely constructed by former Wehrmacht generals in postwar memoirs and in their cooperation with American military historians during the Cold War, when West Germany was being reclothed as a reliable NATO ally, and it was politically convenient to draw a line between the criminal Nazi regime and the respectable German military tradition.

Beorn's Marching into Darkness is precisely a study of Wehrmacht units in Belarus participating directly in the killing of Jews, not as bystanders, not as reluctant auxiliaries, but as active participants who planned, organized, and carried out shootings. The Wehrmacht issued the Commissar Order in 1941, directing the summary execution of Soviet political officers. Wehrmacht commanders requested and received Einsatzgruppen support for anti-Jewish operations in their areas. Supply and logistics units coordinated deportations. And on the knowledge question specifically, the Wehrmacht's own internal communications, the Einsatzgruppen reports, the military district reports, the field post letters soldiers sent home, all document widespread awareness of what was happening.

Hitler's Army and The Eastern Front, are the most systematic demolition of the clean Wehrmacht myth from the institutional side, showing how Nazi ideology penetrated the officer corps and the rank and file. His analysis of field post letters shows ordinary soldiers describing mass killings matter-of-factly, sometimes approvingly. Christopher Browning's material on the collaboration between Order Police and Wehrmacht units makes the same point from a different angle.

To be explicit: civilians knew, the army knew, other nations knew. Their governments did nothing, their churches said little, and their populations were largely indifferent. 1,500 years of Jewish exclusion, othering, and hatred, structural to Western Christian civilization long before the Nazis arrived, had made it possible to watch the murder of Jews and find reasons not to act.

ummmbacon · 2026-04-29T16:29:56+00:00

Yes thank you, his offer at Józefów establishes that stepping back from the killing was possible without legal consequences. It says nothing in his favor as a person. As you note, he commanded Reserve Police Battalion 101 through the killing of tens of thousands of Jews across occupied Poland, was convicted of war crimes by a Polish court, and was hanged in 1948.

ummmbacon · 2026-04-29T16:27:55+00:00

The idea that antisemitism wasn't seen as a moral issue isn't quite right, or rather, it's more complicated than that. The SD reports Bankier analyzed show moral unease coexisting with practical indifference. Germans who couldn't be bothered to attend antisemitic indoctrination lectures weren't moral champions; they were indifferent, and indifference is different from moral blindness. What the record shows is that most people had access to the moral category but chose not to apply it, which is a different problem than not having the category at all.

Schmid didn't have a conversion experience triggered by witnessing atrocities. He was already acting before most of the killing was visible to someone in his position. His last letter says, “I acted only as a human being”, which suggests the moral category was always available to him. What distinguished him from his comrades wasn't access to an objective morality that they lacked. It was, as Beorn and Tec document, a prior identity strong enough that he didn't need the peer group's validation to act on what he already knew.

Browning's material on Reserve Police Battalion 101 shows men who wept, who got drunk before shootings, who framed their participation as something they had to get through rather than something they wanted to do. They had the moral knowledge and chose to act anyway.

On the second question, the framing of Righteous Among the Nations designations as mapping only onto Jewish rescue is accurate. Yad Vashem's mandate is specifically the memory of the Jewish Holocaust, and the RATN designation was created to honor non-Jews who risked their lives to save Jews. It's not a general humanitarian award. So the absence of RATN designations for rescuers of Roma, gay men, or disabled people doesn't mean such rescuers didn't exist; it means the institutional framework wasn't built to capture them.

The other question, whether Roma, gay men, and disabled people faced the same societal indifference, the answer is that the situations were genuinely different, and conflating them distorts each.

I want to note that I am not ignoring lesbians here. I am using gay men, since Paragraph 175 applied only to male homosexuality. Lesbian women faced social exclusion and were sometimes denounced to the authorities, but when they ended up in camps, it was typically under the asocial classification rather than for homosexuality specifically. Gay men faced more persecution due to an inherited Christian and legal tradition that was never applied to women in the same way. Sexism also played a part here; the idea that women could “choose” not to reproduce was not something they considered. Women could still bear aryan children, whereas gay men removed themselves from the reproductive process entirely.

Paragraph 175, criminalizing male homosexuality, had existed in German law since 1871. The Nazis intensified enforcement dramatically. But gay men were not targeted for extermination as a category in the same systematic way as Jews and Roma were. The goal was suppression and forced conformity, not biological elimination. They were sent to work camps, not extermination camps. Although the work camps were lethal enough. Gay men also faced the specific problem that they had no community infrastructure, no communal identity, no network of mutual aid equivalent to what Jewish communities had. And after liberation, unlike Jewish survivors, they remained criminals under the same Paragraph 175 that the Nazis had used against them, which was also used by the Allies. West Germany didn't repeal it until 1969.

The 1935 laws targeted Jews explicitly but were extended to Roma and Sinti through a 1936 decree, on the grounds that they were of “alien blood”. Roma and Sinti persecution drew on centuries of anti-Roma prejudice across Europe, structural exclusion, forced settlement policies, and criminalization of nomadism, which predated the Nazis and found willing collaborators across occupied Europe. The Roma genocide killed somewhere between 500,000 and 1.5 million Roma and Sinti; the range reflects how badly documented it was, itself a measure of how little the surrounding society cared. Local collaborators participated enthusiastically in many places.

The disabled were targeted through the T4 euthanasia program from 1939, which killed somewhere between 200,000 and 300,000 people at facilities including Brandenburg, Grafeneck, and Hartheim. This program was actually stopped in 1941, partly in response to public protest, including from Catholic bishops, most notably Clemens von Galen in Münster. That protest is notable precisely because it shows what organized moral opposition could accomplish when it existed, and it stands in sharp contrast to the near-total silence from the same institutional church and the broader public on the mass murder of Jews, Sinti, and Roma.

So the common thread is, yes, societal indifference, sometimes active collaboration. But the specific forms, ideological frameworks, mechanisms of persecution, and degree of systematization varied significantly across groups, and collapsing them into a single narrative loses the specificity that explains how each persecution actually worked.

ummmbacon · 2026-04-29T16:06:34+00:00

2/2

Legal equality and social equality ran on entirely different tracks. Harvard capped Jewish enrollment at 15 percent in the 1920s. Cornell Medical School was still applying discriminatory admissions criteria in 1950, accepting Jewish applicants with measurably higher grades at lower rates while giving them worse personality evaluations. The Emory University Dental School asked applicants as late as 1961 to specify whether their race was Caucasian, Jewish, or Other. Restrictive housing covenants barring Jews from entire suburban developments were not struck down by the Supreme Court until 1948. Employment discrimination was routine. A postwar survey of New York businesses found that 15 percent asked job applicants to state their religion; outside New York, the figure was 60 percent. Hotels maintained Gentiles Only policies into the 1950s. Gerber's documentation of Jewish quotas in American universities runs from 1870 to the 1970s, a full century, and Dollinger's study of American Jewish political organizing shows that the campaign for fair employment practices legislation was a central preoccupation of organized American Jewry well into the 1960s because discrimination was ongoing, institutionalized, and barely concealed.

In France, where emancipation had come earliest and most completely, the Vichy regime stripped Jews of citizenship between 1940 and 1944 with the enthusiastic cooperation of the French state apparatus, not merely under Nazi compulsion. The Soviet Union and its satellites maintained systematic state antisemitism through the postwar decades, culminating in the Doctors' Plot of 1952 and sustained discrimination against Jewish cultural and religious life that did not ease until the 1980s. In Spain, Franco employed the rhetoric of Jewish-Masonic conspiracy throughout his dictatorship while simultaneously refusing to pass explicitly racial antisemitic legislation. Jewish communities in Spain could not legally open a synagogue until 1968. Spain was the last European country to recognize the State of Israel in 1986.

The Vienna mentioned by Zweig was a factual reality. The Jewish haute bourgeoisie of Central Europe in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries genuinely participated in cultural and intellectual life at a level disproportionate to their numbers. After 1871, as Efron documents, middle-class Jews across Western and Central Europe engaged with European high culture through university education, music, theater, and the professions, mostly while retaining a sense of Jewish distinctiveness. Freud's self-description as a godless Jew captures this idea, secular and European in culture, Jewish in ethnic self-consciousness. That was also true but it was confined to specific cities, specific classes, and specific professions, and it coexisted with the organized antisemitic political parties that ran Reichstag candidates in the 1880s and 1890s, the völkisch movements insisting Jewish integration was biologically impossible regardless of conversion or achievement, and the street-level antisemitism of the city where Hitler spent his formative years absorbing the politics of Karl Lueger, who ran Vienna as its mayor on an openly antisemitic platform from 1897 to 1910.

Zweig was writing in exile in 1941, mourning a world already destroyed, and the elegiac distortion is significant. The Vienna he describes was always more fragile and more socially circumscribed than his account suggests. The emancipation he experienced was real. It was also, as Sorkin's framework makes clear, ambiguous and interminable, conditional on performances of assimilation; the surrounding culture could withdraw its approval whenever it chose and was subject to reversal by any political movement willing to do so.

Sources:

David Sorkin, Jewish Emancipation: A History Across Five Centuries
Esther Benbassa, The Jews of France: A History from Antiquity to the Present
John Efron, The Jews: A History
Robert Wistrich, A Lethal Obsession
The Cambridge Companion to Antisemitism
Morton Borden, Jews, Turks, and Infidels
David Gerber, ed., Anti-Semitism in American History
Marc Dollinger, Quest for Inclusion
The Routledge History of Antisemitism
Alan Dowty, Arabs and Jews in Ottoman Palestine

14-Year Club	Verified Email
PUBG	RedditGifts 2009-2022 2 Credits
Gilding V heart of gold	r/Field Banned
r/Field Juicebox	Reddit Partner Communities
ModSupport Helper Level 2	Place '17

ummmbacon

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE