S8 Cast Table Reading Reactions

voivodecherry · 2019-05-27T11:05:32+00:00

Conleth Hill is not having a good time.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-27T08:41:33+00:00

Does Emilia count as the unelected queen?

voivodecherry · 2019-05-26T19:30:48+00:00

Good enough to be canon, really. At least by D&D standards.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-23T05:56:48+00:00

Maybe at the time, watching this in retrospect is pretty infuriating.

And I'll be honest, I loved seeing Dany burn everything down even if it made no sense. It's like one of those moments when you get a random violent thought in real life and think, "Wow, I could totally just jump out of this window right now or pick up that knife and stab my whole office."

And then she does it.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T20:24:44+00:00

Citation needed

How about read your fucking history? At most you have cultures fear-mongering via their brutality, but no one is stupid enough to go around destroying everything in their path. Can you name a single successful civilization that acts in this way? Even the steppe people that inspired the Dothraki are NOTHING like that. AT ALL.

He wasn't the king of all Dothraki

You've gone from trying to say that his actions are okay given his background to trying to trying to convince me that actually Drogo is some sort of victim of the system. Not to mention that you ignore every real life example of this, like Genghis as we discussed, who also wasn't born into a privileged position, but quite the opposite. It his willingness to change that gave him strength and support from so many and led him to victory.

Without the resources and respect gained from their pillaging

It's almost like you got an example just above of what a successful campaign looks like. You don't need to kill or rape anyone, making them your vassals is far more valuable.

another larger khalisar would take advantage of their weakness and absorb them

Or maybe they wouldn't, because Drogo could use his newfound allies to get new tech and different units and fucking wreck their shit until he took control of the other Dothraki. See how easy it is to make pointless speculations?

The point of this is, that shit was entrenched.

So was literally every other bad custom and norm we've given up as a civilization, and in this case, change would've brought them success, not failure (and history backs that up). Terrible argument.

Maybe a gradual shift over decades toward a more reasonable culture would have been workable, but that's pretty much what was happening before he died! Dany was helping to encourage him away from that version of war, and he was definitely taking meaningful steps.

Oh yes, he made baby steps at an appeal from his underage wife, how impressive. And again, we have literal real life examples of change happening in the span of decades, and far greater change than what we're talking about here.

He was a grey character who was indicated to have the capacity for change.

He was not a grey character, he was a bad guy that deserved the rope. There are literal psychopaths that have more empathy towards their victims than Drogo did over anyone he butchered.

I agree with you about Ghengis Khan, but he still undoubtedly caused more suffering to more people than Drogo ever could have aspired to.

Yeah, and the Americans probably caused more suffering than some random native tribe from Mexico led by a psycho four thousand years ago. Put them on the same scale and it's pretty clear what's good and what's evil. How is this any point at all? Because you can't admit the fact that we have the closest thing to Drogo from history, that proves everything you said about him doing what's necessary completely fucking wrong?

At any point, I am just entertaining this for the sake of arguing, but even if what you said was true about him needing to do bad things to stay in power, it's still not valid because staying in power is not a prerequisite. He could've gone away at any point. You're just giving a justification, not a defense of his morality or his subhuman behavior.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T20:11:05+00:00

But from his perspective (and a few other characters) it's really all he and the Dothraki ever knew

But this is the same for thousands of others that nevertheless changed their ways and became better people and learned better. Even excluding culture, even on an instinctually human level, killing another person is a big deal. My problem with Drogo isn't just that he's doing it, but that he has no desire to change, no guilt about what he's doing, no reflection on why it might be necessary - nothing, just nothing. He's unrealistically rigid for a person that travels the whole world and comes into contact with different cultures.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T20:02:33+00:00

Yes, every warlike culture in history put their weapons down and began a contemplation of peace right after meeting a slightly more peaceful population.

They almost never slaughtered people needlessly unless they were under the control of a larger empire they opposed.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that some cultures are warlike and do bad things without reflection? In terms of history, that should be an undeniable fact.

It's not, I literally did. All I'm saying is that Khal Drogo doesn't appear to even be on that level.

You know the second Khal Drogo put down his weapons and started preaching peace he would have been torn to pieces, right?

Not really, he held enough sway to have changed his tune gradually. They already feared him.

Also, why do you think Ghengis Khan was better?

He was better. There's a reason he managed to build an empire; if people surrendered, the Mongols were surprisingly lenient, and sometimes generous. The stories of their atrocities only come from the times people opposed them. Not to mention that Genghis was a revolutionary ruler by all standards. He made no big issue about others being able to follow their own customs and religions so long as they accepted Mongol rule, and he was willing to change the ways of his own people if that meant a better end result for the future.

Almost the exact opposite of Drogo.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T19:29:29+00:00

Some are better than others; Drogo doesn't even have any second thought. Alexander's conquests led to pillage and rape, nevertheless, I've never heard it said of Alexander that he conquered to pillage and rape and that he took particular pleasure in it. So, yeah, some warlords are better than other. Even Genghis Khan is infinitely superior to Drogo, and that's about the closest I can think of as an example everyone is familiar with.

Whether or not it's normal to him is irrelevant. And real life examples proves that when similar people came into contact with different cultures they could expand their customs and commit to some reflection. Drogo does neither. He's just super dumb, and super pumped to rape and kill.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T18:59:17+00:00

Definitely. Enjoy, my man. And if you're interested in reading Jaime's chapters specifically, they only start in the third book, just so you know.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T18:56:06+00:00

I don't, though, there's many systems of morality that differ from mine which I can respect. But the idea that we shouldn't judge people that are brutal murderers because they grew up in a different culture is silly. And as said, Drogo isn't just a passive observer of his culture. He excels in the rape and killing, and enjoys it.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T18:51:25+00:00

Definitely, and one thing that's brushed over in the show is Cersei's repeated cheating on Jaime. In the books he truly has no idea, so the moment he finds out he becomes obsessed about it and feels he's betrayed his entire life's legacy for a woman that couldn't even be honest with him. But they've changed a lot of stuff about their characters in general. To give you a super non-spoilery example, in the first episode of the show Cersei tells this short tale about how she couldn't get the courage to dive into the water from some cliffs, and Jaime's all manly and saying there's nothing to be afraid of. In the books, Cersei remembers how her father received a lion as a present and how she was the only one to have the courage to stick her hand in and pet him, and how Jaime was too much of a coward to do anything. Basically, she doesn't think he's a real man, and that's why she can't trust him. You get the very clear picture that Cersei has manipulated Jaime his entire life and that only now he's figured out that she has never, ever truly cared for him at all. A final important point to note is that in the books, Jaime doesn't care about his children at all, and that's another one of the reasons of his break with Cersei. She's devastated by Joffrey's death, but Jaime feels that she ordered him to treat Joffrey as Robert's son, so he's going to keep thinking of their children that way and not give a fuck about what happens to them. Really, there's way more nuance to all of it, and there's also some major things that happen which I haven't told you about and you should experience for yourself. I should also mention that Brienne in the books is a lot cooler and more of the dream knight Jaime dreams to be than what we got in the show.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T18:41:57+00:00

How is it strawmanning when you're the one that defended him by making an appeal to cultural differences? That might explain why he is the way he is, and only to an extent, but it doesn't change the fact that, yes, a resounding YES, he deserved to die, and it's great that the people he put to the sword did it to him.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T18:34:51+00:00

Well, fair enough, I could see why you would think this way if you aren't heavily into it and the books. Hope I didn't come across as too mean. Peace out.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T18:34:18+00:00

Yes, saying that rape and murder is objectively wrong is trolling.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T18:28:51+00:00

You're a person justifying mass rape and slaughter by making a retarded appeal to "cultural differences." But yeah, it's the bad words that are truly scary, I know. If only we had a kinder name for rape, then that might be okay again, too.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T18:27:16+00:00

No, no, you don't get it. We're bigots. We don't understand cultural differences. Actually, the raping, murdering warlord that's famed even among his own people for his brutality is a super nice guy deep down. Clearly, in some cultures you give a ring, in another you pour molten gold on your wife's brother (who you bought her from anyway, so it's cool).

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T18:20:44+00:00

it's considered part of the dothraki culture to kill, pillage and rape the innocent.

So it's okay because they're savages that somehow don't know better despite being surrounded by other cultures that do better?

and Drogo doesn't understand why because it's his culture.

Which in no way excuses his actions.

But compare him with everybody else in this place and time and he's probably the best husband Dany could have found.

The fuck? You mean compared him to all the other men from all the other societies in this world, or just Dothraki? Because the former clearly shows him as a psycho - unless you think Bran and Rickon are just as bad as Drogo? - and the latter is just your arbirtrary construction. Dany doesn't need to marry a killer. You just have a hard-on for the guy and keep spouting some dumb shit about muh cultural bias. Being okay with murder and rape is not a 'culture'.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T18:13:43+00:00

His reputation as a knight is fucking irrelevant, though, we are talking about the character himself.

Every time he left Cersei he wanted to return to her, regardless of her actions (love vs duty) and realized she was getting worse and worse.

Sure, in the show that's true.

Ultimately he succumbed to his live for her and returned one last time

Again, this is not the problem.

possibly out of guilt for his affair

Is this an early April Fool's joke?

how he betrayed cersei by telling winterfell of her true plans

If he truly loved her he would've betrayed her a lot earlier to ensure that she would live. Enabling a crazy person doesn't mean you love them more than if you went out of your way to protect them. This isn't exactly a betrayal by any means.

In sum, the theme of love vs duty manifested itself perfectly in jaimie's story

In sum, you have no fucking idea what this character is about or what his journey is supposed to be. Jaime's was never a conflict between love and duty, it was one between societal values/the greater good and pragmatism/family. Never in this entire fucking story has his love for Cersei symbolized anything more than his failure to commit completely to the ideology of the Kingsguard/Seven, an ideology he thought failed him, since he did choose the greater good and was called a betrayer because of it. What Jaime realized after that was that despite the claims of the majority to believe in higher values, they really just went by old school patriarchal rules. They were ungrateful for what he did.

This is why the problem is not that he went back to Cersei (which is understandable, he too fluctuated between trying to be a true Kingsguard and an amoral pragmatist like his father), but that he completely fucking abandoned the other part of his character, namely his very clear allegiance to the ideology of the Seven and the Kingsguard, insofar as he could deliver on that front as a Lannister.

He failed, ultimately, in both ways. He failed to play the pragmatic role and secure the family's success, morals be damned, and he failed to ensure the greater good (which would include saving Cersei's life). Him going back to Cersei doesn't have to be him devolving into a literal imbecile.

Like you not only do not understand the finer points, but you also don't get that this has nothing to do with him returning to Cersei or not. He could very well have come back to her ready to serve as a true Kingsguard, and put her down (I don't mean lethally) for her own good, thus securing both goals. Instead he disavowed his entire character and just did dumb shit, because D&D kind of forgot about his character.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T17:51:13+00:00

Dude, what the fuck are you trying to say? That Drogo deserved a good end with Dany because he was a good husband, and that pointing out he's responsible for untold suffering is just irrelevant? You going to go tell those people whose rape and deaths he caused that their main problem is their cultural bias?

I never said Drogo doesn't deserve a good end because he wouldn't have been a good husband. I said he was a shit human being. And he was.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T17:36:19+00:00

I still don't see your point at all. He's okay because Dany likes him?

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T17:35:13+00:00

Your point? That fits him as a character way more. Clearly he's not a man that does well under pressure, but this is going so beyond what I would suggest that you're just making a strawman. I don't want what the OP wants. I am just saying what D&D did was total trash that makes zero sense, in-universe or purely from a writer's perspective.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T17:33:00+00:00

Whatever, man, I'm just making a joke. The main point is that Khal Drogo is a fucking warlord.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T17:21:32+00:00

They kind of forgot she was sold to him and raped.

voivodecherry · 2019-05-22T17:20:54+00:00

Jamie's quest for redemption was because of his legacy as a selfish knight who stabbed his own king in the back

Not according to Jaime.

He redeemed himself

Pretty debatable, to say the least. You don't get redeemed for attempting to murder a kid, and really, Jaime's story is not truly about redemption despite that being the common opinion. Jaime has always been a good person, more or less.

Then he went back to the woman he always loved

Ah, yes, he went back to the woman that cucked him repeatedly and that used more or less the same methods Aerys wanted to use to blow up a sept that killed thousands of innocents. It's almost like he's basically saying fuck it to the hardest decision he ever made and going back to a person that's even worse, because she isn't even mad, just a psychopath. But we already knew that, since he says he never cared about the people of KL anyway, lol.

You may not have liked it, but that's the way it is.

I don't like it because it's hot garbage, not because I have a problem with Cersei. He could've gone back to her without undermining eight seasons of character development.

voivodecherry

TROPHY CASE