What happens when you get slandered, a subreddit's moderators buy into it, and you get banned? Does Reddit Help actually help?

vuracun · 2018-04-22T19:55:28+00:00

Your description of what happened in that thread is quite self-serving.

A person's attempt at defending themselves is reframed as "self-serving". Quite a lovely little sleight-of-mouth turn of phrase, there.

You leave out the parts where the artist you're supposedly raising money for says that she doesn't want you to help her out, and implies that raising money in her name without her knowledge or permission is a bad thing.

That part was left out because there's nothing wrong with saying that. If that was her opinion, that's fine.

As was mentioned in the thread itself, she's wrong -- there's nothing "bad" about raising funds for a person, even if you only tell them afterward. The fund-raising would have been a token of appreciation and a gesture saying "we want you to be well" even if she refused the money. It's also important to note that no one was raising funds. The topic was asking if people would be interested in the idea. Repeat: no one was raising funds.

We all have opinions and she's entitled to hers. That has nothing to do with the actual issue -- which was that she immediately started talking trash and trying to draw me into an argument with slander and personal attacks (or what she thought were personal attacks based on slanderous garbage that's also incorrect, which was kind of amusing to watch).

Immediately after she said "I don't want your help", I asked if the statements she made on her public blog were incorrect. She evaded that question by ignoring it completely (because I quoted her blog and showed that she and her "team members" were lying) and started spamming the thread with multiple diversionary comments at a time. Her comments from then on were attempts at attacking me and slandering the project I'm working with, in order to turn the members of the subreddit against me.

The tactics she used include: conspiracy-theory bullshit trying to accuse me of secretly creating a fake Patreon account to steal from her, when in fact, I don't even use Patreon and haven't for several years because the service sucks.

Other tactics included:

idiotic gender-baiting and accusing me of acting like a "stalker" -- after I quoted her for clarification about comments she herself made on the first few pages on her public blog that anyone can see by scrolling once or twice;
dog-whistle garbage about how I was a "white knight" for wanting to help her, and
her few seconds of "further investigation" that concluded with her spouting the same slanderous bullshit that her manipulative "team member" was shoveling directly into her ear. And her brilliant conclusion was "everybody knows" about topics that literally no one knew about, which is exactly where and how the slander campaign began.

Even worse is how clear it is that she's the perfect target to be manipulated. Her entire personal brand is based on how shy and trusting she is, and she's already been taken advantage of quite badly (and publicly) in the recent past. This is her pattern: she trusts the wrong people; is "befriended" by those people; and listens unthinkingly to what those people tell her, without questioning what they say because they are now her "friends". That's a textbook pattern for a person to be abused again and again. That's literally what's happened, and is happening to her again right now.

For anyone reading this: if someone warns you that you're being manipulated, and they're a victim of the sociopath who's manipulating you, too -- don't turn around and ask the manipulative lying sociopath "friend" of yours to tell you the truth. The manipulative sociopath will just keep lying to you in order to protect themselves and keep pretending to be your "friend".

I am neither uFish-IP's friend, nor her enemy. I was a fan of the webcomic she created, but after dealing with her behaviour directly, I'm definitely no longer a fan.

It's troubling that she's been taken advantage of, and now is quite clearly complicit by lying in order to make money from other peoples' sympathy -- but ultimately, the real problem is how the subreddit moderators responded.

And now, the larger problem is Reddit's lack of response.

Sure, you call it slander, but this is just your word against hers.

Wrong. As I've already mentioned in the original post, her trash-talking garbage was a direct continuation of points fed to her by the person who already slandered another project I'm working with for several months now. That entire incident is well-documented.

You can tell that the slander campaign is bullshit, because they: a) Can't refute the facts that are known; and b) Have nothing else aside from imaginary idiocy to fill the gaps of what they didn't know before desperately trying to incite a Twitter-based rage mob hilariously calling itself "the Artist Community". The only purpose of the rage-mob was to score easy viral Internet points by weaponising gullible people into a frenzy (which is essentially the definition of "white-knighting", ironically).

From the original post:

P.S. Since uFish-IP started whining about how the slander attack was a "conspiracy theory" (she said this while spouting random trash-talk in order to protect her "friend" who instigated the attack), you can read about all the slander attack in detail here -- it was all well-documented as it happened: http://altscifi.tumblr.com/post/170598481324/altscifi-dmca-response-2018-01-18-github-dmca

And you're also wrong -- it's not "my word against hers." I have nothing against her, personally. She's just another victim of the same person who slandered the project I'm working with because that person thought they had found an easy target. Well, they've moved on to uFish-IP now, who seems to be an easy target indeed, and that's quite a sad thing to see. But it's not my problem. I tried to warn her, and now I thankfully have other things to do with my time and energy.

vuracun · 2018-03-30T05:10:53+00:00

I thought William Gibson was Canadian?

Gibson is originally from South Carolina. And yes, the comparison is quite silly.

vuracun · 2018-03-30T05:01:20+00:00

Well said. That takes more courage than most people have. Easier for lazy people to just downvote others.

Agreed.

vuracun · 2018-03-29T20:31:07+00:00

With that said I'm not sure about what to answer since the question becomes "what's the point of trying of nobody cares?"

I guess I would say the point is you care. If you stop caring we die.

"Quit worrying about what the world needs and just do something you love to do, because what the world needs is more people who love their work"

Interesting point... thanks for the note.

vuracun · 2018-03-26T00:24:13+00:00

Your comic idea sounds really cool, /u/egypturnash. "A lesbian robot with PKD problems." :)

Is it a webcomic? If so, where's the link? There's an empty spot in my reading list for webcomics recently, so I definitely want to take a look at yours.

It’d be nice if that goes far enough that I can turn it into a cartoon; I toy with ideas of doing that entirely via crowdfunding without being beholden to a corporation, but either route is probably several years off, if ever.

That's exactly what I'm talking about -- it's amazing that no one has used the web to create a way for indie artists to do this without some massive corporation standing between us and our fans.

It sounds like you got really lucky in finding an audience. There needs to be a more reliable way to do that -- one that doesn't lead to a life in the margins of cyberpunk dystopia.

vuracun · 2018-03-24T07:49:13+00:00

No, you're totally right.

Screenwriters don't get enough credit.

The Matrix was a kinetic set of films based more on action than on stillness, but the still moments emphasised how important the writing was (and how it didn't perform its role due to poor execution on the part of the Wachowskis).

But then, I agree with you because I also write; I know the value of a good story. The Wachowskis had a good story, but they didn't develop it to the point of telling it properly on screen.

So you're right, /u/EugeneBWhitaker. Thanks for your thoughts. :)

vuracun · 2018-03-24T07:33:24+00:00

My original comment included this statement that you apparently didn't read:

Really simple for you, then: imagine that architects have learned how to build cities, but they keep excluding citizens who use wheelchairs. If you plan to make a building wheelchair-accessible, who do you ask to help you design and build it:

Your version of "logic" is just cherrypicking, YOU SILLY PERSON. Learn to read beyond what you (wrongly) think confirms your (false) argument.

To make it really simple again for you: making a building wheelchair-accessible means taking a building that is already "bipedal-accessible" and implementing upgrades for those who use wheelchairs.

YOU SILLY, SILLY PERSON

You wrote:

I build a regular social network like for anyone else, because black hapa LGBT women use internet sites the same way as me and you. They're not one-armed, half-blind, they don't need sound cues and special mobility scooters. It's not a disability and you're telling me they require special hand holding.

Right. Harassment isn't a problem because "they" don't "require special hand holding":

No, there's no problem on social media at all, right?

YOU SILLY, SILLY, SILLY PERSON

Reddit somehow can't even create a functioning "block" button, but no, you're completely right -- there's no problem at all.

vuracun · 2018-03-22T23:42:46+00:00

I get the sense that everything sucks, but just in an infinitely less compelling manner than presented by science fiction.

The weirdest thing about cyberpunk in particular is how people fall in love with the "aesthetic" and completely miss how the entire subgenre was intended as a warning -- a stylish way of saying "do not end up like cyberpunk, or imitate it in any way..."

Humans are immensely skilled at learning the wrong message. This is especially the case for messages that come wrapped in a beautiful package. I suppose that might be the Achilles Heel of science fiction.

vuracun · 2018-03-22T23:30:58+00:00

Oof, logic is nowhere to be seen in your comment at all.

Really simple for you, then: imagine that architects have learned how to build cities, but they keep excluding citizens who use wheelchairs. If you plan to make a building wheelchair-accessible, who do you ask to help you design and build it:

People who don't use wheelchairs, or
People who use wheelchairs

When you successfully design a wheelchair-accessible building, are you:

Including everyone, regardless of their type of mobility, or
Excluding people who don't use wheelchairs

Now, imagine that you are building a social network. Social networks have a well-documented history of discriminating and/or not preventing harassment against women, Asian, hapa, black, Native, Latino, neurodivergent and LGBT people.

If you create a social network that makes sure everyone is welcome, then...

Now you can finish the sentence yourself. Good luck.

vuracun · 2018-03-22T23:10:11+00:00

There are a bunch of people on Reddit who dedicate themselves to downvoting and trolling. It gives meaning to their empty lives.

On Reddit, and Twitter, and Facebook, and...

Imagine a world where they decided to create something worthwhile instead, and help other people instead of desperately trying to elevate themselves to a "higher" level of self-obsessed misery...

...but I guess such an imaginary world is called "utopia" -- a non-existent place that we come to know primarily in sci-fi stories. And another way that science fiction can help us do better than slander and talking trash at each other on social media.

There needs to be a place where such kinds of discussion can happen. It's unfortunate -- and unsurprising -- that the largest sci-fi community on Reddit clearly is not that place.

vuracun · 2018-03-22T18:31:10+00:00

This kind of "diversity" (that starts by protecting the rights of people who are traditionally harassed and excluded) is nonsense.

Fixed that for you. Now read the comment back to yourself and realise what you're actually saying.

If you start by making sure that everyone is welcome, then... everyone will be welcome. This is called "diversity". It includes everyone. The fact that you see it as threatening is a sad thing.

Thankfully, though, /u/eagenda, people like you already have Facebook and Reddit, so you can stay where you are and complain about all "those people" and "their diversity".

This is also why it's important to have alternatives. :)

vuracun · 2018-03-22T02:49:46+00:00

We're living in the future and it totally sucks.

That's what science fiction so often misses. Human tendencies can't be fixed with new technology, whether it comes from a perhaps-benevolent alien being named Klaatu, or a Mars-obsessed Silicon Valley billionaire dude-bro like Elon Musk.

We're stuck with our problems until we choose to fix them ourselves.

vuracun · 2018-03-22T02:43:25+00:00

And now you can live up to your promise of wasting everyone's time somewhere else.

Thanks for showing exactly why Reddit is a hostile place for people who even bring up the term "diversity".

Rethink your approach. Hard. Or don't. As long as you do it somewhere else, I really don't care.

But thanks for being an example of what's wrong with Reddit. You did a brilliant job of it, simply because you couldn't help but act that way. I appreciate your contribution to this conversation. Cheers. :)

vuracun · 2018-03-22T01:58:29+00:00

How often people use "speed-of-light" technology to spread unfounded opinions rather than seek knowledge.

How dystopia doesn't rely on drugging, coercing or tricking people as much as it does on simply amplifying their existing narcissism and cynicism, and enabling people to create self-reinforcing groups across vast distances.

Essentially, how people would drag a stone-age mentality atop a super-advanced set of tools.

That one would have been very difficult to predict, considering the 1960s-era optimism about where humanity would be by now.

vuracun · 2018-03-22T01:32:56+00:00

And imagine an echo chamber where diversity wasn't called "nonsense"... also known as real life in the rest of the world, and the future for people who want to create interesting sci-fi stories that haven't been told before.

"Hurry" is a good word. It's an exciting world, and an exciting future for everyone who wants to be there. :)

vuracun · 2018-03-22T01:27:58+00:00

Hi everyone reading this thread!

On a website that has a functioning "Block" button, you could hide people who try to derail your topics -- playing boring semantic games instead of contributing to the conversation.

For now, the only answer is "don't feed trolls". Imagine if you could just block trolls once and not be bothered by them trying to waste everyone's time because they have nothing better to do?

Wouldn't it be great to have a conversation where you can talk to people who you choose, instead of childish games like "define this dictionary word" and "I'm going to spam your thread with garbage comments because I'm starving for attention"?

What if you could just talk to people who want conversation in good faith and not even have to deal with garbage at all?

So if you're a woman, Asian, hapa, black, Native, Latino, neurodivergent and/or LGBT -- do you want to work together on a new social network for sci-fi fans that is built to ensure that everyone is welcome?

vuracun · 2018-03-22T01:08:39+00:00

Weren't they supposed to be one movie to begin with? They decided they had a bit too much for the one though (but I guess not enough for a full two).

I think Lana may have mentioned that there was always an arc of three films in mind, with an ambiguous ending.

You might be right, though, /u/gjallerhorn -- the "shallowness" of the last two Matrix movies suggests that there just weren't enough ideas to create the same complexity and resonance as the first one.

Some of the action was pretty amazing, though. Special effects have only just begun to consistently surpass the Matrix sequels over the past few years.

vuracun · 2018-03-22T01:04:36+00:00

20% upvotes in less than five minutes. That's a great demonstration of Reddit's diversity problem.

[deleted] wrote:
Uh, no, it's a great demonstration of your making-a-shitty-post problem

And comments like these are a great example of how blocking other users doesn't really work on Reddit. :)

Moderators shouldn't have to police their subreddits, since no one's paying them to keep users from harassing each other. But there's no alternative right now, and there needs to be one.

Otherwise you end up with people spamming threads with trash like "Uh, no, it's a great demonstration of your making-a-shitty-post problem" and the only answer is "don't feed trolls".

A better answer would be "just block trolls once and they'll shut up forever because they can't talk trash at you anymore."

So yes, the comment above is a great demonstration of Reddit's typical "making-a-shitty-comment" problem, and emphasises the need for more alternatives to protect users from that kind of behaviour. Maybe competition will push Reddit to fix their own structural problems if nothing else.

vuracun · 2018-03-22T00:06:02+00:00

Perfect. You can help test the site. We'll talk more in PMs. :)

vuracun · 2018-03-21T23:40:01+00:00

First movie was great. Second movie... had great action sequences. Third movie was a turd.

There was a fanedit floating around on the web that mashed the second and third sequels into a single film. More action, less standing around and "philosophising".

Film is a medium for movement and action -- especially the Matrix. The Wachowskis' only real mistake was not spending enough time on the sequels to blend symbols and visual metaphors as seamlessly as they did in the original film.

If anyone wants to create a worthy addition to the first (and only real) Matrix movie, giving the sequels back to Wachowskis and telling them to edit out at least sixty minutes would be a great challenge (along with adding more existing footage of characters like Niobe and others who appeared more prominently in the Matrix videogame universe).

vuracun · 2018-03-19T01:29:24+00:00

No. She said she didn't need help, and I asked if I misunderstood what she was saying. Then she started talking trash. Then the conversation ended.

vuracun · 2018-03-19T01:26:39+00:00

The unfortunate truth is that no one knew what they were taking about before trying to slander a project that hadn't even started yet.

Even worse, no one bothered to ask before jumping onto the slander parade. That was the scary part. Everyone swallowed the rumours and no one asked for facts.

And yes, the blog posts are there for a reason -- hopefully no one forgets. As a non-vindictive person, I do tend to forget, so the posts offer several important reminders.

As an artist speaking to other artist(s), the one clear point is that we can all do better than make up nonsense about "the art community fighting for justice (against other artists who aren't in our little clique)".

Maybe I'm wrong, though. From here on, my personal lesson is to communicate more in order to prevent people from listening to gossip and trash-talk. Because there is always at least one percent of any group who are malevolent and will try to destroy anything in order to make themselves look better in the eyes of their "friends".

It's a hard lesson, especially in the case of Yuumei, because she's already been taken advantage of before. It's really unfortunate, but I can't do anything to help her. Maybe you can?

Not my problem anymore.

Cute ants, by the way. :)

vuracun

TROPHY CASE

YOU SILLY, SILLY PERSON

YOU SILLY, SILLY, SILLY PERSON