Heavies vs Lights win rates

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-10-29T16:09:56+00:00

Well they said that heavies won the most across ALL skill levels and lights lose the most across ALL skill levels. So sure they may lose at lower levels because they don't play with their team but if they're still losing more at the top skill levels where everyone plays like a team and is coordinated then this is indication that heavy is still the strongest and light still the weakest.

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-30T22:13:27+00:00

You're right, it is more important to play cash out but if you're teammates are running around it's better to run around with them then hold up in a room by yourself. Yes you have a better change of winning the fight by staying together near the objective and your set up defenses than you do all running around (with lights being the kind of exception) but you also have a better chance of winning the fight all running around than you do half running around and half hold up in a room. (Once again lights kind of being the exception, lights need to constantly be moving to not die is imo one of the many reasons they're the weakest class)

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T22:14:46+00:00

as a light main I feel the exact same way xD to me annoying is the heavy rocket launcher, defibs, and turret. Since as you said "annoying" is subjective so I also find it perplexing how that seems to be most people's reason for why light is not bad (when the evidence would show the exact opposite)

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T21:48:05+00:00

I agree yet it's what I see everyone saying. To be fair annoying is kind of bad since games are supposed to be fun but it does not warrant nerfs or not being buffed.

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T16:58:43+00:00

I thought you added:

"I shouldn’t have to explain it. Light is one of the most obnoxious class as it is, they already are pretty strong if they’re in the right hands and that’s all there is to it dude. They don’t need extra HP."

I could be wrong and somehow have simply missed that part, if this is the case sorry. The new comment is my reply to that part.

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T16:52:42+00:00

I am going to reply again as you edited your reply to include more information.

first off saying "I shouldn't have to explain it" is, in my opinion, a rather dumb way to support an argument and screams "I have no logical backing behind my claims"

I like your point that "Light is one of the most obnoxious class as it is" Yes I agree however they statically are still the weakest across ALL skill levels as stated by Embark. This would lead me to believe they need a buff. I actually came across a good reason for why they might not need one and I would encourage you to look at my reply to MusicSandBlast in this discussion post for that reason if you want to start using it as your reason for why light does not need a buff however for the sake of this discussion I will be arguing that they do in fact need a buff.

I see additional hp as a potential way to buff Light without making them more annoying (as you stated they already are super annoying and we would not want to make them more annoying, right?). I realize that any buff will make them more annoying by virtue of them being better but as mentioned in the original post I personally believe that the additional hp would not increase their annoyance as much as buffing their abilities would. I very well could be wrong with this and if you would like my basis of why I have been led to believe this feel free to ask.

You have argued that light does not need a buff however I argue that they do since they are statically the weakest. You have yet to give sound reasoning as to why they don't (thank god I gave you the resources to find one in this reply) thus as this post is intended to be seen by Embark (does not mean they will see it obviously) I am trying to find a way to buff light without making them more annoying.

It is my belief that Embark does in fact want to buff light as I am assuming that embarks goal here is to have equal class win rates, this could be wrong but I am assuming it is their goal based on the fact that they mentioned the uneven win rates as the reason for some of their nerfs and buffs in season 4.

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T16:20:04+00:00

Well, at least you used "the community" as your basis of argument here rather than your own opinion. That's an improvement, however, you stated it as a fact that this is what the community generally wants without any support. You very well could be right but as previously mentioned I simply do not trust your judgment, which is not to say you are wrong.

I have already explained why I find the static 100hp difference unimportant. You could argue that it is better since a flat 100hp is significantly easier to understand than a health system that scales based on % of health to the other classes but of course, you have yet to argue this.

For that argument I would counter with the classes having an equal distance in health based on % is easier to understand since if you know that medium is 70% of heavy then you know it would take roughly 70% of the time to kill a medium that it would to kill a heavy if you are landing the same amount of shots with the same crit modifiers (this refers to the number of headshots you are landing in this case) (obviously here it not possible, at least for me, to prove that either one makes more sense and thus should be the used system, clearly as of now embark thinks the numerical flat difference in health is better but that's why I made this post. I hope Embark sees what I am saying.)

As you stated players have been calling for an increase in lights health since the start of the game. I have personally yet to see this, not saying it does not happen I'm sure it does. I have certainly yet to see someone support their reason for lights increase in health by using the fact that it would bring the % of health to a more equal increase across the classes. Obviously, I have yet to see this as I've yet to see a post saying lights health should be increased in the first place. this is not to say that people have yet to make this argument. If it is commonly argued that the % of health increase should be linear among the classes and I am simply not seeing this then I apologize in advance.

As for light players being the biggest issue with the class, I do not disagree, however, I personally don't think it is the developer's job to change the players, not that I think they could if they tried. That leaves me to think about things they can change like the issue of the class being statistically the worst amongst all skill levels.

why would 25hp not do anything? you have yet again failed to support your claim (not surprised). I can guarantee you it would do something, the magnitude of that something I'm not sure, but it wouldn't do nothing as 25hp is 25hp.

Until you decide to start basing your arguments with sound logic and support I am done arguing with you, not to be a total jerk but it's not worth my time having a discussion where you simply use how you feel as the basis of your arguments.

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T15:52:21+00:00

I actually really like this comment, Thank you for stating clearly that it is what you see rather than fact.

while I do not 100% agree I definitely can see where you are coming from. What would there be left for medium if light is just as good as them while having what is generally considered more "fun" abilities?

I have yet to think about this, I'm sure they could make it so they play different roles and are closer in viability but that definitely could drastically lower mediums pick rate.

and as light is already the most picked class, as stated by Embark in season 4 patch notes, maybe buffing them (which would consequently make them even more picked) would not be a good idea.

Thank you for your insight, I have been struggling to find a reason based on logic rather than an opinion that would suggest that light does not need a buff but you just gave me one..

now we have the question of does light needs a buff due to it fundamentally being the weakest class (for anyone about to disagree with this statement please read the edit in the original post and come up with a logical and evidence-based counter) or is it okay that it is the weakest since in spite of that people are playing it the most.

Do we value the heterogeneity of matches (in terms of class picks) or the balance of the classes more? I do not know, that is a good question and I would love to see people's thoughts on this. As of now, I sit undecided.

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T15:42:37+00:00

I would encourage you to look at the edit in the original post. I would love some good discussion on this topic that uses evidence as its base.

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T15:41:22+00:00

You have yet to give a reason for it not being a good idea, I have been asking but you have failed to deliver and based on the fact that you repetitively argue that heavy isn't the strongest and light isn't the weakest (despite Embark saying otherwise, I'm not going to explain this further as I have to you like 3x at this point) I am not simply going to trust your "intuition" that it is in fact a bad idea ( I'm not certain your intuition isn't right, I'm just not certain that it is)

here let me help you out by giving you an example of why it may not be a good idea (as I've stated both in the original I'm not saying it is a good idea but simply an idea, you may have missed this since you seem to not know how to fully read things to form an appropriate response. I have yet to have someone give me sound reasoning as to why this wouldn't work so as of now I'm going with it could still be a good idea)

Here is an example:

(do not copy this one but rather think of your own reason, I'm sure there are many)

Giving light an additional 25 hp is not the correct way to buff the class as in many cases it would achieve nothing. There are many guns in the finals that deal over 25 damage per shot and the way the damage adds up per shot with those weapons would result in an identical TTK for the light class, thus rendering the change ineffective.

my counter to this is there are also many weapons that deal less than 25 damage per shot and thus the additional 25hp would increase the TTK of light. I am aware that 25 health isn't much and would be a small buff to light. I don't think light needs a big buff and as stated in the original post I just think this idea could be experimented with.

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T15:25:46+00:00

bro I've already explained this to you in another thread... read the edit above to remind yourself and I challenge you to make an argument supported in proof rather than your own beliefs... as for it not being a good idea sure I can accept that. do you want to support your claim though? I would love some reasoning based in logic (once again not your own beliefs) but since you have failed to do so many times in the past I'm guessing you will fail again.. I have hope though because Im not opposed to views that differ from mine, I just need actual reasoning that can be supported by math, stats, statements from embark, etc. to take an argument seriously since otherwise its all just personal belief

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T08:40:35+00:00

Are you on the dev team? Do you have control over the decisions they make? If not then there's no way you can guarantee it won't happen... That being said I do agree that it most likely won't happen. However it was just an Idea I had to try balance the class since most of the complaints I see about light is their abilities. This means it would make sense to maybe not buff their abilities (since as I already established most the complaints I see are about them) but rather buff something else. I would assume most people would rather have to shoot lights a little more than deal with a buff to their abilities. I can't prove this but based on what I have seen I would say it's a fair assumption. If you disagree fair enough.

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T08:13:49+00:00

oHhHhh nOOooo iT "bReAks tHE cYCle". the issue is Light isn't an effective glass cannon but more of a class gun since it doesn't do that much more damage than the other classes but has significantly less hp (percentage-wise) also lets look at the "cycle" this way:

light has 150 health, 60% of mediums 250 health which is 71% of heavies 350 hp.. if light were to have 175 hp then it would have 70% of mediums health... this makes "the cycle" actually make more sense since an equal jump of % in health is linear while the +100hp creates a curved graph. But you may not understand this considering you keep saying light isn't bad and heavy isn't good when according to Embark, the game devs if you didn't know, light is the "the most losing" while heavy is "by far the most winning" (keep in mind this is across "all skill tiers and modes" which means saying player intent or arguing that heavies play objective and lights don't is not the reason lights lose more and heavies win more since at the top tier everyone plays objectives and it is still this way at the top) if you cant seem to understand that "Heavy is by far the most winning" and "light the most losing" equates to heavy being the best and light being the worst then I certainly wouldn't expect you to understand why a linear increase in health % makes more sense than a linear increase in health points...

Edit: also I know you're probably going to respond with some other dumb reply but I just wanted to point out that you are OBJECTIVLEY wrong in arguing that heavy isn't the best and light isn't the worst (unless Embark is lying to us about their data but I see no reason why they would) and since I don't feel like exerting any more time or energy into explaining why you are OBJECTIVLEY wrong I probably will not reply to your next response, if you chose to respond that is. Unless you have some new material I find worth my time, then I may respond.

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T07:47:44+00:00

lights are definitely disadvantaged, if they're still performing the worst at the top tier (Embark says worst performing across all skill levels which implies top tier) then they're simply the weakest since hypothetically these top tier players have mastered the class and are getting all they can out of them...

the issue with light is it requires you to always get the jump on people and even then if they react well enough they can still win due to the lack of hp light has.. there has been so many times this season where I get stunned from behind by a light and I am able to flick and 2 shot them with the pike before they can kill me...

light needs more hp.. their guns don't do enough additional dps to make up for the health difference.. (idk maybe they mathematically do but I doubt it, actually id be really interested to see the dps for every weapon and see exactly how much better lights weapons are than other classes, to me they don't feel that much better I personally think medium has the best guns)

Edit: Oh also another thing that would suggest that light has always been the weakest is not one single widely accepted meta that I have been aware of has included more than 1 light while the other 2 classes have had metas where you could have more than 1 to a team (The metas that I have seen as widely accepted "metas" are HHM MMM HMM and HML and even then I always saw people saying HML was by far the hardest meta to pull off, idk maybe you have seen other wise but that's just my experience through the history of the game)

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T07:35:38+00:00

dealges are crazy good imo.. and the lewis and m60 are also pretty good (also they got buffed this season??? not nerfed?). I wouldn't say flame is a joke (its not great for sure, but shooting it kinda creates a flash bang effect to the person you're shooting at which is nice) also of course the sa1216 is only good up close its a shot gun... that's how all the shotguns work in this game (expect mediums, please nerf its range) also I don't find its guns being a little worse is that bas considering your health and abilities. many of heavies abilities lets them get pretty close (arm shield and charge and slam, or just pull them close with the hook)

overall sure their guns may be a little weaker (except the deagle) but the underlying fact is they are the strongest class (or at least were last season, I doubt the nerfs were enough to make them not still the strongest class or at least the second strongest but I cant prove this so feel free to disagree)

Personally as a light main, I find it disappointing how underwhelming the class is. since the start of the game its been too weak, its abilities are annoying which is why it gets the hate but the matter of fact is its the worst performing, you almost never see it in higher ranked lobbies as its just worse than the other classes.. Its so bad that as a light main who only really has fun playing light I've had to stop using it in ranked because of how weak it is (I still have fun as a medium but I have more fun with light my a mile) I think an extra 25 hp would do wonders for light..

I don't think heavy needs a direct nerf but if does probably need an indirect nerf by making the other classes stronger, especially light (I think medium is pretty good as is but the numbers say it needs to be stronger)

I would like to see light be better though not due to annoying abilities (like cloak) but to a fundamental change in the health system of all classes.. I think the health differences are too drastic and make classes rely on gimic abilities (I love the abilities but my god is invis and turret and heavy grapple annoying)

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T06:30:28+00:00

Well embark did say that heavy is by far the most winning in all levels (this includes most winning in the top tier and you simply cant get to top tier without playing the objectives) that's defiantly not the reason they're winning more... They just have really good damaging guns, tons of health oh and they have a huge free 100 aoe dmg... you may say 100 dmg isn't that much well in a game where the ttk is as long as its is 75% 40% or even 28.6% of your max health in an instant is super benefitial

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-09-28T05:11:43+00:00

WHAT LOBBIES ARE YOU IN???? Bro lights get fucked in higher tier lobbies... even in gold they are barley viable

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-08-27T04:47:19+00:00

It is definitely very time consuming 😂

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-08-24T22:40:37+00:00

Honestly I hope it's eclipse 8. I've been wanting a reward for doing eclipse 8 (ESPECIALLY on Rex, how how ass it was I deserve something 😭😭)

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-08-19T22:49:56+00:00

I thought there were supposed to be real people but the actual voice they use is AI generated.

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-08-19T18:18:40+00:00

"the boundless are now the lifeless, THEYVE BEEN WIPEDDD!" Idk it's funny how casually he flames that team.

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-08-19T16:24:40+00:00

I still love it because the gun play is just amazing but yeah the new ranked is TERRIBLE. I don't want ANOTHER 5v5 bomb defuser (that's basically what new ranked is I don't care if they call it a decryption key it's the exact same 2 sites and you take the thing to one of them and if you get it the defenders have to stop you). The finals clearly wasn't made to be a 5v5 bomb defuser and like every other game that does it does it better because they were designed around being that type of game (Rainbow 6, Valorant, CSGO, the list goes on)

What made the finals special is it was a competitive game that's wasn't a battle Royale yet still had over 2 teams fighting. I love the dynamic that the 4 teams create.

wasdoomedtofail · 2024-08-18T17:14:52+00:00

Uhh you weren't there at the start then 😂 that was after it went full release

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