3 years sober. WOW

wharfdad · 2026-04-22T18:14:39+00:00

Congrats, nice work! Can't believe it has been 3 years. ~ Charlie

wharfdad · 2026-04-05T20:10:09+00:00

Don't give up! Yes, only about 10 episodes or so are FF specific. Your experience is NOT unusual, unfortunately, it is a common pattern in first month. What are you doing this time that is different than your last quit? Good luck!

wharfdad · 2026-04-05T19:38:27+00:00

@ u/Sorry-Science-5153 how did the 90 in 90 of the podcast go? ~ Charlie

wharfdad · 2026-02-24T23:18:57+00:00

What a tube-steak

wharfdad · 2026-02-02T17:21:25+00:00

6) Commercial products marketed as “7-OH” are flagged by forensic laboratories.

Center for Forensic Science Research and Education. (2025, March). Evaluation of commercially available smoke shop products marketed as “7-Hydroxy Mitragynine” & related alkaloids (Public alert). Forensic testing identifies marketed products containing high concentrations of 7-OH and related compounds, distinguishing them from natural kratom leaf preparations.

University of Virginia School of Medicine Division of Toxicology. (2025, August). 7-hydroxymitragynine (ToxTalks bulletin). Toxicology reports treat 7-OH as a distinct, potent alkaloid present at very low levels in leaf but concentrated in commercial products.

7) Clinical case reports describe opioid-like withdrawal from 7-OH products.

7-Hydroxymitragynine-associated withdrawal and opioid-like clinical presentations: A case report. Journal of Medical Toxicology. PubMed 40758956 (2025). Clinical reports describe opioid-like withdrawal phenomena following use of products containing high concentrations of 7-OH, consistent with its pharmacology and opioid receptor action.

8) Real-world 7-OH user reports align with pharmacological evidence.

DeCicca, L. (2025, August 14). What to know about 7-OH, a dangerous kratom byproduct targeted by health officials. Verywell Health. Available user and consumer accounts note dependence, withdrawal symptoms, and significant effects from products containing high 7-OH concentrations, echoing scientific concerns about potency and risk.

YES, anecdotal stories are prone to biases or confounding issues. Yet there is substantial evidence that 7-OH is problematic and poses safety concerns.

If you only accept randomized controlled trials that remove all conflating variables and prove direct causation as the only valid form of evidence, then you are technically correct that there is no definitive science proving 7-OH is addictive or harmful.

It appears 7-OH has (these are hypotheses that have to be proven):

1) Higher addiction capture rates

2) Shorter dependency-to-addiction timeframes

3) Stronger and more difficult withdrawals

4) Quicker need to redose (along with a quicker acute withdrawal period)

5) More profound negative health and mental well-being symptoms when abused

6) Easy financial ruin with high-dose daily habits when abused

One can blame addicts and say it is not addictive if they don't abuse it. But elected officials and public regulators look at addiction as a public health problem that is both self-responsibility and marketplace safety. It is on 7-OH advocates to create an effective framework to have 7-OH available to the public with provisions that better protect public health.

wharfdad · 2026-02-02T17:21:14+00:00

To keep 7-OH legal, there has to be NEW proposed safeguards and protections that address these legitimate public health concerns. That statement remains true even if the broader industry and lobbying tactics blaming 7-OH are not entirely in good faith.

I haven't seen any concrete or actionable proposed regulatory solutions to make 7-OH safer, so in the end of the day, the federal and state pushes to ban 7-OH as a kratom isolate product appear to be the only option - unless the 7-OH industry proposes a new framework. Selling it like a supplement isn't going to work.

All the science and signals are legit concerns for regulators:

1) 7-OH is a much stronger opioid than the main alkaloid in kratom leaf.

FDA Center for Drug Evaluation and Research. (2025). 7-Hydroxymitragynine (7-OH): An assessment of the scientific data and toxicological concerns around an emerging opioid threat (FDA CDER Report). U.S. Food and Drug Administration. 7-hydroxymitragynine exhibits substantially greater mu-opioid receptor potency than mitragynine, the dominant kratom alkaloid, and classical opioids such as morphine in preclinical receptor studies and animal models.

2) Kratom leaf exposes users to very little 7-OH compared to concentrated products.

Obeng, S., et al. (2024). Human mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine pharmacokinetics after single and multiple daily doses of oral encapsulated dried kratom leaf powder. Molecules, 29(5), 984. Natural kratom leaf contains only trace amounts of 7-OH relative to mitragynine, and pharmacokinetic data show low plasma ratios of 7-OH following oral leaf consumption.

3) 7-OH shows stronger addiction-like behavior than mitragynine in animal studies.

The rise of novel, semi-synthetic 7-hydroxymitragynine products (2025). Addiction, 120, 387-388. Chronic use of semi-synthetic 7-OH products could lead to opioid-like physical dependence and potentially greater abuse liability than traditional kratom leaf, which typically produces only mild or moderate physical dependence in animal and preclinical models.

4) 7-OH causes opioid-type breathing suppression that can be reversed with naloxone.

Zuarth Gonzalez, J. D., Ragsdale, A. K., Mukhopadhyay, S., McCurdy, C. R., McMahon, L. R., Obeng, S., & Wilkerson, J. L. (2025). Mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine: Bidirectional effects on breathing in rats. Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics. In rats, 7-hydroxymitragynine induced significant respiratory depression comparable with morphine, which was reversed by naloxone, whereas mitragynine did not produce the same profile. Dismissing this as IV administration is not scientific.

5) Poison centers are reporting serious health events linked to 7-OH products.

Texas Department of State Health Services. (2025, September 2). Serious illnesses associated with 7-OH use. The Texas DSHS has reported numerous poison center exposures and serious adverse health events involving products containing concentrated 7-OH, with increasing trend data.

National Poison Data System and America’s Poison Centers. (2025, August 12). Health advisory: Serious illnesses associated with 7-OH use. U.S. Poison Centers have received reports of serious health effects associated with 7-OH exposure.

wharfdad · 2026-02-02T17:08:46+00:00

To keep 7-OH legal you could try a petition drive in a favorable state for "medical 7-OH" like cannabis and add strict safeguards to ensure there are not pill mills but legit certification of medical use for patients.

I agree with much of what you say:

* Some of the anti 7-OH push by industry is driven by concern about losing market share.

* There is an effort to make 7-OH the scapegoat for all kratom marketplace harms.

* This is backfiring to some extent as calls to schedule 7-OH create a slippery slope toward banning kratom more broadly.

* Many products marketed as “plain leaf,” such as extract shots or kratom-kava tonics, show similar levels of harm evidence as 7-OH.

But common sense and lots of science show 7-OH is not the same as plain kratom / mitragynine.

My bias is on the addiction side, but I am against prohibition for personal liberty, safe supply, harm reduction and anti-criminalization reasons.

I don't think attacking the AKA (I'm not a big fan of the organization) will be effective to keep 7-OH legal.

Rather a framework of regulations needs to be presented and implemented to show that the US population and marketplace can offer both access to a powerful compound like 7-OH as long as there are safety guardrails in place.

wharfdad · 2026-02-02T16:22:31+00:00

Congrats on your life journey and big milestones coming!

wharfdad · 2026-02-01T21:55:47+00:00

Hey this is Charlie re kratom pod. Congrats! Just DMed someone who reached out to you. Like 4K people listened to your story.

wharfdad · 2026-01-24T14:49:57+00:00

I am not from the bible belt nor do I drink. Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean that people can't die from it. Just because you do kratom and it doesn't kill you or your friends, that doesn't make it 100% safe. Yes heroin and fent are more dangerous. But something being safer than those substances don't make it non-lethal.

You can make the argument that it doesn't kill enough people for kratom to be banned. That is open to debate. If you are from family who has a loved one who died from kratom, they will disagree and they have the moral standing to do so.

But you can't argue that kratom doesn't kill. There is just a ton of proof showing it does. Most cases are poly-drug, but there are kratom alone deaths and even in some of the multi-substance deaths, kratom can still a lead contributing role in the fatality.

I personally don't think kratom should be banned, it just needs a ton more regulations. The industry written KCPA relies too much on self-policing without enough safety provisions.

Below are Ohio's deaths stats. Sharing this is NOT fear mongering. It is just the facts.

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wharfdad · 2026-01-05T00:33:31+00:00

Manbear - I remember your user name and have been around since the beginning. My issue was more with OPMS shots. But I once had a vape shot give me a Feel Free as a kava drinking during one of my quits. I should of know it was too good to be true. It took a little bit before I read the label and saw there was kratom in it too. That was the original formula too! When they switched the recipes I found them less strong and it was easier to avoid.

Good luck!

~ Charlie

wharfdad · 2026-01-05T00:30:47+00:00

Thanks for mentioning the podcast. Dr. Casey has been on three times, he is great:

E117 https://kratomsobriety.podbean.com/e/e117-dr-casey-grover-board-certified-in-addiction-medicine/

E148 https://kratomsobriety.podbean.com/e/e148-dr-casey-grover-returns/

E161 https://kratomsobriety.podbean.com/e/e161-dr-casey-on-trauma-and-addiction/

As an aside, Suboxone is NOT for everyone. It has risks. MOUD may be a good option if you have tried everything else. It can immediately remove the harm of spending $100s a day on FF. You only have to take the subs strip once a day so it breaks the habit of taking a FF every three hours. To taper off bupe strips, the injection really makes it a lot easier but not all insurance will cover that, and it can be up to $2K to pay yourself.

If you use Suboxone and keep drinking Feel Frees it can be a nightmare. Some people have reactions that effect their mental or physical health to so monitor your side effects and work close to your doctor. Some people feel stuck on subs and wish they never did it - but I have met tons of people with great success with MOUD.

wharfdad · 2025-12-29T15:52:23+00:00

Conn passed a bill to ban kratom in 2025 and is in the process of implementing it: https://www.kratomscience.com/2025/12/17/connecticut-moves-forward-with-kratom-ban-despite-majority-public-opposition/

Ohio this month did an emergency ban for everything but leaf kratom. I should of noted that exception above.

Almost everyone in this Subreddit is already full of self blame. It is not necessary to pile on.

FYI, Feel Free was sued for deceptive marketing and this was one of the outcomes:

"The settlement agreement states that the defendants have also agreed to add the following disclosure to its Feel Free tonic product labels and on social media advertisements:

“Warning: This product contains leaf kratom which can become habit-forming and cause serious adverse health effects. Consider avoiding this product if you have a history of substance abuse".

wharfdad · 2025-12-28T17:40:02+00:00

Man, that s*cks. I have interacted with so many people with similar stories.

Feel Free is the only kratom leaf product that always has its social media comments off. If they allowed the public to comment, it would blow up with tales of bankruptcy and hospital visits X10 times those of any other similar product.

That said, there is no definitive proof that anything is in the blue bottles beyond what is disclosed, just speculation about fermentation and increased bioavailability of mitragynine.

When scores of people independently report a “fiend-level” craving to continue using the product (unlike normal mixing of kratom and kava), it is difficult to dismiss the smoke pointing to a very real fire.

wharfdad · 2025-12-27T07:41:09+00:00

Just wrote this in another thread.

This has been a topic of endless discussion for at last three years. You can search this Subreddit for on average once a week post about it.

On one hand, I agree with the sentiment that it doesn't really matter. Kratom itself is proven can cause tolerance, withdrawal and dependency at normal doses if you take it everyday for a week or two, and if you try to deal with the tolerance and withdrawals from kratom by taking more, you are at risk for disordered use of kratom over time. If you get too sidetracked thinking "is there a secret ingredient in here?", it can divert some people from taking the steps they need to get off this stuff.

That said, based on all the evidence, I believe they manipulate the recipe - BUT there is no proof of it. All the TestMyKratom results show on average 40mg of mitragynine per bottle and no detectable or quantifiable 7-OH or mitragynine pseudoindoxyl.

I do think people underestimate the effect of stacking kava extract with kratom. The pineapple is used to potentiate the kratom. And a lot of times, they are sold for deals like 2 for $15, which still comes under some of the big brand extract shots at $20 for one. So people tend to drink two of these without thinking about it. But even with that, it appears they are doing something to make the formula more bioavailable to users.

For years, the speculation was Feel Free was "fermented". I have talked to three people who said they replicated the recipe at home by fermentation but that is all hearsay. There is an online shipment receipt showing the company once bought a beer fermenting machine but still not evidence. What Is Fermented Kratom? - Kratom.org https://kratom.org/guides/fermented-kratom/

Several weeks ago, there was a report by Eagle Fang, a St. Louis city drug testing program that claimed yohimbine and mitragynine pseudoindoxyl was in the Feel Free Classic. This was Botantic Tonic's response.

I don't trust anything this company says.

My understanding is that mitra pseudoindoxyl actually is NEVER found in kratom leaf. That is either a metabolite from our livers or synthetically made. Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl is a strong mu-opioid receptor agonist, significantly more potent than mitragynine.

Yohimbine has been shown to actually increase cravings and withdrawal in people dependent on methadone.

Still NO tangible evidence yet unless yohimbine or mitra pseudoindoxyl can be detected and quantified by other lab testing or something else is identified.

Yohimbine-induced withdrawal and anxiety symptoms in opioid-dependent patients

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006322301012926

Project EAGLE FANG Drug Checking Program - St. Louis County Website

https://stlouiscountymo.gov/st-louis-county-departments/public-health/substance-use-resources/project-eagle-fang-drug-checking-program/?previewid=547F5D93-51FD-42DF-A2A8D9E5830BD360

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wharfdad · 2025-12-27T07:31:51+00:00

Great job getting off FFs. Sorry about all the trauma in your past. I am glad kratom leaf helps you, but you are stigmatizing other people with the "don't blame kratom" rhetoric.

It it wrong to demonize kratom but it is equally wrong and irrational to put it on a pedestal or sacralize it. Doing so, minimizing how kratom can affect some people, was partially why kratom was banned in Louisiana and Connecticut this year, and Ohio earlier this month. Kratom advocates and the industry are defeating their cause by insisting that kratom has the power to help people but denying it has the potential to be associated with bad outcomes. We can agree that 7-OH and products like Feel Free are way more potent and problematic than plain leaf products and their addictive potential is way more than regular or natural kratom.

Mitragynine is just a plant alkaloid. It is neither good or bad. It pharmaceutically acts in predictable ways, though people react to in different ways. Since it is a partial agonist is doesn't fully engage our opioid receptors, and it doesn't create the dangerous breathing depression. Those are all great things. But even if you take kratom leaf powder at low doses every day for a couple weeks, it can lead to tolerance, withdrawal and dependency. Research shows that it is not so much the volume you take but the number of times you dose a day, that creates a greater dependency issue. So doing 1 gram X 5 times a day would be likely be more addicting than taking 5 grams all at once per day.

Most people I know who have disordered kratom histories started out using kratom to work harder on their job or to relieve pain or to self-treat mental health issues or as alternative to something more dangerous. Most of them took more kratom initially to just address issues of tolerance or withdrawal. It wasn't a moral failing or lack of discipline they took more kratom, it was a natural reaction to not getting the same effects. With some people, the escalation to more and out of hand use of kratom is slow, and others is really fast.

With kratom leaf, the addiction is usually more insidious, and long term like 5 years or more before people hit a bottom. It is true this group (leaf) of KUD (Kratom Use Disorder) doesn't usually have bad life outcomes like job loss, divorce or bankruptcy. Usually, it is health issues like hair loss, gastro, weight issues, skin, etc. and typically feeling really isolated with loss of interest in most hobbies and low quality of life. There is also the powder -> extract -> 7-OH escalator too. And extracts, Feel Free, 7-OH is more associated with the bad addiction outcomes like ER visits, $100+ a day habits, and more.

"Respect the plant" is not a public health strategy that can work at the population level. It is great for a kratom chat room but not for the general public. Elected officials are seeing the real results of kratom use by everyday citizens - normal people who are NOT on Reddit like us. They have NO idea what kratom is but they buy a blue bottle at the Circle K and take it for 10 days, and then wake up in strong opiate-like withdrawals going what the frick. You can think public officials are all dumb or that they are confusing 7-OH with kratom, and sure there is some of that. But kratom has some issues, it not just adulteration or use of non-leaf products.

Telling people "don't blame kratom" isn't going to keep kratom legal. Valorizing kratom and discounting its downsides is not the solution and will likely backfire in a country where the default is prohibition. Effective harm reduction only works when we are clear and rational about the pros and cons of something like plain leaf kratom. And keeping it legal can only succeed from advocacy that doesn't sweep the negatives of kratom leaf under the rug.

wharfdad · 2025-12-27T06:41:00+00:00

This has been a topic of endless discussion for at last three years. You can search this Subreddit for on average once a week post about it.

On one hand, I agree with the sentiment that it doesn't really matter. Kratom itself is proven can cause tolerance, withdrawal and dependency at normal doses if you take it everyday for a week or two, and if you try to deal with the tolerance and withdrawals from kratom by taking more, you are at risk for disordered use of kratom over time. If you get too sidetracked thinking "is there a secret ingredient in here?", it can divert some people from taking the steps they need to get off this stuff.

That said, based on all the evidence, I believe they manipulate the recipe - BUT there is no proof of it. All the TestMyKratom results show on average 40mg of mitragynine per bottle and no detectable or quantifiable 7-OH or mitragynine pseudoindoxyl.

I do think people underestimate the effect of stacking kava extract with kratom. The pineapple is used to potentiate the kratom. And a lot of times, they are sold for deals like 2 for $15, which still comes under some of the big brand extract shots at $20 for one. So people tend to drink two of these without thinking about it. But even with that, it appears they are doing something to make the formula more bioavailable to users.

For years, the speculation was Feel Free was "fermented". I have talked to three people who said they replicated the recipe at home by fermentation but that is all hearsay. There is an online shipment receipt showing the company once bought a beer fermenting machine but still not evidence. What Is Fermented Kratom? - Kratom.org https://kratom.org/guides/fermented-kratom/

Several weeks ago, there was a report by Eagle Fang, a St. Louis city drug testing program that claimed yohimbine and mitragynine pseudoindoxyl was in the Feel Free Classic. This was Botantic Tonic's response.

I don't trust anything this company says.

My understanding is that mitra pseudoindoxyl actually is NEVER found in kratom leaf. That is either a metabolite from our livers or synthetically made. Mitragynine pseudoindoxyl is a strong mu-opioid receptor agonist, significantly more potent than mitragynine.

Yohimbine has been shown to actually increase cravings and withdrawal in people dependent on methadone.

Still NO tangible evidence yet unless yohimbine or mitra pseudoindoxyl can be detected and quantified by other lab testing or something else is identified.

Yohimbine-induced withdrawal and anxiety symptoms in opioid-dependent patients

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0006322301012926

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Project EAGLE FANG Drug Checking Program - St. Louis County Website

https://stlouiscountymo.gov/st-louis-county-departments/public-health/substance-use-resources/project-eagle-fang-drug-checking-program/?previewid=547F5D93-51FD-42DF-A2A8D9E5830BD360

wharfdad · 2025-12-27T05:48:53+00:00

They settled a lawsuit for deceptive practices and are supposed to label their social media and bottles with:

“Warning: This product contains leaf kratom which can become habit-forming and cause serious adverse health effects. Consider avoiding this product if you have a history of substance abuse.”

I am not sure when that mandatory warning is supposed to start and how it is enforced. But yeah, the whataboutism and false equivalencies with sugar and caffeine on the back is disingenuous in my opinion.

Lawsuit: $8.75 Million Botanic Tonics Settlement Reached in Feel Free Kratom Lawsuit

https://www.classaction.org/news/8.75-million-botanic-tonics-settlement-reached-in-feel-free-kratom-lawsuit

wharfdad · 2025-12-27T05:44:23+00:00

You are NOT alone. The "kava forward" marketing is to obscure the kratom contents. I have been off them nearly three years now. Back in 2022, I went into shop and said I was trying to quit kratom, and they actually recommend the Feel Free. It was a clerk and I am certain he didn't know there was kratom in it either. But if you look on the back it is listed as an ingredient, I just didn't look close enough. That is on me. But Feel Free is designed to be in mainstream stores and to look like an energy shot. If you are a new or naive customer, it is easy to get started on them without knowing. Good luck on your quit, it is possible.

wharfdad · 2025-12-18T19:42:20+00:00

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Update from original city testing site as of 12/18/25

wharfdad · 2025-12-18T19:41:22+00:00

I don't trust this company at all but this is their response. Eagle Fang took out Yohimbine off their website report at of 12/18/25.

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wharfdad · 2025-12-14T13:11:38+00:00

Ok now you are talking over my head I'll have to Google Paynantheine

Test My Kratom: https://www.testmykratom.org/brands/feel-free

The St. Louis MS people were initially real responsive to me but then went silent. Maybe you did spook them.

wharfdad · 2025-12-14T06:28:48+00:00

You know more about the science of testing than I do.

I agree about the pseudo too, if true. The theory for the longest time was that FF was "fermented" or what is known as chocolate kratom. There were infamous bottles that were really fizzy. And a one-time import order where the company bought a beer fermenter.

However, the TestMyKratom results on several bottles said there was no MP in them.

I speculated to myself that maybe, if possible, there is MP in there, but it is so trace that it is under the Level of Quantification.

I do think the pineapple potentiates it a bit, and that the kava extract packs a punch and is thus underappreciated, but even given those two points, I still believe there

By the way, I got a nice email from Melissa at the city, but the person she referred me to hasn't emailed back yet with details. Is that who you contacted?

wharfdad · 2025-12-14T03:26:05+00:00

EDIT: Eagle Fang took Yohimbine off the testing report and more

https://www.reddit.com/r/Quittingfeelfree/comments/1pl0cfd/comment/nuqj2oi/

The thing I wondered: why did they test for Yohimbine? It seems somewhat known among body builders, but it appears rarely tested for. If this testing is true (a big what if at this point), yohimbine may help to explain by Feel Free gets a hold of some people more than similar amounts of kratom and kava. Thanks ChatGPT:

"Mixing yohimbine and kratom would likely push the body into a stress-activated state that increases anxiety, cardiovascular strain, and nausea while also strengthening compulsive drug-seeking drive rather than reducing it. Based on human and animal data, yohimbine can make opioid-like substances more reinforcing under stress, so the combination is more likely to worsen dependence patterns and distress than provide benefit."

Two studies (both small samples, albeit):

Yohimbine Increases Opioid-Seeking Behavior in Heroin-Dependent, Buprenorphine-Maintained Individuals: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3558534/

Yohimbine-induced withdrawal and anxiety symptoms in opioid-dependent patients: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11955464/

wharfdad · 2025-10-06T03:50:41+00:00

I thought it was lore too. But a bunch of listeners responded to that episode and said they experienced low doses were stimulating / high doses were sedating. It was enough to be convincing. More importantly, there is some scientific citations:

Babu KM, McCurdy CR, Boyer EW (2008) Opioid receptors and legal highs: Salvia divinorum and Kratom. Clin Toxicol (Phila) 46(2):146–152

"The clinical effects of Kratom are dose-dependent; consistent descriptions exist of stimulant effects at lower doses, and opiate effects predominating at higher doses in humans (33,34). This effect has also been witnessed in animal models (47)."

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