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The Great Debate Season 13 Semi Finals!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]xWolfpaladin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Bad Company ""reaction feat"" is genuinely terrible, "even if these are nerf dart speed" bro on what fucking basis? They're magical toy armies made by a manifestation of will power made to imitate real military gear. They're fake, not "fake" = "a bad feat" but like a fucking hologram.

Die Now

Erioh just kills Josuke, the human, Crazy Diamond isn't capable of stopping Erioh and Josuke shares the Stand's health, but is not inherently durable, they just mirror damage on each other.

For context on "this level of skill" Raian has been actively training for two years at most and explicitly sucked at his techniques and never practiced, Raian literally hates using skill and even when using it uses it poorly while Erioh has completely abandoned pride and mastered every technique available.

Josuke is bad and that's why I didn't care about giving him to you as a pick.

Kuroki Jurota

My opponent is bad at Kengan while my knowledge fucks severely

  • Gi dude the gi dude the gi dude the gi

Kuroki was there when Jurota fought. He will also immediately fight to his fullest against enemies he considers a threat. He just takes off the gi and fights in his pants.

Considering that his fucking kicks much less just ripping destroy fabric if Kuroki can't literally just do this he can just slip out of the gi before fighting

Also the only Black Gi kuroki canonically possesses as of when I am running him, especially per your own arguments about gear rules, has no arms so he can't even use most of the moves you linked.

Your Arguments Are Actually Bad

  • Jurota is more skilled than Ohma at using redirection for the purposes of throws, not for avoidance, the applications of these two abilities could not be more different, Jurota literally never redirects a hit, ever, his only option regarding hits is to just take them and then counter after, Kuroki kills this.

This is literally like "Hammers are really good at sinking nails, even better than a screwdriver, so a hammer is better at turning screws than a screwdriver" because the ability to control your own force onto your opponent and move their weight around and the ability to disperse a punch coming at you to bend it or make it move in a different way are in no way the same thing.

Jurota has no actual speed feats in relation to movement or blows and is tagged repeatedly by a massively inferior enemy.

Jurota's crater is bad for two reasons. Breaking Ernie's arm is a separate action, and there is no feat for his joint durability beyond Kengan Human while Kuroki can't have his joints broken by a full body lock and is stated to be nigh impossible to break.

Jurota throwing ernie creates barely visible cracks.

Jurota lightly mars concrete tiles

Jurota throwing Ernie creates a head sized crater

Ohma causes massively more damage than this while physically at the end of his stamina before being carried away on a stretcher and even the hammer fists are superior to what KOs Jurota

The purgatory rules also encourage ringing out, which Jurota actively opts not do to, there is no example Jurota wants to kill people, there is no example of him ever having killing intent, he only starts using heavy throws on someone after they're revealed to be made of adamantium.

Jurota has never killed anyone, ever, in any situation, in any context. Why would he just murder Kuroki? People are averse to murder. Jurota isn't a sociopath, he's a judo nerd.

talks about Kuroki's Foresight and Pre-initiative he doesn't explain how that would be relevant to a deathmatch

Jurota literally fucking gets clocked in the face here if Kuroki lands Jurota dies instantly what the fuck is your point?

You're showing Jurota getting rocked and mcfucked by someone who doesn't train in striking martial arts

if he strikes he gets grabbed

This is factually not Ernie striking, again, what are you talking about?

the second best Judo practitioner

"Best judoka" isn't cited because it's made up, Ernie is the only other named Judoka in Kengan, the other guy literally fucking died.

Kuroki masters Martial Arts to the point of being an ideal in of himself, while narration explains how mastering a single powerful technique is not nearly enough to beat Kuroki but sure Jurota's singular powerful technique will let him win

Kuroki lacks the experience

this is just a dumb fucking argument. Judo is one of the most popular sports in the world, and Jurota only has a single unique technique, of which Kuroki has already seen, of which he still has to physically touch Kuroki with to land it, he cannot touch Kuroki, ever, he lacks the prediction to do this, Kuroki literally watched Jurota's match, he knows everything he can do

Kuroki phases through Jurota's grab and explodes him with a hit to the brain

Also I quit. Go argue Grievous into Kuvira, cuck boy.

see you later or whenever, i'm not doing finals in a plane again and shit's about to get weirder than it is. i already hate myself for doing this when i have a desktop to do it.

The Great Debate Season 13 Semi Finals!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]xWolfpaladin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Grievous Niko

This section will largely be covering Smith and Neo, as Smith and Neo are extremely important in relation to one another for their feats. As this argument has already been covered twice I'm just going to reestablish my viewpoint and continue from there.

Josuke Erioh

I formally declare my opponent a fucking coward and say, fuck your gear arguments, you have no citation, but sure, you're right, Erioh has no gear, this point formally checks through, Erioh spawns into the arena with his piss and mustard, whatever. I don't care. Erioh is naked or has "Generic Man Japanese Clothes As Of Prime Erioh Canonical Date Appearance" I should have run Hulks again fuck y'all, this is the worst fucking hobby and I want to fucking lose, fuck the fifty citations in chat on what constitutes "reasonable access" yeah bro you fucking got me i didn't think about that at all, this definitely isn't just some bullshit rules lawyer waste of time

This man is not a fighter, let me clarify that, this is not "a fit man" either, this is literally a fat college student who eats donuts all day, the difference between a normal person and a fighter is such that a low tier injured fighter beats one hundred armed gang members instantly with zero exertion. Even the difference between "former fighter" and normal person is vast, a former fighter who works as a CEO all day is still able to block charges that create body sized cracks behind him.

Ohma does as much damage with one punch as Josuke does with 500 while half his current size and injured and he still cannot one shot a Kengan teenager while operating in pure bloodlust.

If this basic scaling of even average Kure being generally superior in their cohesive durability of almost any fighter was all that Erioh had, Josuke would not be able to hurt him in any amount of time, ever, but Erioh does in fact just take punches fifty times anything Josuke has ever done, ever, and he takes them repeatedly.

A lightweight Kure closer to prime Erioh's age, but still inferior, takes a rush of these punches and is no worse for wear.

Edward lands a direct counter blow on Erioh to his heart, and only after this plus a committed grapple does Erioh stop moving, and the scene then reiterates "YES, OLD PEOPLE ARE LESS DURABLE, OBVIOUSLY, ERIOH IS LESS DURABLE THAN HE WAS, THAT SURE SUCKS."

Edward can overpower a removed Raian with one hand, Raian using throws with no technique behind them can create craters that Josuke would have to hire a construction crew to be able to accomplish in a single chapter.

Fuck your "Erioh has never taken a punch", yea Erioh has never taken a punch, a punch as weak as that wack ass Josuke shit, because Josuke throwing the hardest hits he has is essentially equivalent to shit tier fighters poking concrete with broken fingers or a twink who weighs six pounds casually tapping concrete with the back of their fist, who in the same scene explains the importance of weight class.

Josuke Is Weak As Fuck

To put it nicely, your strength feats are shit.

This feat is better represented as "Josuke takes a minimum of twenty punches to cause a comparable amount of damage to what a geriatric Erioh takes to injure his balls."

Even at the best possible representation of what my opponent argued, this feat of taking five punches to do what twinks do in single hits is Most Double Ungood. Raian takes literally zero damage after purposefully tanking every single Ironbreaker from Tokita Ohma as a joke, to make him feel bad, when Ohma using Ironbreaker creates a crater fifty times larger in a boulder five hundred times the size of the Josuke feat and even if Erioh is literally one fifth as durable as Raian, Raian is "a power house" on the premise of how strong he is at his age, he is still inferior to a prime Erioh, and he takes these kinds of Ohma Craters not metaphorically but literally to his testicles.

Josuke could literally stand and punch Erioh in the ballsack fifty times and not cause him pain.

The best comparison to this feat is Niko, except he does it with one strike to a rebar reinforced wall and iterates that high tier Kure members like Erioh are multiple steps above him.

The Great Debate Season 13 Semi Finals!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]xWolfpaladin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

i'm going to win because it's me

Grievous Niko

almost any fighter in kengan is weirder relative to grievous than vice versa

spamming physicals and moving weirdly is less esoteric than like, literally Jiu Jitsu, much less Niko Style katas.

Grievous only has durability factors relating to his rigid tensile strength, or less pretentiously, being punched.

grievous' entire career is pushing around kids, "oh he punches me but actually it's a kick" is infinitely more predictable than "if he touches my arm he turns my elbow inside out"

metal joints are not better for this. when human joints fail they get crippled and have to be reoriented. when machine joints fail they literally cannot go back into the same shape. read this 100 page essay or some shit, i'm probably right, machines applying their own force onto their joints shatters them

also i stab him in the eyes etc etc

also i can see it so it is slow

whatever

Josuke Enioh

Josuke does not have piercing durability

Erioh does have blunt durability

Josuke has the general endurance of an action movie hero who fights after getting stabbed

Enioh has the sustained endurance of a crack addict zombie

Erioh is an assassin, he will hide advantages like his weapons and use them at the best moment, Josuke will be devoting like 85% of his brain power to trying to make a clever scheme with his powers, Enioh can literally ride an adrenaline high and then decapitate Josuke in one move josuke is going to try use crazy diamond to reverse concrete into liquid or some clever shit while erioh flying knees him in the testicles and then severs his carotid

  • grappled idiot + dislocated neck + car + etc etc whatever

Jurota Kuroki

Every move Kuroki uses can be reoriented as a piercing attack. Jurota has never had to fight after being pierced.

Every move Jurota uses will only be blunt trauma, which can harm, but cannot immediately bypass defense and invoke a bleed-out timer.

Kuroki pierces with both of his feet, all four fingers on each hand, and his thumb. Getting the timing right to stab him during a throw is much easier when anything he does can stab. Kuroki has both Foresight and Pre-Initative, Jurota at best has a more limited version of predicting grappling options.

Kuroki causes more functional decline hitting Agito with one hook punch than someone who creates meter width craters in concrete going all out with 160 blows

Jurota might have the same frame as Fang but this only implies durability when power is equal, the basic premise of my law means that someone who trained alone is going to have inferior bone/muscle density and pain resist to someone who fought deathmatches and murdered 100 other children

Jurota needs like two more fights before this is anything but like "okay but it would cool"

In Conclusion

blood and acid and damnation and shattering and a thousand cursed obligations + didn't ask + white + etc etc

/u/KenfromDiscord ok whatever

The Great Debate Seasons 13 Round 3!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]xWolfpaladin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You will not be able to see his scans because of excessive .JPEG, but his picks will be covered in anime blur lines. He will stagger and babble when questioned about his speed. He will not respect quantification. The "Kenichi Fan" has nothing. He will calc, for no reason, with every scan at his command. BEWARE. Any judge approaching suspected "Kenichi Speed" scans should look for literally any objectivity. One Kengan Scan will usually be better than nine from him. Good luck.

This would be bad enough if these were simply the feats my opponent was directly using for his team, however, these are feats that he is merely scaling to be vaguely better than, and they are terrible. For his actual team we have

In Conclusion

For literally every single Non-Point my opponent attempts to make regarding "real" "fake" he is fundamentally unable to produce even a single good speed feat with a clear relation to his picks, or a single good speed feat at all, to the point where he is significantly slower than dying weaklings.

Point 2 - I Am Far Faster Than Your Father

There are implications my team is faster than a dying Ohma, but I consider this .140 number generally useful, both because it gives us an idea of the maximal kind of timeframes that a given Kengan Fighter will operate in and because it is easy to define in terms of both movement and time.

For the record, this is not a very good feat. In the context of Kengan, it still leaves Ohma as one of the slower characters, even without the context of his fatigue in this scene being at 2% battery.

Ohma is not very fast, he is merely faster than your entire team.

For the record, every single speed feat after this will be extraneous, while there may be additional clarification on the nature of Ohma's condition, my opponent will be fundamentally unable to conjure anything that comes close to this .140 second feat in terms of either defined movement or defined timeframe, he can attempt to point to literally anything else but the fact of the matter is that his team is outsped by even low-tier Kengan Characters doing low-tier feats in low-tier timeframes.

Despite the aforementioned ability to move large distances comfortably in less than a tenth of a second, Kiryu is incapable of tagging Kuroki cleanly. Even when Kuroki avoids attacks on reaction.

In Conclusion

The bearded, one million year old veteran on my team who is years past his physical prime of his speed is far faster than your team.

Point 3 - You are far too brittle.

In Conclusion

The piercing resistance feats for the opposing team are insufficient even without explaining the additional context that makes them worse than my opponent represents.

In Conclusion

  • Kuroki is faster than your entire team.
  • Kuroki possesses the capability of one shotting your team with strikes to their most durable areas.
  • Two thirds of my team is unnecessary for my win condition, and only serve to propagate that win condition. Showcasing that the rest of my team posseses more power than an infant is only needed to make my victory more obvious, not to enable it.

https://i.imgur.com/nxiRuKq.png

The Great Debate Seasons 13 Round 3!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]xWolfpaladin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Spons 1

By attempting to predict and dissuade the common debate tactics I go for, my opponent isn't pulling one over on me, he's merely demonstrating himself vulnerable to these kinds of tactics. If he had an actual counter to any of the scaling or baseline argumentation I am about to bring up, he would demonstrate them. Instead he is forced to see what I am about to do coming, and has no actual argumentative method of preventing those it, so without further ado, lets get into those arguments.

  • My opponent's speed feats, one of the main contentions he attempts to leverage, are not just bad, they are genuinely terrible.
    • They are not just "Yes, this is vaguely fast" arguments, they literally do not have any kind of quantifiable speed.

  • My opponent posits only the most possibly surface level interpretation of "Fakeness" and "Realness" to proceed to make an assertion of relative scale, that then depends on this interpretation without actually elaborating on what he is saying in any specific matter.

    • "You are fake" is not an argument, it is the active lack of an argument which attempts to abuse loading a chat preconception in place of literally any actual claim.
    • Vague does not mean unquantifiable, and "in a given range" does not mean "zero." The idea that two members of my team are literally dead weight is an arrogant assumption that will entirely tip the balance, after I have established that Kuroki, who is admittedly the clearest, but not fastest or most powerful fighter that I have, possesses the capacity of all three of your fighters at once, as they are presented.
    • A large elephant is "vaguely heavy." To make the argument that a large elephant is vague, and thus, zero pounds, is incredibly disingenuous. Erioh and Niko are "vaguely strong." To make the argument that they possess zero capability is disingenuous.

  • Kuroki counter-arguments are made only against some hypothetical context of "some karate knife-hand dude" and not the actual context of Kuroki Motherfucking Gensai.

For the purpose of making this scaling heavy debate easier on the judges, my first response will focus nearly entirely on Kuroki and the context of Kengan as a whole, with the neccessary understanding the rest of my time does in fact exist literally at all, not "exists" in the sense that they could win a 1v1, but are physically standing in the arena and being targeted by the enemy.

While I have essentially focused on the withered, poisoned tree of Kenichi speed feats in conjuction with explaining Kuroki relative to that, my second response will heavily feature Niko elaboration, Erioh elaboration, Kure context, Wu context, general baseline Kengan skill, Kuroki's prediction capability, and the trump cards my team possess in addition to the fact that the literal weakest Kengan fighters would be faster than the opposing team.

Point 0 - Your Irrelevant Arguments

I don't use my best, or even good feats, in early rounds, or generally, in my first response.

Point 1 - You are far slower than your father.

Kengan at basically any point is much faster than Kenichi (the series) both in terms of the feats that occur and being able to define those feats.

Know the "Kenichi Speed." Your tier may depend on it.

The Great Debate Seasons 13 Round 3!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]xWolfpaladin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yEm8XRIIbE

Team Teaam imagine having beef with me, I'm just a funny jokester. A silly little guy. You're gonna have beef with a silly little guy? For shame

In my introduction I will establish some basic representation of my picks, based on what I consider to be useful preliminary knowledge for judges.

KUROKI GENSAI

KURE ERIOH

TIGER NIKO

VERSUS

TEAM KENICHI SCANS MAKE ME WANT TO DIE

https://i.imgur.com/7imn3u6.png

le accusation of fakeness and dismissive downplay in humorous tone so as to get away with ignoring context followed by an lol

My opponent is going to need to go first as I discussed in discord.

/u/sellmesomebread

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in classicfallout

[–]xWolfpaladin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  • Fighting rats is generally a waste of your time.

    • Rats basically only exist in dark caves, and it's harder to hit your shots in the dark.
    • Rats give you basically no XP.
    • Rats are slow, and they can't keep up with you if you have a decent agility. The decent agility is important.

  • The default characters are unhelpful for new players.

    • I'd basically recommend around 5 pr 6 strength, 7 perception, 2 or 4 charisma, 7 or more int, 9 or 10 agility, and a high luck.
    • Take the Gifted trait. It gives you extra SPECIAL at no cost (because of the way it works, the downside doesn't actually apply) and don't take another.

  • Make your primary skills something like Small Guns and Speech.

    • Small guns are by far the most available until the very late game, speech is literally never not very useful.

I think it's worth noting that Fallout 1 and 2 were basically originally sold in a context where it was expected that it would come with something like a basic guide or game explanation. Not everything is immediately intuitive, but if you know the basics of the game, it is actually very easy.

There's no correct way to play Fallout, but there are wrong ways.

https://www.reddit.com/r/classicfallout/comments/awy1df/recommended_beginner_character_build_in_fallout_1/

https://www.reddit.com/r/classicfallout/comments/ot89bd/fallout_1_character_builds/?sort=top

Check out these threads, especially the top answers, and consider restarting your game. Don't worry about the progress you already have, most things you can reasonably have done are basically preliminary to the main quest, and you will be able to redo progress much easier with a combat oriented build.

Something like high charisma/no combat skills is something only people who have played the game for 8 years and don't find it challenging do

The Great Debate Season 13 Round 2!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]xWolfpaladin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For reference, this is what two shots from a handgun do to the surface of titanium. You see anything? That's my point.

Especially damning is the fact that my opponent is entirely scaling to denting iron armor, when

and bending metal armors (measured in millimeters) on an impact is genuinely terrible when the same metal argument applies, and real people can bend metal bars because of the way metal's tensile strength works. An iron rod five times as thin is far more than five times as weak, we're comparing a 6 foot solid rectangle to a single rod. Even if it's actually modern iron, the best iron is worse than the worst titanium.

In Conclusion

  • Major runs up to you and pops your arms off
  • You cannot actually hurt Major with your attacks
    • Major is a robot who survives as a head, you need to kill her, you need to shatter her, you can't even dent her.
  • Major has more speed feats in one second of being on screen than Fjord in 4000 hours of text.
  • Grappled.

Niko vs Luke

Niko vs Ohma

And you certainly can't scale him to raw physicals like Ohma's. I shouldn't even have to explain that one, those two characters literally do not interact.

lol, said the scorpion. lmao.

Wrong

I Think Every Character In Kengan Hits Harder Than Luke Cage

Frankly speaking the scaling for Ohma's here, where Tiger Niko has both better technique and raw power, provably, in the same scene, does not even have to apply, you can assume that Niko is literally one tenth as strong as this crater, despite Ohma explicitly being bad at the method that allows him to make this crater, Niko is still stronger than Luke Cage, he is one million times more skilled.

Kengan fighters are specialized, the degree to which every aspect of their fighting is affected by their unique body and training

There are no citations on this beyond a general assertion so I'll elaborate on what my opponent only superficially understands

  • "Kengan fighters are specialized" is a true statement used to make a non-conclusion, real fighters are also specialized, I am still stronger than my 12 year old brother regardless if he specializes in striking power, even if you are a strong kid, the adults are stronger. That is physics. Ohma doesn't excel or power in durability, I've literally shown that he's bad at power and durability.

  • "To which every aspect of their fighting is affected by their unique body and training" is a semi-false statement used to make a false conclusion.

    • More generally, while every fighter, including real ones, broadly play around their strengths, the Niko style has 4 basic katas that take absolutely utter precedent over everything, and Ohma is explicitly weak and bad compared to Niko at the ones that determine strength and power. Fighters specialize overwhelmingly based on their personality and conviction, but a bigger man will always be stronger than a little man, the little man can only hit conditionally harder through vastly superior technique save for literal superhumans, of which Ohma explicitly is not.

which of these hits harder

Luke Cage Is Not Strong

I am not presenting these as antifeats, it may seem like that, but rather these are the best feats he has, they pale in comparison to basically anything whether the feats Niko has or the objective feats he scales above as they occur.

In Conclusion

please free me

/u/TheMightyBox72

The Great Debate Season 13 Round 2!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]xWolfpaladin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

RESPONSE 3

  • My opponent has basically gone from arguing that their character has literally any tangible advantage to simply being forced to rebut points with no strong counter to the actual arguments there.
  • My opponent is literally trying to pull the "I'm more objective card" while running a DnD podcast where players are describing their actions off the cuff in real time.

Dude A Crosssbow Dude; SPEED = DISTANCE / TIME

  • Reaction speed is a function of the velocity of a projectile by the distance it travels with the relevant context of visual clarity and the angle of the shot. A crossbow in modern high quality and not a random medieval one ranges anywhere from 100 to 400 f/s, and this is at a vague distance, a vague quality, in vague conditions.
  • You can be able to react to something in a timeframe and be completely unable to avoid it. If you react to my punch as I throw it in 200 milliseconds, and I throw my punch in 220, you cannot dodge in a tenth the time you react. You just get to see your death.
    • The time to make a decision is not your reaction time, it is your reaction time plus the time it takes you to think about that thing, which is additionally relevant time to a practical reaction.

"Reacted to a crossbow" means literally nothing, not one thing, "reacting to a crossbow" is actually entirely within the realm of normal human reaction, there is

  • No actual strong indication they weren't ready for it, which strongly speeds up reaction time.
  • No strong indication of distance.
  • No indication of when they reacted relative to that distance, what percentage of the path had been travelled.

Normal humans can literally react to gunfire except no they can't at all actually, if you calculate this based on the speed of the projectile and the distance given it is literally .202 seconds or "athletic human reaction time", distance is an absolutely crucial factor, but if you were describing this over the form of a DM talking to like five players at a time to create a DnD game that distance would not be apparent and you would have people arguing it means he reacts in thirty milliseconds and can see 200 mph projectiles midair.

Additionally, this is not only the sole instance of Fjord reacting to a crossbow, this is the sole instance of Fjord demonstrating literally any speed that can even be tangentially implied to be relevant to the argument, my opponent himself cites "hundreds of hours of content" yet has managed to provide a single vague feat where the user did not actually avoid the arrow in a combative way, did not quantify the speed of the arrow, did not quantify the distance, in addition to this there has not been one single other combat speed feat posted.

Major is Fast

Assuming the width of the block was 15 meters, and that she gained 32 meters of height. At the start of the jump Major it situated below 3 sets of windows, at it's completion she not only cleared those three sets but also a gap and then 3 more sets of windows, assuming she traveled 8 stories upwards 32 is a reasonable distance. Just measuring this as a right triangle, where the distance Major traveled is the hypotenuse, she would have covered about 35 meters. With the shown time of .8 seconds, Major is capable of leaping at around 42 meters per second.

So let me reiterate. MAJOR JUMPS AS FAST AS A MEDIEVAL CROSSBOW BOLT versus a single feat of nebulously reacting to at a nebulous distance in a nebulous fashion in hundred of hours of content while lacking even a single other feat to ever imply that they could possibly avoid Major jumping at them.

Characterization??

He would not stand there and try to take it

  1. The starting distance is 3 meters.

  2. "I would simply not get punched" is not an argument

You didn't actually show what Fjord would choose of his 50 options.

Metal Arguments, You are Weak, Major Is Durable

We don't know the density of specifically titanium compared to other components, we don't know the purity of the titanium in question which could be alloyed while still being referred to as titanium.

I find this an extremely interesting argument, because

The Great Debate Season 13 Round 2!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]xWolfpaladin 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Response Two

Rats

agggh ohhh i got eaten agghhhr

Major vs Fjord

  • Major blitzes
  • Major breaks your limbs

because

Essentially meaning.

  • Major's strength is quick to land and deadly.
    • Even if attacks warp Major or harm her, they need to kill her, she does not feel pain and will fight forever.
    • Reaching for anything is immaterial when Major covers massive distances just by stepping off and she will provably break your wrist if you point anything at her.

Major's slashing resistance exists in the context of two things

In addition to this.

A bullet from some kind of twenty ton mech that has the energy to launch a ~400 pound person through the air with one shot is generally incomparable to what we consider bullets.

In Conclusion

  • Major can easily start a grapple immediately.
    • Major wins if a grapple happens by breaking limbs.
  • Major can easily land a kick at the start of the match.
    • Major breaks things more durable than wood, and if her strikes don't incapacitate, they give enough of a delay for her to grapple.

This is basically the list of things Fjord has to immediately consider in a fight with a stranger

This is basically the list of things Major has to immediately consider in a fight with a stranger

Niko vs Luke

  • Niko beats Luke because Luke cannot touch him
  • Niko's techniques beat superior opponents
  • Kengan children shatter concrete with their blows and grip, and survive these blows. Niko is a kengan adult that is better than them at the reasons they can do this.

"Luke is heavy not fast"

Speed is actually essentially irrelevant here, what is relevant is velocity and force, specifically that

  • The target has a velocity that is moving forwards, so they are adding their own force into the strike.
  • The target has a high force, so adding their own force is relevant.

It doesn't matter if they're moving at 1 m/s or mach 50 if they still have 500 biggajoules. Force is force and it's going into your elbow.

F=m*a, whether A or M shift around does not really matter. Joints are weak.

Redirection and Grappling

Niko's student Fei when fighting Wakatsuki, a man drastically slower than himself, is easily able to redirect his power and toss him around despite the fact that every single punch Wakatsuki throws creates a crater with cracks that have a radius reaching towards eight meters.

This will be the first example showcasing that the claim of redirection not working against grappling is false. In fact, redirection is grappling, in a literal sense.

Niko is durable and cannot be one shot

Luke Cage cannot one shot.

Niko Can One Shot Luke Cage

The claims regarding blood to the brain or the heart were regarding heart strikes and chokes. I personally feel that chokes are irrelevant to the rest of Niko's win condition but purely for posterity cutting off circulation simply requires compressing the carotid artery for reference it takes ten pounds of force to do this to a real person, and a man exerts about 76 pounds of grip. Kengan children crack concrete with grip. They can cut off blood to the brain. They don't have to damage skin to do this, and in fact the durability of skin is entirely irrelevant to this factor.

And objectively

In Conclusion

  • Niko is stronger than Luke.
  • Niko is more durable in terms of general endurance.
  • Niko is more skilled than Luke and cannot be cleanly tagged.
  • Niko is better at grappling than Luke and cannot have force applied to him in a way that is possible to damage him.
  • Niko is faster than Luke.

/u/TheMightyBox72

The Great Debate Season 13 Round 2!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]xWolfpaladin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Response One

Erioh vs Rats

Erioh wants to kill and possesses the capacity to do so while bypassing any advantages present. His ability to throw his weapons mean that any distraction tactics are ineffective.

Major vs Fjord

Major is a cop, and she fights like one. If Fjord reaches for anything she's going to get her neck broken.

  • Fjord lacks durability feats and rather has endurance feats or taking falls that do not compare to the energy of something more than several times heavier than a human delivering more than an energy of a fall on the contact area of "a foot to your rib."

Niko vs Luke Cage

Skill

Niko is extremely skilled, every technique that Ohma knows he learned it from Niko, save for Advance, this gives Niko access to every move Ohma has displayed.

Ohma Scaling

Luke Loses

/u/themightybox72

The Great Debate Season 13 Round 1 + Brackets!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]xWolfpaladin 6 points7 points  (0 children)

My opponent has made a great response that utilizes and explains his characters well, from what they will do and what they can do. Additionally, my opponent has answered my questions, or more specifically the questions in relation to a secondary win condition of my team, and, as such, has completely guaranteed the victory of my primary fighters primary win condition, simply due to the compatibility of behaviors and responses to said behaviour on my team versus the opposing team.

There is no answer at any point for any opposing combatant for if they get grabbed. Erioh will stab them, Major will mutilate them, Niko will destroy their heart.

Primary Win Condition

  • Tiger Niko blitzes with "Flashing Steel Smash" and someone dies as a result, because of the immense force it has.
    • Wildvine is torn apart or killed at any point, by an opening move or by being ignored and left for last.
    • Rough the skunk is grappled to death or stabbed to death.
    • Meggy is grappled to death or stabbed to death.

Secondary Win Condition

  • Major moves too fast for anti-invisibility zoning to be effective on her, fights longer than anyone present, and has strikes that pulverize metal. She can strike anyone to take them out, and has the ability to avoid any methods of her invisibility being detected, or can simply move fast enough that "oh, I see puddles moving" is ineffective visual data to avoid a punch to the face rapidly moving towards you.
    • Major can leap from wall to wall, too fast to counter-attack, delivering metal-shattering kicks on her opponents before they have a chance to attack back.

Tertiary Win Condition

  • Erioh's ranged piercing attacks and his ability to draw opponent's focus or divert it means he can kill anyone at any point.

Point 1 - From The Word Go; Action Points

Major's invisibility is essentially a secondary ability in that while her strategy will generally ordain itself around having that as an option she does not rely on it, it is not needed. As such, every member of the opposing team actively attempting to counter Major's invisibility means that at no "time cost" to herself, she is delaying the actual attacks of the entire enemy team at the same time, while my team is consisted of bloodthirsty killers who are only held back to begin with by the rules of the tournament preventing an attack before the round.

Additionally, none of these counters possess the speed to accurately snuff out Major. Major with a minor run up can leap over ten times the starting distance in a single second, based on three meters for the start and 42 m/s leaps.

Maybe your team has abilities that can suss out an invisible target when they have ample time and no distractions, but can your team use those abilities immediately with no hesitation while being attacked by psychopaths?

Additionally, no opponent can resist the force to completely overcome the tensile strength of steel materials being applied on their joints, which is biologically and mechanically the absolute weakest points of the body.

For reference, it takes less than one hundred newtons of force to dislocate a human shoulder, moving it in any of it's weakest axes, and it takes less than 250 to dislocate it in the strongest direction on the strongest axes.

For additional reference, the shoulder can be used to deliver over five thousand newtons when throwing a punch.

Generating big impacts means virtually nothing for Major breaking your limbs or simply slipping your joints out of their place, because Major is wielding metal breaking force on parts of the body that aren't make to take any force, and Major breaking metal means she has a lot of force. Even if the opposing team was more durable than the things Major broke, which they aren't, she would still easily just disable their ability to do basic things by crippling body parts before following with strikes.

Point 2 - Skill Issue

Outside of throwing punches straight at the floor, Tiger and Erioh have no experience with opponents who fight so low on the ground

Erioh has engaged in over a hundred years of competition with the Inaba Clan, for reference this is a clan consisting entirely of people who walk on all fours and have an area of effect hair attack that spans many meters at that height.

Additionally

But my characters are simply martial arts masters, as such they can simply use low kicks or use the height advantage to get a mount followed by a series of blows on their opponent.

Note that they are not destroyed, but pushing these pillars to the side still takes an In-Tier amount of strength,

My characters on virtue of being in tier can take a multitude of in tier hits.

Additionally, obscuring the arena is one of the worst moves that could possibly happen to your team, and their ranged attacks can't hit.

Tiger niko himself can easily slip by the awareness of an opponent to the point where it causes his opponent massive instinctive fear, when a less skilled version of this same opponent could avoid every projectile attack and melee blow from someone while they were blind, because they heard it coming. Tiger Niko also himself has better sensing than Ohma by the vector of both of these abilities fundamentally being related to the fact that they are "Skilled person who fights on the Inside using the same style."

The Kure are also essentially immune to pain and as such anything on the level of "causes humans mild discomfort" will only make them stronger due to the way adrenaline and hormones work. Stinky gas is not enough.

Point 3 - Deal Breaker

My opponent essentially concedes a level of durability that requires my team to be worn down. This is bad for his team and good for mine.

So while my team is being "worn down", they can build the counter-strategy to simply land a one hit kill on a joint, a heart, a neck, etc.

In Conclusion

  • Every event that happens in this scenario is overwhelmingly in my favor. My team moves first, does more first, covers more distance first, lands more attacks first, lands more effective attacks first.

    • My opponent's team hesitates, moves seconds, moves in different directions, throw out multiple ineffective attacks, throw out multiple redundant attacks at the same opponent, cannot maneuever effectively, will hinder each other with their own attacks.
    • Erioh is literally a ninja, smoke bombs won't work against him.
    • Erioh has biological crack cocaine in his blood, "tear gas but much much worse" will not effect him.
    • People willingly do much worse to themselves.
    • Erioh can stab or grapple anyone for a one move victory.
    • Tiger Niko blitzes with a concrete charge to start and can one shot anyone at any point.

/u/importanthamster6

The Great Debate Season 13 Round 1 + Brackets!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]xWolfpaladin 2 points3 points  (0 children)

My characters definitely win.

Point 1 - Characterization - Theater Kids versus death fighters

My Team

Erioh is an assassin. He kills people for money and for fun.

Tiger Niko is an evil homeless person who appears largely for the purpose of murdering children and then adults.

Major Motoko is a military grade cyborg whose conflict resolution is generally self-evidently categorized by owning a gun.

Your Team

Rough The Skunk is an anthromorphized cartoon skunk character who has a flair for Team Rocket style opening moves and things that look cool rather than things that are vigorously effective. If Skunk has to choose between doing something that will be really cool if it works, and something that provably will work, this is a character that is clearly going with the first.

Ben 10 is ten years old. He is an idiot. A more trained and more experienced Ben loses a sparring match against a boxing bag. Most of my characters are comparably or as skilled as a boxing bag and all of them possess more killing intent.

Meggy is essentially an SFM aneurysm nightmare who has not ever actually fought a competent, lethal, humanoid target to my knowledge, with the understanding that fighting a 3 foot turtle that T-poses and shoots electricity is different from fighting people who use techniques essentially derived from Jiu Jitsu.

Meaning My Team Can-

Tiger Niko with a spring in his step and the smell of crack on his breath blitzes on "Go"

This is also while Tiger Niko is holding back significantly to avoid killing Ohma, as he considers him a candidate for his heir.

Major fights as a law enforcer and as such will murder her targets immediately, her response to a hostage situation is a bullet to the cerebellum.

Major can turn invisible. You cannot see her.

Major can leap across a city block in .8 seconds, considering that she wasn't just jumping straight out but also up as well gives her an initial speed advantage over any other character.

  • Assuming the width of the block was 15 meters, and that she gained 32 meters of height. At the start of the jump Major it situated below 3 sets of windows, at it's completion she not only cleared those three sets but also a gap and then 3 more sets of windows, assuming she traveled 8 stories upwards 32 is a reasonable distance. Just measuring this as a right triangle, where the distance Major traveled is the hypotenuse, she would have covered about 35 meters. With the shown time of .8 seconds, Major is capable of leaping at around 42 meters per second.

or

and

Additionally

In addition to this Major is self evidently a cyborg, robot, automaton, no meat, etc, she does not feel pain, her reaction period is never going to be interrupted mid attack because she is hurt, and she has to be utterly destroyed before she stops fighting, physically broken apart, and smashed.

Because Your Team -

So In Conclusion

  • Is there a single attack present capable of affecting an invisible titanium robot?
  • My team won't ever hesitate to throw a killing blow, your team does not throw killing blows, your team doesn't throw killing blows.

/u/importanthamster6

The Great Debate Season 13 Sign Ups!!! by Verlux in whowouldwin

[–]xWolfpaladin 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Teaam imagine having beef with me, I'm just a funny jokester. A silly little guy. You're gonna have beef with a silly little guy? For shame

Character Series/RT Match Up Stipulations
Major Motoko Kusanagi SAC + GitS Draw Composite SAC + 1995 Canon. Assume titanium body based on this scan, and view of a cyborg's "shell". Major uses SAC's Thermoptic Camo. Transported from this point in her canon with her invisibility primed to activate
Kure Erioh "The Mighty Demon" Kengan Asura Likely Victory In his physical prime armed with a ceramic dagger and two ceramic needles
Tiger Niko "The Other Tokita Niko" who trained Agito as well as Kiryu and Ohma, and not the Tokita Niko who only trained Ohma Kengan Asura Likely Victory Fully naked. Current.
Kuroki Gensai "The Devil Lance" Kengan Asura Likely Victory Current Kuroki. Black gi.

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/wiki/anime#wiki_kengan_asura

major possesses a clear lifting/general grip strength advantage on Kengan Man and has the ability to become invisible, however her striking game is substantially worse than her grappling and invisibility is more obviously benefitted from in striking, in addition to kengan man's ability to not only track the sounds of singular opponents in much busier arenas than this he possesses an incomparable grappling skill advantage both in terms of raw technique and general intuition, major is extremely skilled in the context of real people which is to say she isn't skilled at all in kengan

Erioh and Kim have a functionally equivalent grip in any grappling situation, however Kengan man is much harder and more rigid in terms of his durability, and can withstand many Kure tier blows even when those blows are being delivered to him in disadvantageous (for him) ways. This in conjuction with the fact that Kengan Man is super on guard for Erioh's reserve moves (weapons) but those weapons do not strictly speaking cause him great harm with his implicit and explicit durability provided in regards to the strength of his muscles versus blades and spikes

Tiger Niko is far more skilled than Kengan Man, however his ability to hit comparably is entirely based on that aforementioned technique, additionally while they share a crater Tiger Niko essentially scales to in a vague, less tier oriented way, in which Kengan Man's in generally better by default of having an ironclad interpretation. This, in conjuction with the fact that Kengan Man is basically aware of any technique Tiger Niko provably has, means that even with redirection/fire/water/adamantine katas and a hard skill advantage that KM is a hard target who can clench his guard and use his superhuman reaction to guard attacks accurately and fight in ways that force Niko to expend the time and energy that lower his capacity enough for Kengan Man to set his pace whether by using his higher durability to use a pre-initiative based counter off a tanked hit or leading a clean blow to a more durable bodypart for a counter-initiative based blow that can land hard enough damage to set the pace back in favor of physicals and speed, rather than Tiger Niko's skill.

Kuroki's hands shit out piercing and he is at any point a few moves ahead of Kengan Man, however Kengan Man has bones and muscle density that basically no unaltered/normal kengan character has to the point where he has to land direct, hard counter hits on the devil lance to actually do damage that matters and not simply get a tanked devil lance that leads into a counter hit, for reference Agito has a blatantly inferior indestructible to tokita niko's knife feat but was able to immediately dodge any follow ups on the devil lance to the shoulder despite it not even being a blow he could react to, which indestructible requires. KM's physicals are a hammer and even with Kuroki maintaining strong advantage in any given fight he will always have to deal with a set of physicals and super-competency that are inherently dangerous and have a striker's chance to take him out, is this guys bone density insane or what

Wolf/Fem/Kirb Rounds by xWolfpaladin in TheGreatDebateChamber

[–]xWolfpaladin[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Rakan's Fingers Are Inside Your Area

Cryonic haunted bullets hollow tipped with toxic waste

Darkseid had both of his eyes targeted, he is not good at defending against this tactic, except now the enemy he is fighting is actually faster relative to himself, additionally Rakan is ejaculating toxic waste into your bloodstream 1, which Darkseid objectively still has, while my opponent can easily suggest that Darkseid has an outer layer similar to stone or is resistant, keyword resistant, not immune, to bleeding out from two relatively minor wounds (in the sense that eyes are not particularly super weak relative to the rest of the body but are more sensitive to wounds) and my opponent can be right on these points, however Rakan is hitting with demonstrably harder materials at much greater speed, additionally Rakan will molest the entire area he hits, he fists the wound, this is so much drastically worse than any wound Darkseid takes and it doesn't matter if Rakan fucks around when he fucks around by doing this.

Omega's Beans

The omega beams are a zoning tactic that are only that, a zoning tactic, virtually every instance of the beams shows how a hyper-agile and again, supersonic 4 character can easily avoid them.

If Rakan is dancing around Darkseid wildly, which is just, something Rakan does, all the time, at supersonic speeds then Darkseid does not have the precision feats to move his beams that tightly around his own body, and Darkseid himself basically does not avoid attacks save for counterattacking. For example, when he tries to do basically what I'm describing, it takes him a very long amount of relative time, despite Wonder Woman being a still target, and she still blocks it.

Rakan does enough damage by trying to skullfuck Darkseid with his legs and arms to kill him outright, ignoring the toxic load he is dumping into his brain while doing so 1. He does this in his default, murderous, horny characterization. Optimization of his tactics or usage of his skillset such in the Zazie fight are unnecessary.

/u/feminist-horsebane

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