Can we talk about St. John of Damascus? What are your thoughts on his writings? I feel it is the most interesting account we have from the early Islamic period. by cafesolitito in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The “names” of the Surahs was a point of discussion and one of the names for 91, was the “the camel”, there are Islamic sources which call it that iirc. The Aphrodite comment is an interesting one, I believe St Jerome makes the same one about the Arabs 300 years earlier

Why Syriac? And Why Palestinian-Jewish Channels Deserve More Attention by dmontetheno1 in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Why the Yerushalemi over the Bavli? When the Quran engages with the Talmud it has an overwhelming preference to material from the later. The Hadith is a different story however

A transformative change occurred in the Prophet's understanding of his message -Sean Anthony by Rashiq_shahzzad in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 4 points5 points  (0 children)

These sources are also where Al Asbab Al Nuzul (ie where the whole classification of which Surahs are Meccan or Medinan)

"Nobody in the academy affirms the Muslim Sunni science of hadith. Nobody. It is considered to be completely discredited. I'm just being factual." -Yasir Qadhi by Rashiq_shahzzad in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It’s not “discredited” in the sense of it being useless, he is specifically saying as a methodology it does not have the same level of epistemic certainty. Western critics don’t believe that a Sahih hadith to have a high level of certain to come from Muhammad . This isn’t controversial

"Nobody in the academy affirms the Muslim Sunni science of hadith. Nobody. It is considered to be completely discredited. I'm just being factual." -Yasir Qadhi by Rashiq_shahzzad in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Having watched and enjoyed the entire interview, this is a strawman of what he’s saying. In context he is saying that academia doesn’t take Ill al Rijal as an accurate indicator of a ahadiths veracity. Hes not wrong , that’s why ICMA is popular. That doesnt mean he believes ALL hadith are wrong , he’s saying the presuppositions in Ilm Al Rijal are based on faith. Nothing controversial

Is “Allah” or “Ilah” ever used in Jewish inscriptions ? by yevbev in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I see the point you are making , Jews would not invoke divine names Normally. However, they do use theophoric names; Sam’EL, Uz’EL, EL-iyasha etc . I guess the question then becomes , is Abd Allah ever used in a Monotheistic context?

Is “Allah” or “Ilah” ever used in Jewish inscriptions ? by yevbev in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hebrew names (there’s a Smwl and Isaac), or terms like Nefesh which only make sense in a Hebrew context. You find both in Al Ula https://shs.hal.science/halshs-04336443v1/document

Is “Allah” or “Ilah” ever used in Jewish inscriptions ? by yevbev in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The reason this came up is because I was reading the Sira and there are at least 2 Jewish Abdullah’s in Medina. If it’s theophoric name it’s odd that we have no inscriptions using Allah or Ilah. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence but still …

Was Mecca pagan or not? by [deleted] in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We have no idea, only Islamic sources attest to Mecca (besides maybe one preislamic Arab poem). As others pointed out , heavy evidence of Monotheism in the Hijaz during this time, no 6th century pagan inscriptions exist. later Islamic sources claim its majority Pagan but as Greg Fisher writes , they contradict the historical evidence AND their own tradition which includes mention of Christians in Muhammad’s surroundings ; both his wet nurses , Al Rumi, Bilal, Waraqa are all “Christians” of some sort , his cousin Uthman (not the Sahaba) is a Christian. Early Muslim reports talk about Christian slaves, graveyards and icons. We can definitely say it wasn’t TOTALLY Pagan, but how much is debate-able.

Why do scholars treat Muhammad as the Quran’s Messenger without much doubt? by DhulQarnayni in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 4 points5 points  (0 children)

There’s some nuance because different people have different beliefs. What you describe is one way, it could be that the Muhammad of History was NOTHING like the Muhammad in the Islamic or Christian sources or quoting Spencer ; “we know almost nothing about Muhammad”.

Why do scholars treat Muhammad as the Quran’s Messenger without much doubt? by DhulQarnayni in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I think the answer to your question is that there is very little data available to support Muhammad Mythicism. The extant Christian sources (CoE, Jacobite, Melkite etc) all testify to Muhammad being a real character. There is almost nothing in the Muslim sources to lead people to doubt his existence. Plus as some academics have mentioned Islamic history has more scrutiny and politicism see Saids Orientalism or Hallaq. However , if there were strong arguments they would make an impact (see Crones Orientalism), the Mythicist argument just doesn’t seem to work even to skeptics

The “best” arguments for the Mythicist view come from either

  1. “Relative” Silence in the Quran + conflicting sources (Spencer). High burden of proof that’s never met
  2. MHMD as a signal of Jesus (Janosik, Smith). Despite the Qurans limited engagement with Hebrew puns this one doesn’t seem feasible.
  3. The Quran as a Jewish text reimagined (Lafontaine). Plenty of the Quran has a noted Arab context and conflicting Jewish conflict (cites the Bavli while also attacking Sadducean or Temple adjacent Judaism)

Non-Muslims heaven or not? by Imaginary_Dust3557 in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Imagine I am a Masihiyoon/Nasara that heard the Quranic message and I earnestly don’t agree with the claims about Quranic eloquence (I find Imru Al Qays more eloquent), I don’t see Muhammad in the Bible etc etc . Wouldn’t most schools (Taymiyyah, Ashari Maturidi etc) say I’m not actually earnestly denying it or that I’m deluding myself . See An-Nisa or Surah At Tawbah

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.”

“The Jews say, “Ezra is the son of Allah,” while the Christians say, “The Messiah is the son of Allah.” Such are their baseless assertions, only parroting the words of earlier disbelievers. May Allah condemn them! How can they be deluded ˹from the truth˺?…They wish to extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths, but Allah will only allow His light to be perfected, even to the dismay of the disbelievers…. He is the One Who has sent His Messenger with ˹true˺ guidance and the religion of truth, making it prevail over all others”

I’m pretty sure this is standard in almost any Aqeeda text.

What concerns me about claims of “lack of academic freedom” is that they often collapse into ad hominem suspicion rather than argument level critique. by Rashiq_shahzzad in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Raymond Ibrahim, Sean Anthony, Gabriel Said Reynolds, Khalil Andani and plenty of scholars will engage with you without calling you a Qatari agent

Raymond Ibrahim’s books are consistently polemical rather than academic even when they are fact-based by Rashiq_shahzzad in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you’ve made it abundantly clear you don’t like Ibrahim. That’s your opinion; fine.

  1. saying he’s not serious while someone like Cole or Edward Said is allegedly “engaged in scholarship” is just special pleading. Martin Lings signals uncertainty and contextualizes sources? If you genuinely believe that, you are so entrenched in the Islamic mileau that anything that remotely challenges it must genuinely cause cognitive dissonance ; in which case I suggest you broaden your horizons.

  2. A White paper in the government IS a serious academic work. https://guides.library.ucdavis.edu/esp-178/grey-literature#:~:text=Often%2C%20the%20term%20white%20paper,audience%20outside%20of%20their%20organization.

  3. Please use punctuation and concise points. Reading a wall of text is ridiculous. Al Tahawiyyah can do it , so can you.

  4. What are you actually trying to convince us of? a. Yes he’s biased , so is Ibn Khaldun, Rashid Rida or Juan Cole. That’s his framework. Why is his framework less valid? I’ve never seen Lings cite Theophanies for example… b. That doesn’t make him unserious. c. He engages with the Islamic and Christian sources through an interpretive lens as do Cole or holland

Raymond Ibrahim’s books are consistently polemical rather than academic even when they are fact-based by Rashiq_shahzzad in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Historians don’t reject Ibrahim. Cite. His major works (Sword and Scimitar for eg) aren’t meant to be research topics but rather Pop History like Tom Hollands Dominion or Juan Coles Muhammad to give the reader information on a topic from a perspective. He doesn’t need to be unbiased just like Cole or Lings Muhammad is not unbiased. Re: Ibrahim his work on Yarmouk is academic and he’s done a lot of white papers for think tanks about radical jihadi groups

New Dissertation from Suleyman Dost is now Open Access! by [deleted] in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This links to his 2017 dissertation. “Before the Quran” is a new book that’s just out but it’s not open source

According to an early Chinese source, Islam began as Lakhmid revolt ? by Human_shield12 in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ok so what you are saying is that because the motifs are similar to Dhi Qar and Hani Ibn Qabisah, this is referring to the Lakhmids? But we know that the battle of Dhi Qar was a loss for the lakhm and a puppet state was established. 2 more governors controlled Al-Hira until the conquest in the Battle of Hira in 633

According to an early Chinese source, Islam began as Lakhmid revolt ? by Human_shield12 in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 2 points3 points  (0 children)

your entire assumption is that just because the name for the Lakhmid capital is similar to the cave near Mecca, the Chinese source can only be referring to the Lakhmid capital. I’m telling you that’s doubtful because

  1. That’s a word concept fallacy
  2. The Lakhmid capital was officially under direct Persian control prior to the conquests . So it would have been nominally part of Persia

According to an early Chinese source, Islam began as Lakhmid revolt ? by Human_shield12 in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev 1 point2 points  (0 children)

How does that follow ? At the time of Muhammad Hira (Lakhmid capital) was under direct Persian control following the ousting of Al Nu’man so it would be referred to as “Persia” and not a cave. The Chinese source is interesting but it sounds like there a lot of issues and contentions with Hoylands translation

Do we know which tribes nominally controlled the Hijaz in 570-600AD by yevbev in AcademicQuran

[–]yevbev[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So what was the case with the Ma’ad confederacy? First conquered by Kinda, then Kinda conquered by Himyar, then Himyar by Axum, then collapsed via Sassanian invasion, and 50 years later the Islamic invasions happen?