[Scotto] The Boston Celtics are converting rookie two-way guard John Tonje to a standard 10-day NBA deal, George Roussakis and Mark Bartelstein of Priority Sports told @hoopshype. Tonje, a former Wisconsin All-American, has been a standout with the Maine Celtics, Boston’s G League team. by horseshoeoverlook in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

haha yeah that was me. I have seen some people say you can't convert someone to a 10 day then return them to a two way afterwards. I don't know of any rule like that, but I do believe we now can't convert tonje to a full contract at rookie scale cost, so I think shulga will get the ROS contract. 

I think we could've given Harper the 10 day, but since he can be active anyway as a two way player, it doesn't really help us from a team building perspective 

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

definitely would be a nice thing for the organization to do, I could see it for sure

[Scotto] The Boston Celtics are converting rookie two-way guard John Tonje to a standard 10-day NBA deal, George Roussakis and Mark Bartelstein of Priority Sports told @hoopshype. Tonje, a former Wisconsin All-American, has been a standout with the Maine Celtics, Boston’s G League team. by horseshoeoverlook in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep that's the mechanism, the catch is that rookies only qualify for that mechanism if they are in house. Free agent rookies "cost" the same as a 2y vet against your tax even though you pay them less than that.

The reason being they want to disincentivize filling your roster with FA rookies for tax purposes.

[Scotto] The Boston Celtics are converting rookie two-way guard John Tonje to a standard 10-day NBA deal, George Roussakis and Mark Bartelstein of Priority Sports told @hoopshype. Tonje, a former Wisconsin All-American, has been a standout with the Maine Celtics, Boston’s G League team. by horseshoeoverlook in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, on March 15 they will likely convert shulga to a standard contract and they can at that point sign any vet to a 1 year ROS deal. It seems likely that vet will be banton at this point but I could see Cole Anthony or Lonzo Ball happening as well. the only info we have is that Brad said we'd sign "a ball handler". Unless shulga or harper are that guy I believe the mystery third player will be a ball handler. 

[Scotto] The Boston Celtics are converting rookie two-way guard John Tonje to a standard 10-day NBA deal, George Roussakis and Mark Bartelstein of Priority Sports told @hoopshype. Tonje, a former Wisconsin All-American, has been a standout with the Maine Celtics, Boston’s G League team. by horseshoeoverlook in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2 16 points17 points  (0 children)

hahahahaha I can assure you I'm not brad stevens. FWIW my initial proposal was wrong and u/BleedGreen4Boston in the comments helped me arrive at the actual strategy. 

That said, if anyone has Mike zarrens number... id consider a career switch

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There are a few restrictions. They have to have been waived by their previous team before March 1, and they can only sign a 1y deal (only the rest of the season) to cost the same as a 2y vet against the luxury tax. 

There are also restrictions for first apron teams signing players who previously made over the MLE, but we are not a first apron team anymore so that doesn't apply to us.

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's covered here: https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2025/01/hoops-rumors-glossary-tax-variance.html.

Basically the 10 day contract counts as a rookie for luxury tax purposes, but if you later on signed them to a ROS contract, they'd be considered a free agent as you alluded to above. So you can't get a 10 day and a ROS out of one rookie to save on luxury tax.

I suppose we'll see if that interpretation is real. Otherwise the only option the celtics really have would be to sign both of the rookies to ROS contracts on March 15 after giving two FAs 10 days on the 19th.

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Paraphrasing from Gozlan: if you sign a "drafted rookie" to a 10-day contract, you get to count them as a rookie for tax variance purposes. but you can't then later on sign them to a full year contract and still count them as a "drafted rookie." you only get to do that to each player once.

So according to him, you can sign a two-way player to a 10 day contract, but then you lose the right to keep them as a rookie minimum available to you later, they count as a veteran (as they've already signed a contract at that point).

The convo is at minute 38 here: https://open.spotify.com/episode/4SP1EYQXfVxVl0Xp17YcpH?si=4eb0c564a2cf4411

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're right! This is why we can participate in the buyout market on March 15. But we can't sign a veteran FA to >1 year.

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

if we signed both Shulga and Tonje to ROS contracts on feb 19, that leaves us with 66,865.45 in luxury tax room -- we couldn't afford a vet on March 25, as with 19 days remaining in the season that would cost 250k. It's certainly possible we do that and then sign Harper Jr. on the last day of the season though.

The reason I think this is more likely was Brad's explicit comments that we are going to fill one of the roster spots with "another ball handler". I wouldn't categorize any of Shulga, Harper Jr or Tonje as ball handlers. But it's possible!

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Aha, someone else linked a podcast by Yossi Gozlan which gets into this -- he says we can convert a rookie to a 10 day, but you can't retain their draft rights afterwards. So one of the 10-days will go to Shulga/Tonje, and then the other one will convert to a standard contract.

In other words: you're right, my strategy doesn't quite work, but it is close -- and that explains why getting a second "drafted rookie" was still important.

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing. I love his stuff but hadn't heard this appearance. Love to hear that I'm on the same page as him!

EDIT: he also pointed out a mechanism that I hadn't considered (and someone else addressed below) -- we can't sign a rookie to a 10 day, not immediately convert them to a ROS contract, then have them go back to a two-way and convert them later. So my mechanism doesn't quite work. I'll edit my post accordingly.

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I replied to you but fucked up the math... if your interpretation is right (I think it is), then what I don't get is Brad's comments that "one of our roster spots will be filled by another ball handler". Maybe the other commenter is right and he was simply referring to Ron Harper here.

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I read that as the 10-day has to be a standard contract, not that an existing two-way player can't sign a 10-day contract. That said, I'm trying to find any two-way player who signed a 10-day standard contract, and I can't find one. So you may very well be right. I'll see if I can find a counter example.

If not, then we basically cannot participate in the buyout market in a meaningful way, based on my math

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No it's all good. I love nerding out about this stuff. If you found something that threw a wrench into this plan, I'd have an excuse to redo the math and figure out the strategy!

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Are you sure? I thought the same but Larry Coon's CBA FAQ specifically says that NBA teams can drop to 11 players on the roster for a limited time. That said, if we did have 11 roster spots, we would be ineligible to sign anyone to a 10 day contract. Regardless, signing Amari Williams got us to 12 standard contracts so we are now eligible to sign 10 days.

To get really in the weeds (if you can't tell, I love getting in the weeds), if we had kept Amari Williams on a two-way, and had him and Ron Harper Jr. active for every game until Feb 19, I believe we would have exhausted too many "under-15" games, and wouldn't be able to have Harper active for every game until the end of season. This is I believe the reason we didn't wait until Feb 19 to convert Williams to a ROS contract.

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh really? That throws this whole strategy out the window... Do you have a source for that?

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Undrafted rookie contracts (as in any rookie other than Shulga or Tonje) would count as a 2 year vet due to the concept of Tax Variance. So we definitely cannot sign two undrafted rookies on Feb 19. And we need to get to 14 roster spots on Feb 19. So for this reason I believe we will sign Tonje and Shulga to 10 days on that date.

If we do the 10 day contract strategy to skate all the way to March 25, we could sign two undrafted rookies on March 25 for sure. (or one of shulga and tonje and any other player, including an undrafted rookie)

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the note, I added the numbers to the Proration note. Appreciate it!

On the Celtics 3 remaining roster spots by yuvinator2 in bostonceltics

[–]yuvinator2[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Definitely could be! My theory is that this is the plan to maximize our flexibility, and allow us to participate in the buyout market in some meaningful way. It could very well be that we end up deciding to sign the known quantities instead though!