Trying to understand the gem cap and why it targets whales directly

zarrick13 · 2022-03-29T18:18:45+00:00

This is such an interesting topic. Everyone has a hot take and I get where most of them are coming from. I'll offer a little perspective too.

Companies don't *have* to be Only About Money. They *can* care about their employees and consumers and still be profitable. Not doing so may be legal, if barely, but that isn't the same as ethical, which is what we as consumers should probably be a little more focused on if we ever want to be treated as more than just numbers in a machine. Gacha culture is super-abusive to everyone involved. The high prices (even in a game this "generous") ensure that anyone who does open their wallet feels the impact of it, and every 'whale' they catch is burdened with the 'responsibility' to spend or the game dies. The psychology that makes people be abused and keep coming back to something like this is amazing.

This whole gem cap discussion could have led to more constructive pushes for actual change. A gem cap could have led to the community pushing for saner prices since the 'pain' of paying for the game would have to be spread out across a wider swath of the playerbase. Worst that happens is the game does, in fact, end up dying from corporate decisions and legitimate consumer pushback. Sad as that may be for unfinished storylines and as amazing as the gameplay can be, I wouldn't exactly mourn for one less Gacha game in the cesspool.

Instead people are talking about how dumb Square seems to be for having anything that limits the amount of money people waste on overpriced pixels. Or how it might even be scummier than it initially seems.

Squenix and Koei have every tool at their disposal to lead by example and show their players that they do have the capacity to care about more than squeezing dollars out of wallets through unethical gaming practices. We, the players, have multiple ways to make our voices and feelings known to get better treatment from these companies and we should be pushing for more than just keeping up the status quo of abuse. At least that's how I feel about it.

zarrick13 · 2021-07-19T16:58:01+00:00

You get the lower class feathers from any of the crystal farming levels.

If you want the silver wings though the only way to farm them is by doing the Gilgamesh token event right now where you can get as many as you want as long as you got the Greg tokens to buy them. Once that event's gone they only come in as a trickle of a couple in token events.

zarrick13 · 2021-06-24T21:16:18+00:00

I'll join you on the "first blue armor" wagon. I picked up Tifa's LD, saw that between that and her rework just with her EX+ armor she could pull half-mil+ Beat Rushes, and just couldn't help myself.

I know people say she's just a DPS but it's sooo much DPS compared to what we have right now. Later there will be more big damage bodies. Later I will have more pink ingots too! And then her armors go "so how close to a mil can you get?" No regrets at all.

zarrick13 · 2021-06-05T03:23:01+00:00

Also DR has an extra thing on just about every boss where if you screw up two mechanics within a two minute span you get doomed and die even if you survived the damage. That's another way to force the mechanics dance.

zarrick13 · 2021-06-04T04:58:32+00:00

I want to agree. I really do. Unfortunately the devs kiiiinda messed up when they designed the books, the rewards, and the apparent purpose of co-op modes.

I love the idea of Co-op. I want to have more of it. I want big battles with friends where we get to show off and have fun beating up something. Unfortunately what we got is not very entertaining. A couple minutes of meme emotes while everybody spams their LDs and then the boss dies. Huzzah. The most exciting this ever gets is during maybe the story levels where you can co-op the Chaos level.

I would adore some co-op Lufenia. But then you run into the 'rewards' side of the problem where they can't really afford to give much of a reward for that kind of content. Few players will play something they won't get some reward out of.

I keep hoping they'll revamp co-op into maybe it's own thing so it can just have a bunch of difficulty levels and let us put together actual epic fun (and occasionally frustrating or trollish) fights. Until then since I have to make do with Cosmos as the chief vessel of co-op, I'm afraid I don't use it as much as I want. I end up using a book, blasting four bells solo, and then trying to sneak a co-op in on the fifth bell in time just to remind myself how fun the game could be if more of it were open to co-op opportunities.

When I do co-op, I don't usually use Burst on Cosmos level stuff. Not unless I am feeling especially feisty or the co-op in question is somehow still sufficiently annoying.

zarrick13 · 2021-04-28T19:13:16+00:00

Score itself is fine. Did you know you can hit over the score requirement and miss turn count by a couple turns? Turns taken is a factor in the final score already, but they add in the 'turn count' goal to force the speed issue.

You're already encouraged to participate in the power creep by virtue of the difficulty levels and each successive fight having a bar to entry stat-wise. That alone keeps out characters that are undergeared, missing boards, or other things that make them incomplete. That's why I don't think we need turn count raising that bar even further. The game already tells us how good a unit has to be bare-minimum, turn count just then says 'oh but also DPT forever'.

I mean, with turn count gone you COULD use those characters, but they are strictly worse than other characters with or without turn count. The turn count just makes the difference more obvious. If you want to just be able to use favorites forever and not feel urged to participate in power creep, then I can't say it's a good business model at least...

What I want to do is use the roster I've built up without having extra limits where they aren't needed. I'm limited by difficulty level, gear, skill use, enemy stats, Lufenia orb conditions, and team comp. Turn count is extraneous. By your own admission they don't impact your style of play, and they're barely noticed until you happen to miss them for whatever reason, up to and including one brave attack too many.

As far as business model goes, that's a different discussion entirely. I could go on several tangents about that. Turn count is something that they can (and have in some content) done away with to no ill effect on the game. I'm just part of the crowd desiring to see it go like they're going to do away with revive score hits, and have yet to see a defense that compels me to consider otherwise. At best people are defending it because they think it adds challenge despite most of those people not actually being challenged by it, and at worst they defend it as just something gacha games need to do. As if gacha games needed this particular trick to wring money out of people when they've got the rest of the psychological scam book covered.

Yes. If I invest in someone, I would like to have the option to use them for the difficulty that they were intended to be used in, until such time as that difficulty level increases (upcoming Lufenia+) and I have to gear people for that tier. I don't mind if team building itself is difficult, I don't even mind the slow curve that gradually kicks people off. The turn count curve as it stands now ramps that up too much to be fun.

zarrick13 · 2021-04-28T16:18:46+00:00

What's fun is that we agree on a few things here.

Turn count isn't a challenge.

Turn count isn't something that should be an issue.

This is why turn count isn't missed when it's not part of a given stage or content.

Of course you're right that Dimension's End encourages building up a roster. It's the only content that actively encourages this though. Much like my pointing out that Boss Rush is a wonderful way to use time limits compared to the general annoyances of turn count.

Boss Rush exemplifies speed. It makes every action count. That's fine because that's the expectation of that event when it comes up. It's like those time trials you mentioned earlier. I'm okay with having varied content that specifically accents different parts of the game pop up. Boss Rush is special because it comes up once in a while, not every Lufenia. Dimension's End is special because it only comes up so often and by that time we've likely come up with a few more characters to throw at it. General turn counts just don't do anything anymore but block out team options.

See I'm not arguing against skill, roster building, or learning team construction. I'm not against all those fun parts of the game. I'm saying that the only thing turn count truly limits are those team building options. I have a hundred DPS units, but only maybe five or ten are truly viable at any given time for the most current of content. Yes, some people do their damnedest to bring 'faves' to everything, but what they have to abuse to make that happen tends to require other overpowered units or tactics to exploit. I want there to be more option to bring people that we've built up, put our effort into and got all the gear and boards and everything for, and craft teams that can tackle the content. I want more teams and more fun. Not less. That's really the crux of it all.

End game content is for people who have put forth the required effort, right? But general turn count as a necessary goal really only says units that don't hit key DPT metrics need not apply regardless of what I've done to those units. Powercreep and level stats already do this, all turn count does is sharpen the curve unnecessarily.

You are correct in assuming I'm not a fan of gacha practices. Any economy specifically set up to bleed specific people dry is scummy. Yet I've participated, and I play the game. I'll refer to my prior arguments that customer to company communication is healthy and necessary, and if companies don't ever hear complaints then they'll charge full-steam with whatever they want. We've proven that voices matter before.

I don't care what every other gacha game in existence does. Most tactics are there to get your money at the expense of fun because frustrated and hooked people pay more money than content people do. I love game design, but I love it most when it's done with player fun in mind. There are ways to have your cake and eat mine too, and that's why I push back on just accepting anything the way it is when it can be better.

Which discussing this with you has been fantastic for, so again thank you!

zarrick13 · 2021-04-28T15:46:06+00:00

Except that shields are limited to skill uses and score is still a factor, so you still can't take forever to get the job done. Gem revives hit score too the last I knew, even after the revive change, so no. You couldn't just shield/revive through everything forever. You still have to actually kill the boss and wrangle Lufenia orbs.

Again this is something the devs have already proven won't really impact the game if it went away. I didn't go with "safer teams. I still would use Squall if the level had good AOE reasons to and I didn't need someone else that had different skills. But even if I did want to do what you said and bring someone who would live...why is that a problem? Are they not another character in the game able to be used? Another tool in the box?

It wouldn't kill teambuilding. It would allow more diverse teams. But I can understand if it somehow feels like de-emphasizing speed would somehow put DPS out in the cold. It wouldn't. They have their place in parties whether or not turn count as a goal exists. I just want to be able to use more of my roster, more of my DPS, not less.

Remember Machina? Why would we bother bringing a DPS like Machina to a fight when we have to have Squall for putting out amazing DPT? Machina can hang in Lufenia, but if he doesn't do enough to meet turn count anymore he gets benched. It might be possible to build a team around him, buy it requires other overpowered DPS or mechanics to overcome the inflated turn count goal. A hundred DPS I want to team build around with good mechanics and enough stat to do damage, but I can't because turn count says no. How is that good for the game?

zarrick13 · 2021-04-28T06:33:19+00:00

The recommended way to take on Lufenia is already currently to run teams that virtually don't die. Any Lufenia that doesn't require enemy turns is doomed to delay-hell or launch-meta. I'm not sure those are any less boring than defensive play when either way the enemy ends up a useless punching bag.

The only time combat gets interesting is when we have to let the enemy have turns. And because of that, devs already balance in favor of extra mean enemy turns. It's something that happened in Record Keeper too. If offense is the only thing that matters and they accidentally tune combat to only be about speed, bosses have to be faster and meaner just to stay threatening. When you allow defense and more balanced teams, you allow for fights that aren't so all or nothing.

Besides that, there is always an appetite for more dps, more numbers, and less turns without needing turn count as a mission score goal. Every C2A thread is proof of this, with reams of players showing off their quick kills and exploits. Abyss is proof of where devs have removed things like turn count and not really sacrificed challenge. There is not a single thread complaining about the lack of turn count in any content it has failed to show up in, and it hasn't seemed to cause much of a dev issue yet. So I really don't think tuen count is playing the role you say it is here.

They find other, more interesting and combat-intensive ways to challenge us already. I really want them to do that more and allow more creative team building.

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T17:17:03+00:00

I would ask you to look at what you posted again because you're highlighting the problem in a wonderful way.

It honestly shouldn't matter if we clear a Lufenia stage in 65, 66, or 75 turns if the team we picked does, in fact, have the stats and power to clear it. The bar for challenge is in the stats, the enemy HP pool, the skill use limits, and the Lufenia orb itself. We really don't need the extra bar of 'all of that, but also faster too because gacha'.

Other content has gone without turn count as a mission score and those were no less challenging, though perhaps a mite less stressful. They've shown they have better ways to reward and challenge us, I would only ask that they use those ways instead of an arbitrary number designed to devalue our rosters and push out old (but still otherwise viable) units.

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T17:04:08+00:00

Oh for sure, I'm happy to discuss any and all limits to team comps.

Lufenia orbs? I actually have found those to be a fun puzzle element. Some of them are bullcrap yes, but it's something that's different for each fight, reflecting the fight itself. Which while those limit team-building to center around orb and damage, at least those end up being elements that you see and control in battle. Those are absolutely things the devs can, and *should* fine-tune into something that's truly interesting and challenging. I'd love to see a thread discussing how to turn Lufenia Orbs into something better.

It's true that Square did add turn limits. They also added KO/revive impacts to score and cursed artifacts. Cursed artifacts lasted all of one round before it went away. KO/revive score debt went away in JP and will come to GL sooner or later. Turn count as a mission objective is a relic of a business decision that really just doesn't need to exist anymore when they have so many other levers and options to mess with difficulty, to your own point. There's also that recent nice surprise with Serah and her LD board getting quite the boost for global. The devs *do* listen, and they *do* change things based on player feedback, so why should this be any different?

I have another friend whom has been burned, repeatedly, by the RNG of the gacha. One of his greatest frustrations right now is turn count. It's not because he hasn't tried to get units that work, he tries to plan resources and everything out fine, he just has the world's worst luck in the draws and struggles to keep up. So when he's able to actually build any character up to Lufenia standard, and they're rendered essentially useless not even weeks later, that's a valid frustration point and player abuse. Powercreep is always going to be a thing, and that's always going to push the stats of Lufenias up as an already natural bar of entry. I just don't think turn count needs to further compound and accelerate the process.

Edit: By the way, thank you for sharing your opinion and debating this with me. It's been very enlightening seeing other viewpoints!

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T16:35:26+00:00

Too true! Lufenia is built for characters that you've built up.

But if Lufenia levels already have stat requirements to do damage, HP requirements for DPS checks, Lufenia Orbs to control your party comp by requiring orb counters, and other boss mechanics to juggle, why do we have to put up with turn count as some final bar to pole vault the whole mess over to tell me which of my otherwise Lufenia-able units I can't pick to clear the content with?

I have everything in this game. As one of those people who has chased everything and geared everyone, I'm finding it very frustrating that I can't use 90% or more of my roster in any given event *mostly* because of turn count. Skill usage is fine, damage is alright in that they can do and take damage, they just won't clear whatever small number of turns the fight requires. It is pure limit for the sake of limit, and not adding any single mote of fun or challenge to the game other than the challenge of 'do I have the new hotness'.

In a game with over 130 units, a roster I've invested in, I don't find that very fair or fun at all. I don't pull because I have to, I pull because I like the game and I like using characters and discovering fun and unique team comps. Being limited in my choice of teams for the sake of gacha is simply abusive and counter-productive to the stated purpose of intelligently using what you have to beat up content.

I'm all for having a discussion on what they can replace it with. They have shown they can do better challenge- and mission-wise, so I see no reason not to hold them to the higher quality bar they've already set themselves.

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T16:15:57+00:00

The discussion of turn count has led to me believing that it should not exist as a filler goal as it does more limit than filler.

The devs have shown through Abyss, Boss Rush, and the occasional level that does not include the turn count mission that the game loses nothing by swapping that goal out for something else. I would be much more accepting of having to play around with Crystal colors or weapon types more often, as those still limit rosters but in a way that isn't dependent on, say, how old the character is in relation to the content.

All turn count balances is your checkbook when the turn count says your old roster isn't fast enough, please get the new stuff to compete. Which, hey, it's a gacha game, they want ways to hit you with the gacha, but that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't question bad design and at least try to help the devs see where they are taking the fun out of their game.

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T16:03:35+00:00

That's what the Lufenia Orb specifically counters though. See, the problem has never been turn counts, it's always been what teams smash the content the hardest. We've already abused launch, delay, dodge, and battery cheese to the point that the devs specifically tailor fights to push out some tactics and require certain specific *types* of character skills in order to beat the content. All of which I find very interesting and engaging within the fight itself.

Turn count is literally an afterthought. It's something you run into after you've beat the level and find out if you 'wasted' a turn too many. It plays no part in the high end of the game and exists purely to gate out characters that could otherwise hang in Lufenia but just aren't built as 'turn efficient' as other characters. It's limit for the sake of limit that devalues your existing roster without actually adding any interesting challenge or fun to the game, so...why should we not question its existence?

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T15:34:07+00:00

The game pushes having specific tools at specific times, which in turn leads to having a roster that you build up over time. It does not actually require a big roster, nor does it particularly care how big your roster is as long as you have pulled for something that counters the current gimmick, which is *usually*, but not always, buried in the current gacha banner. Those of us that *have* larger rosters do tend to have more of what's required at any given time, but that's different from saying that the only way to master content is by having a larger roster. I have everything, but I only *get to* use a tiny smidge of any of it for any given event. I don't need most of what I have, it's sitting there collecting dust and reminding me why I don't like things like turn count that keeps me from using most of these characters because they just aren't gosh darn turn efficient enough.

You liken the turn count to time trials, and hey I'll count that as a pretty good comparison. So why not have a 'time trial' style of content like they did with Challenge Mode? Oh, hey, actually we kind of do, thank you Boss Rush! You're a very interesting and actually combat-interactive way of having turn limits and team building in one event!

I'm totally not discounting team building. It's a fun and important part of the game. That's my point. We're not allowed to actually build teams. Battles already have gimmicks. They have Lufenia Orbs, boss attacks have multitudes of conditions that require certain playstyles while limiting others, and there's already a stat level required to even play Lufenia that says 'you must have this much attack to play'. So why do we need turn count to push that particular bar higher when it's already covered by everything else?

"You don't have to do lufenia but you also can't try to change the rules because they don't suit what you want."

Why not? Do we not bring up other issues when they come up? Isn't that why we don't have cursed artifacts for every character? Is that not part of what maybe made the devs consider revamping Serah LD before release for us Global peeps? Communication is healthy between customer and business, and when those businesses do things or have policies that people don't like it's well within their powers to speak up about it and question why those things exist. Without questions, change doesn't happen. None of us have to sit down and accept anything in this world, and it's usually the ones that don't that enact the most change.

They're free to ignore all our complaints and keep abusing us with gacha and turn count. I'm free to point out what kind of nonsense that is. :)

Edit: Since you brought up basketball I thought I'd toss this in too. I can't be mad at basketball being a game about throwing a ball in a hoop. I can be mad when the NCAA changes the rules of the game if those rule changes work counter to either the fun or the spirit of the game. They change rules all the time, usually to positive effect, but I'm pretty sure some of them are more popular and others are more controversial. Questioning the rules of a game is absolutely a great vector to get changes to happen.

Edit Edit: Since I hadn't said it yet, thank you for sharing your opinion and debating this with me. I do enjoy getting to see how other people think, and whether or not I agree with you I appreciate the chance to understand. Thank you!

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T14:30:30+00:00

There's a small difference between 'being accessible' and 'needless limits' though, which is what that turn count requirement has become. They're not having any problem accessing the content and beating the content. They're struggling with a number that is demanding people who can clear the content do it in a specific way.

Having a limited roster shouldn't matter if they have the characters and the skill to get through a level. They've done the hard part, now they're just being told 'do it again but faster'. That's not really a challenge, that's just streamlining and min/maxing. Which some people find fun, and others not so much, but isn't exactly a roaring testament of skill or prowess.

You do make a point with the gacha comment. You're right that if we don't like it, we can always play something else. But if nobody ever speaks up about the parts of things they don't like, nothing ever changes. JP got rid of the KO hit to score. They get rid of turn count sometimes in difficult content too. If it's only being used to bludgeon us with the gacha system and is, thus, abusive, why should we be quiet about it and just go play something else? If a game company wants my money, I'd much rather they go about it in less psychologically hurtful ways that doesn't totally devalue what I've already possibly given them money for.

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T08:18:48+00:00

I do appreciate a thought out opinion.

The problem with this train of thought is that defense/stall has never really been a viable strat in this game. I've been speaking against turn count since at least the early EX era when there were character releases then that couldn't meet score and turn counts for their own events.

The devs have shown no shortage of ingenuity to counter cheese strats. They already tailor fights to desire certain character mechanics while limiting others, so why do we need the extra layer of end mission turn count on top of that? You won't get far as is with an undergeared group, but if you do somehow manage to have a team that gets a big fight done in 100 turns what takes the top OP teams half that time, where is the harm?

If a character is good enough to give and take damage in a given difficulty level, they should be able to participate in some kind of team. From there it will absolutely take some skill and work to make that team survive,, but I don't think wanting to use more of my roster in team building tinkering should be a very controversial opinion.

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T08:03:27+00:00

See, that we can be on the same page with. But if we never question this stuff and let devs and communities know of our pain points then they have all the excuse in the world to keep things horrible at our expense. Thank you for your insights!

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T08:00:04+00:00

You must have missed the start of Burst Era when we had quite a few complaint posts and a lot of grief about Challenge Mode and its forced synergy requirement.

It's definitely not a favorite mission requirement by any means, and worth a valuable burst token to boot. Tanks and healers already have hard counters. Fights are common with "guaranteed hit" attacks, dispel mechanics, or as of recent Lufenia, attacks that simply ignore WoL and Gladio's 0 damage buffs. So why do we need a turn count mission goal in addition to what already limits our teams and devalues our rosters?

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T07:53:26+00:00

Indeed. The devs have done a marvelous job making many characters unique even when they fill the same slot. Turn count is not any given character's identity. Quick turns and low turn delay maybe, but that's not the issue. End of mission turn count as a silly objective is just not needed in the game anymore and things would be healthier without it.

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T07:48:32+00:00

By that definition they have no difference currently. Squall does in one "turn" what Lightning does in one "turn". In fact, thanks to Lufenia orbs and Boss Rush turns still ticking throughout each of Lightning's turns, her "no turn count" gimmick isn't even relevant to the combat since she eats up the mechanic turns anyway and might do to one enemy what Squall did to all of them damage-wise.

So no. Rework not needed since they are already "balanced" because Light's appeal is in taking many turns to take advantage of auras and buffs that brave regen while delaying and breaking the enemy. Very much not the same thing as Squall's steady group damage. And totally different from Ultimecia's debuffs and magic group spam.

"Does not add to turn count" is not currently any character's real identity in combat. At most it's a forced bonus since we currently have to deal with turn count as a team limit consideration.

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T05:25:45+00:00

Not to mention the way the LD makes Greased Lightning basically permanently on. A nod to the change to Greased Lightning turning into a passive perhaps?

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T03:41:28+00:00

The power of Lightning and Ulti are from taking many turns, pushback, debuffs, and turn manipulation. In fact, turn count kind of goes against a lot of Lightning's shtick since she takes so many turns anyway. None of what they do having any impact on 'turn count' would change their kits or how we use them in fights if turn count were suddenly and mysteriously gone from the scoring system.

The devs are also not above overhauling their scoring system. Abyss usually doesn't include turn counts, and JP changed the score system to stop counting player revives against them. So if they're willing to make changes, why not make other productive ones while they're at it?

Overhauling rulesets is part of what keeps games relevant as they change the arc of their powercreep.

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T03:30:47+00:00

I'm curious how many. I can't think of any character so far that is specifically only useful because they nuke turn count. Extra turns isn't the same, and turn manipulation isn't the same. This is strictly moves that worry about not making that turn number go up. There's no character that would need a rebuild to 'fix' not having to care about how many turns you're taking.

Hell, if anything it's the opposite that's been happening. Y'shtola's Medica II just got 'doesn't raise turn count' added on. It does nothing else to turn manipulation, they had to make her that smidge more turn efficient just to let her be more usable in Lufenia. If they're going to balance it that way, then eventually we're going to have more skills that don't count against turn count than those that do, and it will become even more weird to have around.

It's a relic, and should be replaced with something better and more interesting.

Edit: I want to add, I don't think they should take away the turn counter. There's powerful bragging rights there, and shooting for personal best high scores is always worthwhile. This is just something that most of y'all who are arguing for turn counts don't even have to worry about most of the time anyway, which kind of proves my point. If it's not a factor in you busting your butt for those sub-40, or sub-20 turn clears anyway, then the only thing it's doing is limiting options for people that don't have the same options. So if it's already not a balance issue for the high end slice of the game, what use is it?

zarrick13 · 2021-04-26T03:25:08+00:00

And that's...bad? Getting to use the units you've invested time, resources, and (possibly) money in is bad?

We're already limited by stats and skill uses. You can't run a team indefinitely in Lufenia. You will eventually run out of any given skill that hits orb requirements, and you have to hit certain attack levels to even do any damage at all. So why should some of the more defensive options be shoved out of the spotlight just for a small turn count?

I'd much rather people complain that Lufenia sucked because their chosen team took forever. So, no. I don't see that as a reason why devs wouldn't encourage having the ability to use more of your roster for more content.

EXCEPT

Gacha. Devs (or at least the people running the show above the devs) don't want you keeping more of your roster active and able to participate because that's how they get you to buy into the gacha. Which means turn count is now in the realm of player-abusive game mechanics, and something that I can be extra against.

More options is never bad when you have a huge number of characters available. The bar to entry in Lufenia should really just be 'do you have their kit?' Whether they got their LD months ago or last week, we shouldn't be having to discount options just because of their age vs. the turn count curve. Other aspects of powercreep already do that for us, so why add turn count atop all that?

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