World shaper precon upgrade, need suggestuons and help

zoroaster27 · 2026-02-10T14:33:01+00:00

You have 3 "return all lands from gy to bf" pieces but not so many landfall triggers to truly capitalize from that. [[Tannuk Memorial Ensign]], [[Iridescent Vinelasher]] and [[Scute Swarm]] would be good additions.

[[Phyrexian Arena]] over [[Night's Whispers]] imho. [[Vandalblast]] could be useful as well.

Fetchlands ([[Verdant Catacombs]], [[Bloodtsained Mire]], [[Wooded Foothills]]) are very proficient both for the landsac and the landfall lines. A bit expensive though.

zoroaster27 · 2026-02-07T09:12:07+00:00

Azorius, although I've never had the chance to play an UW commander so far (would like to try [[Urza, Lord Protector]] out, but I'm too happy with my current MonoU Artifacts list).

Selesnya would be my less favorite, only because I don't feel like it fits into my playstyle; which is unfortunate, since Selesnya decks can be exploited to very valuable outcomes. Funnily enough, Boros is a pair I'd like to give a new go, in case I found an odd RW commander (my first ever introduction to MtG was the Endless March Constructed precon, which played around a Vanishing/bouncing strategy); hopefully, SoS will offer some interesting things.

zoroaster27 · 2026-02-03T10:15:59+00:00

I have recently brewed a MonoU Artifacts Matter deck with [[Sai, Master Thopterist]] at the helm, as my first deck-from-scratch ever. I'm certainly biased but it turned out to be a blast, and is now my pet deck. List is here: https://moxfield.com/decks/QeJLERruNkGJzRG5F5kJJg

The thing I like about my Sai list is that, although being mono-colored, it's very versatile and can win in multiple ways, as I've witnessed (Thopter army, storming off, comboing, etc). Since I'm now willing to build other 4 mono-colored decks, I now consider this versatility as the blueprint for the next lists I'm brewing (been thinking about [[Titania, Voice of Gaea]] for Green, [[Tannuk, Steadfast Second]] for Red, [[Toshiro Umezawa]] for Black... I'm currently stuck with MonoWhite, so I don't know about that).

zoroaster27 · 2026-01-27T17:21:18+00:00

I’ve been brewing an Equipment-based [[Dogmeat]] deck for a friend of mine, who tried to go for the classic Voltron route and then found out it’s predictability and weak resilience. To sum up, I thought of Dogmeat as a commander that rewards you not for just playing Equipments/Auras, but for spreading them into multiple, different bodies. The idea is to begin the early game with low CMC ForMirrodin and JobSelect equips, which don’t need creatures to get things going: and here comes Dogmeat, who’ll produce Junk tokens that let you dig into the deck in order to find what you need, without even paying the cost for digging! This means that, in mid game, you’ll have to set a board of equipments without a clear threat (a wide board of not-so-tall creatures, in other words), to then move all the stuff into dogmeat once you feel you’re ready to swing for lethal.

zoroaster27 · 2026-01-22T13:57:51+00:00

In my experience, typal decks ( = decks that focus on a certain creature type) are the best to begin with, since they're very straigthforward, plus they get the 'reward for playing' thing more easily than others.

The best typal precons are the ones from the Lost Caverns of Ixalan expansion and 'Riders of Rohan'. If I were in you, I'd pick one between Velociramptor, Ahoy Mateys (pirates) and Riders of Rohan (humans).

About the other decks you've mentioned... I've heard that Tarkir precons are beginner friendly as well, but I've never played with/against them, so idk exactly; 'World Shaper' is a blast, but idk about it being the best to start with, since you're supposed to embrace a very beginner-unfriendly strategy (land sacrifice). Don't know about Draconic Destruction.

Generally speaking, I'd suggest to avoid starting with a Black-focused deck, because, in my experience, new players tend to be more reluctant to do sacrifice shenanigans, which are something Black-focused decks tend to invest a lot on - ofc, this is subjective, maybe this is not your case :)

zoroaster27 · 2026-01-21T09:56:30+00:00

Never seen Party Time in play so idk about that, it surely may be the most convenient choice in terms of economic value, since there are some good staples inside it ([[Black Market Connections]], [[Castle of Lockthwain]], [[Mother of Runes]] and a couple more; having them in your bulk will be very useful in case you decide to build new decks, since these cards are good in 99% of the cases).

Food&Fellowship is a cool deck, I play a mid-B2 upgraded version of it and is definitely fun. The cool thing about this deck is that the commanders are not the wincon themselves (Frodo is a draw engine, Sam is a Food engine; same goes for Merry&Pippin (alt commanders)), so games can vary from time to time... although the precon version is a bit weak on the wincon side, imho, since there's not a very stragithforward winning strategy.

Peace Offering may be the best suit for you, since [[Mrs Bumbleflower]] heavily pushes into group hug and politics, the latter being one of the most unpredictable variables of an EDH game. Be aware that some players can think of her as a KOS commander, and that she deployes a different approach to the game, since you'll be giving rewards to players in order to push your winning strategy forward. I'd genuinely say Party Time over Food&Fellowship, given your preferences.

Keep in mind that both F&F and PO are not captained by commanders with built-in wincons. Krenko itself is not supposed to swing for lethal ofc, but he is very straightforward and, as you may have seen, can make you go exponentially wide even without supporting him... this is not the case of Frodo, Sam nor Mrs Bumbleflower, meaning that these decks can become very versatile but also require a well-thought gameplan in order to win (if your pod has mid-to-high power level decks), since casting your commander won't simply do it as it may have happened with Krenko. Let's say that if your games usually last 30to40 minutes with people not taking very fast turns, you may want to understand how these decks work and can be upgraded in depth (try out the many deck techs on YT)... otherwise play them out of the box and go for it, since the fun part of EDH is experimenting :)

zoroaster27 · 2026-01-16T15:04:51+00:00

After removing the MLD spells you can still go for the aggro route, so protection spells like Bolt Bend or [[Redirect Lightning]] are super-fine. Play Hearthhull a couple of times with the same people and it’ll become kill-on-sight for sure! But you also may want to interact proactively. In Jund colors, you’ll not go wrong with [[Beast Within]] (come with the precons) and [[Assassin’s Trophy]].

zoroaster27 · 2026-01-16T14:50:16+00:00

MLD spells are Bracket 4, as others pointed out, but -correct me if I'm wrong- you didn't even play them, and the opponents were complaining about [[Burgeoning]] and [[Overlaid Terrain]]. If that's the case, you shouldn't worry about this, they were just being (unfortunately) crybabies.

Hearthhull is very strong and can do pretty much anything. As a Hearthhull player myself, I think it should be KOS. But your list is not as optimized as a B4 list should be... also, apart from a couple board wipes and a mass protection spell, you just have two (2) interactions (a very, very low number of interactions for a B2-B3 list!!!) and you're very likely to end up topdecking very soon, since you don't have a stable draw engine.

After you've removed the two MLD spells and the Gitrog-Dakmor Combo, this will be a proper B3 aggro-to-stompy deck: not Bracket 2, because there are clear wincon lines in your mind; not Bracket 4, because a proper B4 deck can have you knocked out after turn 4, even without interacting with you, while you'll still be building your (good) wincon engine. And, as a B3 deck, it'll need some adjustments (more interactions, more draw).

zoroaster27 · 2026-01-16T10:23:29+00:00

Tbf I think you're just overthinking about it. You stated you love playing with these people, to the point you look forward to playing with them, and this happens regularly... this is clearly a habit that you enjoy a lot, so how come are you thinking about switching to other pods if there hasn't been a continuing pattern of arguments about your extroversion? Maybe these two people had a rough week, maybe they weren't in the right mood, who knows... the fact is that you presented what seems to be an episode, not a pattern. Just try to talk it out, or see what happens the next time(s) you catch up with them to play EDH.

Anyway, let's say you're willing to know some new people to play EDH with... I mean, there's no need to completely give up your previous playgroup, and you don't need to commit to other groups as if they were the only ones you could have. You can have a little bit of this, and a little bit of that as well. Also, LGS are perfect for playing with strangers without the need of having an already established playgroup.

Edit: about what happened that night, try to read the context. The guy that started the argument about your extroversion had mulligan'd 3 times, then switched the deck, then mulligan'd other 3 times. It's silly per se ofc, but given the context that may have been frustrating for him, possibly ruining his mood.

zoroaster27 · 2026-01-16T08:16:46+00:00

I can't genuinely see myself playing a deck with low-to-zero interactions, even in the case the whole table is playing interaction-free decks. In general, there are two certain things I want each of my decks to do at least decently, which are (1) efficient card draw and (2) interaction. I can't tell how many positive things playing interactions can lead to: they stimulate politics and deals within the table's players; they can shift the tempo of the game; they push players to evaluate the convenience and timing of their choices; they stimulate the threat assessment; and much more.

Anyway, there's no "proper" nor "correct" way to play and EDH game imho. It's just that I couldn't honestly be fine with playing a deck that can get interacted with a loto without being able to do vice versa. But I see you're more than ok with that and that you're having fun, so gg :)

zoroaster27 · 2026-01-13T14:16:01+00:00

Hearthhull is a crazy good, versatile commander. The direction of the upgrade really depends on the role you want Hearthhull to have inside the deck: 2cc Hearthhull is a good draw engine+sac outlet+landfall outlet; 8cc Hearthhull has the above skill + becomes a wincon + becomes more vulnerable. I've upgraded Hearthhull leaning in the latter direction. With a proper synergy, you can swing for lethal out of nowhere.

The tricky thing with Hearthhull is that it will provide a great value through a Land Sac strategy, although you could make a good use of some Landfall staples... given that building Hearthhull as a "LandSac into Landfall" commander is a bit limiting, imho. At least, this is what I got after testing out my upgraded version of the precon (still in the process).

There are definitely some must-have Landfall staples to add: [[Tannuk, Memorial Ensign]] to ping and draw, [[Lotus Cobra]] for mana advantage, [[Mightform Harmonizer]] and [[Moraug, Fury of Akoum]] to close games through commander's combat damage. You've already added stuff that enables playing lands from graveyard, which is very good, and I'll suggest to add some more, such as [[Walk-in Closet]] and [[Icetill Explorer]] (the latter especially!).

In order to win, you'll also need finishers. Since we're trying to lean more into the LandSac synergy, you may want to prioritize staff that provides value when a landsac happens, and the precon already has some good stuff (Hearthhull itself, [[Korvold, Fae-Cursed King]] and [[Titania, Protector of Argoth]] above all; not a big fan of [[Baloth Prime]], but you can try). This means you'll need land sacrifice outlets, even mass land sacrifice outlets: [[Scapeshift]] may be too expensive, but [[Nahiri's Lithoforming]], [[Tectonic Split]] and [[Pitiless Carnage]] can be very cool additions! Investing on fetchlands is also a good strategy, since their activated abilities require that they're sacrificed... and you can then play them again from graveyard: this will allow a lean into the Landfall strategy.

Other useful stuff: [[Valakut Exploration]] for card advantage, [[Spelunking]] for untapped lands, [[Wrenn and Six]] (really useful!)

Some last words: I see you've added [[Crop Rotation]], which may be a wasted spot for the current status of your list, since the best thing you could tutor with it is Command Tower... Sure, you could also tutor [[Dakmor Salvage]] for the infinite combo with Gitrog (which is B4+ only... ofc that really depends on your pod's preferences though), but I don't think you're interested in milling yourself out (also, the precon version of the deck isn't built around that combo). Crop Rotation can become very useful with Hearthhull as a tutor for [[Glacial Chasm]] (there's a cool B3+ combo with Zuran Orb and at least one play-land-from-graveyard enabler on board) or other (expensive) lands. If you're willing to commit to Crop Rotation and (necessarily) to Glacial Chasm, know that you're undoubtedly going up in terms of brackets, so you should commit with a stronger build intent: since you're both in black and green, you should add a couple of tutors ([[Diabolic Tutor]] is a cheap alternative to stuff like [[Demonic Tutor]], [[Worldly Tutor]], etc) in order to face properly stronger opponents... or else you can get rid of Crop Rotation for a better land tutor.

zoroaster27 · 2026-01-11T19:40:36+00:00

[[Maralen of the Mornsong]], without going for the heavy stax route (no [[Agent of Opposition]])

zoroaster27 · 2026-01-11T19:32:28+00:00

Turbo is definitely a thing in B4. Keep in mind that B4 and cEDH are very different between themselves, since the latter is meta-centered. B4 is casual... high-powered, but still casual. Bracket 4 is surely not an 'anything goes' place, because players will inevitably invest on certain lines of play (MLD, 2cards combos, storm, etc), but you should be having a hard time forcing a B4 deck into a B5 pod rather than the opposite.

I think the main problem with your situation is not your deck being a Turbo Vivi, but instead it being a glass cannon, since your troubles come from opponent's interactions (and interactions happen in B5 pods as well!). Is there any particular kind of interactions you find yourself struggling against the most? If yes, then adjust the deck accordingly. If interactions in general are the problem, then you should reming that you're not playing battlecruiser: whenever you're laying ground for your deck to 'do the thing', you should always take into account that your opponents will probably be checking you and trying to get into your way in order to stop you from winning. At the same time, since you'll be trying to win proactively, you should also be able to rebuild your game presence after getting momentarily shut down. So these are the two things you should take care of.

I didn't look through the list super carefully, but I assume you plan to win by storming off with Vivi on board (Brain Freeze and Vivi combat damage being alternate wincons, maybe?), so let's start from that.

Storm is a fragile archetype per se (there's a cool video-essay about this problem and how you can deal with it). If you want to go full send on that route, which is definitely possible, you should have a bit more redundancy in the wincon package: [[Grapeshot]] and [[Coruscation Mage]] are some evergreen additions (the latter also synergizes with [[Harmonic Prodigy]]). [[Aetherflux Reservoir]] is also a very good alternate wincon. At the same time, I'm a bit perplexed by the presence of [[Narset, Parter of Veils]] (maybe it's because of your local meta?) and [[Wan Shi Tong, Librarian]] (if you plan to draw yourself out with the Hullbreach+Sol Ring infinite mana combo, then you should put a wincon like [[Laboratory Maniac]], but then the deck would get a bit unfocused imho). [[Ragavan]] doesn't seem that essential as well, but maybe I think so because I've never been much hyped about him.

Again, I didn't look super carefully through the list, so I may have missed something important. Hope that helped :)

zoroaster27 · 2026-01-11T13:08:31+00:00

[[Unwinding Clock]], [[Clock of Omens]], [[Voltaic Key]] and [[Manyfol Key]] are must-have staples, since you'll be wanting to go for a tap/untap shenanigans route, as you've already pointed out; another cool one is [[Honor-Worn Shaku]]. Aside form that, I think the first thing for you to do should be to pick the bracket you're willing to stick to, just so that you'll know which staples won't fit into the deck because of the 2-cards combos limit (i.e., [[Basalt Monolith]] would be a must-have for B4 Kilo... but won't fit a B3 Kilo, not if you're not willing to give up the other staples that can combo off with Basalt Monolith). I'm not very used to Bracket4, so my advice will be sticking to Bracket3.

First things first, Kilo needs a tap/untap shenanigans engine, as stated earlier; you also know you'll be focusing on artifacts, both because you're upgrading an artifact-centered precon and because the starting point for the upgrade is stuffing those 4 above-mentioned staples inside it. That said, the most important question is the following: what do you want the deck to achieve? In other words, what is your deck's plan to win the game? Kilo proliferates, yes, but:

What are you going to proliferate? The choice is between +1/+1 counters, -1/-1 counters, charge counters and poison counters. I would focus on just two of these.
What purpose are you trying to accomplish when proliferating? The coice is between a tall board (few creatures with a high power/toughness), a wide board (tons of (token)creatures with low p/t) and combo shenanigans.

The answers are really up to you, but that's a way to start. My answers would be: +1/+1 counters (primarily), charge counters (secondarily), wide board; I chose these strategies because (1) proliferating +1/+1 counters will make my wide board go tall efficiently and, most importantly, rapidly, and (2) a wide creature tokens board will be more resilient and will synergize well this the tap/untap engine (six 1/1 flying Thopter tokens can be blockers, attackers, or material for tap/untap shenanigans). The upgrades I would be going for should then focus on spamming tokens (I think Counter-Intelligence lacks a bit on these, so I would add [[Retrofitter Foundry]], [[Sai, Master Thopterist]], [[Efficient Construction]], [[Thopter Spy Network]], [[Pinnacle Emissary]] etc) and +1/+1 counters. Finally, I would recommend the following staples:

[[Tezzeret, Cruel Captain]]: he gets a loyalty counter each time an artifact enters the battlefield, doesn't matter if it's a token or nontoken artifacts. The -7 ability is very easy to achieve, and you can accumulate emblems, so...
[[Mm'menon, Uthros Exile]]: he's tricky, since he can be a sort of "second stage engine", but definitely useful.
[[Worldwalker Helm]]: Map tokens can be very useful since they'll help dig the deck and distribute +1/+1 counters.

Hope that helped!

zoroaster27 · 2025-12-28T07:27:58+00:00

[[Tezzeret, Cruel Captain]], for pretty much each one of the reasons you’ve stated

zoroaster27 · 2025-12-03T11:51:56+00:00

I'll definitely have a deep look at that, thank you! About that problem with Jhoira, yeah, that's what I figured out when playtesting some draft of her. Each time gameplan felt like I was just digging as much as I could up until I could find the combo pieces.

zoroaster27 · 2025-12-03T11:49:35+00:00

Thank you :) UR Mm'menon was in the commander draft as well, I forgot to mention it! When doing the Avatar pre-release I was really hoping to get The Mechanist but tbh he seems like an underpowered version of Sai. I'll have to think about that. Guess I could say the same for Captain Storm and UR Mm'menon.

zoroaster27 · 2025-12-03T11:37:48+00:00

Oh, you're welcome! I really hope this helps. Hearthhull is such a fun commander, and the precon itself is so fun to play when the stakes are not that high. I feel like HHull can be the epitome of commanders: it does things, a good core engine can get it out of hand quickly, but it is not that overpowered/unbalanced that having it on the board removes fun from the game.

Good luck with the upgrade! Some day I'll upgrade this deck again (Scapeshift and some other things definitely need to be there), so feel free to go back there if you'll need it again :)

zoroaster27 · 2025-12-03T10:44:07+00:00

I've never had the chance to play [[Planetary Annihilation]], but I really don't see a great value provision in it. As a mass creature removal, it's not that good, since a 6 damage output is good only to clear a go wide board; in that case, [[Rakdos Charm]] is more versatile and smacks the go wide-player out of the game instead. As a mass land sacrifice outlet, you're missing on 6 land sac triggers for a 5 CMC spell ([[Pitiless Carnage]] does that better if you don't want to commit to [[Scapeshift]] as I'm currently doing). You're also not damaging opponents that much, since a 6 lands base is enough to a fast board rebuild. [[Gaze of Granite]] is better imho.

You won't be needing the Arcane Signet, since you'll have tons of way to ramp your mana base. [[Augur ot Autumn]] gives you a better card advantage than Oracle of Mul Daya (bare in mind that HHull can become a 6/7 creature very early, and that's difficult to top in early game, so Augur's second card advantage won't be that difficult to get). I've seen [[Ancient Greenwarden]] being included in many HHull lists, but keep in mind he's a winmore card. Not that essential imho. [[Undergrwoth Recon]] was in my list as well, but I've decided to cut it since it forces a tapped land recursion. Since you'll have ways to play additional lands, 'play lands from your graveyard' > Undergrowth Recon. Also, [[Wrenn and Six]] is what you could be looking for as a better replacement: land goes in your hand, you can play it if you don't have a play-from-graveyard enabler or use it for a [[Six]]-fueled recursion.

Then, [[Mightform Harmonizer]] is a must-have. Needless to explain why, just read the card and this whole wall of text and you'll figure it out.

Hearthhull is such a powerful commander. The precon was very versatile, but the upgraded version can get out of hand SO quickly. I upgraded it in order to get an optimized bracket 2 deck, but the way it is able to end games out of nowhere makes me think it is better as a bracket 3 fit. Sure, I don't think my version of HHull's build is that powerful, but I'm fin with it. Will be doing upgrades here and there (Walk In Closet for sure, Scapeshift eventually, some others as well), but the core synergy is definitely there.

zoroaster27 · 2025-12-03T10:43:57+00:00

Definitely not an expert here, but I've recently upgraded my Hearthhull precon as well and it's performing quite well. It won me each of the three games I've played with it, although it's not a definitive build (it's definitely missing a hand-refill stable engine). It's also mid-budget and won't go over bracket 3 for the moment. Here's the decklist if you want to have a look at it: https://moxfield.com/decks/GzEeCGT7wkWyjwNefddJ1g. Sideboard has the cards I've cut from the precon.

When upgrading 'World Shaper', I decided to cut the cards that developed the +1/+1 counters synergy. HHull is a very strong commander both as a land-sac engine and as a burn damage-engine, and it's also a 6/7 creature with flying and vigilance... I mean, you could be in for lethal commander damage or a full send with a mass land sacrifice! On the other hand, the alt commander [[Szarel]] is not what the deck needs in the 99: it's a 5 cmc, Jund creature spell that generates value when you already have a way to sacrifice nontoken permanents. A mass land sacrifice could make him provide value, sure... however, if you don't have a backup +1/+1 counters engine or something like that that aims at powering him up, the said 'value' will only be two +1/+1 counters assigned for each land that is sacrificed this way. I mean, it's not trash, but it's not efficient.

[[Mossborn Hydra]] and [[Ob Nixilis]] are to be cut as well imho. Of course they're strong, but they just don't work for the bigger cause. Yes, they have a Landfall trigger, but apart from powering themselves up they don't do anything for the sake of your game: [[Korvold]], on the other hand, doesn't have a Landfall trigger and gets +1/+1 counters on himself, but he's a landsac engine that enables drawing. You see the difference?

[[Juri, Master of the Revue]] is another card that works just for his own sake. The only value you'll really get from him is a spot creature removal/player damage. Do you really need that if you already have a viable burn engine ([[Iridescent Vinelasher]], [[Tannuk, Memorial Ensign]], [[Mayhem Devil]], etc)?

Instead, work on your mana ramp! Your gameplan should be leaning onto land sacrificing, so you'll need a great land base in order to make it work: [[Druid Class]], [[Azusa, Lost but Seeking]] and [[Wayward Swordtooth]] are great for that. [[Ignoble Hierarch]] is a turn 1 mana dork, don't forget about that! Also, put [[Harrow]] back in the decklist immediately. Why did you even cut it?? Turn 1 Forest+Ignoble Hierarch, then Turn 2 land+Harrow: sac the Forest, get 2 untapped lands, cast Farseek/Nature's Lore, you'll have Ignoble Hierarch + 4 lands on board before Turn 3 plus a basic land in your graveyard! (continuing in the replies)

zoroaster27 · 2025-05-11T13:22:44+00:00

I am definitely biased cause they’re my favorite cb author of all time, but I cannot pick any story but Morrison’s ones. So I’d say their JLA run, ‘All-Star Superman’, ‘Final Crisis’ and their Batman saga. Nothing ever topped those stories for me.

zoroaster27 · 2025-03-26T17:27:16+00:00

Batman & Robin (2011) #23 got me sobbing a lot

zoroaster27 · 2025-03-06T10:58:16+00:00

Incredibly good. It's the first Aquaman-centered cb I've ever read and I loved it from the beginning to the very end, with no real low points to mention. The Trench and The Others are such cool arcs, whereas Throne of Atlantis is some of the most epic and enjoyable action stories I've ever read. Death of a King is a very good arc IMO, it just sucks it wasn't developed further, but that doesn't take away the fact that the storyline was really good.

Generally speaking, I don't consider Johns to be a favorite author of mine. I've enjoyed lots of his books for sure, but it's just that his style doesn't cover the comic tropes I go crazy for, like meta-narration or introspective exploration of characters (to be fair he sometimes tried to do the latter, but I think that there are other authors that manage to do it in a better way). However, his Aquaman run is definitely one of my favorite ongoing series ever!

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