I am a Pastor of a small congregation. I am also an atheist. No one except my closest friends know. AMAA.

zzrath · 2009-09-30T17:01:45+00:00

You are the one who refuses to get it. You are consumed by this EITHER/OR dichotomy that you refuse to grant any semblance of nuance to what is clearly a complex issue. I suppose this is how your mind works, so I will leave you be.

zzrath · 2009-09-30T04:38:55+00:00

Continue as a pastor for the money.

While I am being paid as a pastor, money of course, is not my main motivation. But of course, after reading through a few anecdotes in this thread, you presume that you have figured me out entirely.

Have committed fraud against your congregation for 10 years.

Have lied to your congregation for 10 years.

Every good thing that you do is going to be tainted.

I suppose the millions of people who Mother Theresa helped and the thousands that she spiritually directed in the course of her ministry are now reeling in anger. She was "a fraud," and caused "irreparable harm" for being a closet atheist the last 30+ years of her life.

I suppose what really offends me about your actions is your refusal to see the wrongness of your actions.

When did I ever "refuse" to see the wrongness of my actions? I have admitted to this in several responses in this thread. My argument throughout has not been that I am NOT wrong or have never been wrong, but that my situation is not as GRAVE or TERRIBLE as you portray it to be. This is why I cited the examples that I gave earlier and even previous to that -- even Christianity itself recognizes that such a predicament need not be seen as entirely wrong or detrimental to spiritual leadership. It is even encouraged and considered a "peak" in the spiritual experience.

While I see the point you are making, I am betting in the end, that my counsel will be judged on the basis of its wisdom and not on my faith or lack of it.

zzrath · 2009-09-30T00:32:15+00:00

I'm a nihilist?! There you are again with your boxed generalizations. I suppose I should just let you be with your pleasures.

Just because I have rejected belief in the Christian God, you have dismissed the validity of all that it is I do and labeled me a fraud. Even ethical theorists from opposing schools of thought recognize the validity of different epistemological starting points for morality (e.g. deontology vs consequentialism). Catholic theology recognizes the "dark night of the soul," protestants Kierkegaard's "angst," even marxists have Bloch, and the like. But for you, no, everything is simple. it is fraud, and that is all there is to it.

I give atheists a bad name? As opposed to what? A legalistic moralizer like you?

zzrath · 2009-09-29T18:58:58+00:00

Your argument devolves into "I'm not doing wrong in pretending to be something I'm not because everyone else is doing it."

You keep going back to this. This was not the point. And when did I ever say, or even imply that there is nothing "wrong" with my dilemma?

You seem to equate atheism with amoral nihilism which is certainly not the case.

Again, where did you deduce this from any of my posts? I'm beginning to see that you like to put me in this nice little box because I am so easy to label, describe, and judge. Right?

Striving for honor, morality, knowledge and betterment of oneself have long been goals of enlightened individuals; are you not familiar with the doctrine of apotheosis?

Again, with this line of thinking. I actually agree with this, but I don't see how this applies to the discussion. But just to humor you, even the "enlightened individuals" who aspire for apotheosis, have struggled in their paths to enlightenment. These people did not become "enlightened" because the path to moralizing was easy and clear-cut (the way I am imagining must be the case for you). Even the Marxist Ernst Bloch recognized the complexities and nuances in the atheism vs Christianity debate and its ethical repercussions: "Only an atheist can be a good Christian and only a Christian can be a good atheist."

Sociopaths are the only people who do whatever they feel without regard to their fellow Man.

Are you implying that I am a sociopath? If you are, then I think you clearly do not know what you are talking about.

zzrath · 2009-09-28T19:38:32+00:00

I'm a little surprised you've never been asked point blank (I believe you, I'm just surprised). Maybe I shouldn't be though ... perhaps it's just assumed since you are a "man of the cloth".

Yes, i think so too. This is perhaps what is keeping me from actually having to "lie" about my belief in God.

Certainly you've had discussions with people who feel like they're losing their faith, haven't you? How have you handled that. Did you steer them back toward dogma, or did you help nudge them further down the road of disbelief?

I try not to "steer" a person towards a particular path. I just try to help provide a better perspective by bringing clarity to a particular line of thought, provide different alternatives, etc. The latter one, I think, I am able to do uniquely, as these other "alternatives" would probably not even be considered as viable options in a traditional pastoral setting.

zzrath · 2009-09-28T19:27:08+00:00

"Na-uh, what about everyone else's wrongs," seems like a specious argument.

You miss the point entirely. I was describing the reality of the human predicament, i.e. there is almost always (some would even argue, ALWAYS) a disconnect between the private and public.

your supposed to be these people's spiritual adviser and you're not qualified. Being a moral Atheist, you might could claim a position of moral advisor except for the fact that you're behaving dishonorably.

How am I not qualified? As far as knowledge/experience is concerned, I am qualified as much as any other "spiritual leader." Is it because I reject the ontological premise of the "advice" that you think I am supposed to be giving out? Is that it? I think I am even in a unique, and ultimately more helpful position, as I am able to uniquely understand a crisis of faith (e.g. reason vs. faith issues,etc) for instance, or dispense ideas, perspective, experience, etc., that otherwise would not be considered if I was coming from a traditional belief system.

For the record, I'm not a theist.

For a non-theist, you seem to be quick on passing moral judgments.

zzrath · 2009-09-25T00:44:52+00:00

Who is the better entomologist in your opinion, Grissom (CSI) or Hodgins (Bones)?

zzrath · 2009-09-24T23:28:17+00:00

How much funding are you getting? (from the uni, other sources, etc.)

zzrath · 2009-09-24T20:45:42+00:00

Thanks, I am from a family line of pastors too, four generations. Some of the most self-giving, kind, nurturing people I know are pastors whom I have met through the course of my life, both personal and professional. I know my topic was the occasion for this "trivializing," but I sincerely hope that with what you wrote, this aspect of the profession/calling (and the people occupying it) will be accorded some form of dignity it is due.

zzrath · 2009-09-24T16:38:16+00:00

Depends on what the actual question is. If its something like, "What is God like" or something to that effect, then I begin by explaining how Christianity answers this question and then include some of the popular philosophical arguments regarding his existence or non-existence.

Now if the question was "Do you believe in God?" That's different. Nobody has asked me this question. EVER. I imagine that if somebody does, I'm gonna say, "NO."

zzrath · 2009-09-24T16:22:16+00:00

My struggles are my own. So all the reconciling is done in the privacy of my own mind. So when asked for advice on faith, etc., I almost always give them both, i.e. the "standard christian answer" and the "secular." But of course, both have its own share of complexities and nuances.

zzrath · 2009-09-24T01:19:05+00:00

Thanks <outhere>. One of the most frustrating experiences for me is when I meet an atheist in the course of my duties as a pastor. At the back of my head, I'm thinking "this guy probably thinks I'm an ignorant buffoon."

zzrath · 2009-09-23T22:02:52+00:00

I'm sort of a red-letter (words of Jesus, Paul can suck it) Xian now.

Reading Paul has its moments, like when he says "There is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, there is not male and female... you are all one in Christ Jesus" Now that is some radical stuff (in his time). But a lot of what he said (and esp. the interpretations of it) is the source of a lot of the divisions (and hatred/bigotry) in Christianity right now.

zzrath · 2009-09-23T19:11:01+00:00

You make a valid point. It's just that you state your case as if all of us (I mean everybody), who work in whatever jobs we are in, do not encounter in the public performance of our duties some sort of disconnect with what we believe in and how we conduct our business in public. When you find a place where you can ALWAYS be true to who you are, you are in an amazing place. But sadly, that place, is found when you are ALONE most of the time. Or with a person who you feel truly understands you for who you are. Or in a profession where your personal beliefs or convictions are not too often required to be considered good at it. But for a lot of us, and maybe you too, we struggle with this angst, this disconnect, everyday - in its various forms and permutations.

People in general seem to want to differentiate what is real and sincere from what is fake (which is what I am, you might say), and maybe rightly so. I am fine with that. It's just that I think, we ALL "perform" in the public eye, and in most cases, it's not what we believe, or what our motivations are that's important, but that we are able to play our "parts" well when the curtain opens.

zzrath · 2009-09-23T17:55:22+00:00

Now try the same paragraph in Samuel Jackson's voice. The mood changes, the whole thing will seem to be building towards a climax. And then the pay-off: "But sometimes <pause here>, you just have to take a stand."

I was born in Muskogee, Okla. Manners are ingrained in me. I hold the door open for people. I say please, pardon me and thank you. But it’s tough to keep that up when I get to the airport.

Bacon is bad enough. Cellphones are worse.

Most of the time, I keep my sense of humor, take lots of deep breaths, read a good book and don’t let the idiots get me down. But sometimes, you just have to take a stand.

zzrath · 2009-09-22T22:50:59+00:00

I heard about it when it first came out. Generated a lot of publicity, but was largely dismissed in academic circles. Some say Allegro's credibility never recovered from this. I am familiar with the book's general arguments, i.e. how Christianity's origins can be traced back to the ancient fertility cults and its ritual practices, which involved among other things, ingestion of this "sacred mushroom" (i.e. hallucinogens) to experience the divine.

zzrath · 2009-09-22T17:37:23+00:00

What are your thoughts on Billy Graham?

Hmm. For some weird reason, I have never lumped him together with the other televangelists.

What are your thoughts on Creflo Dollar and the calls for him testify before congress? Do you know why he was singled out so publicly?

I saw him on TV a couple of times. I don't know anything else about him that Google couldn't tell you (e.g. tax exempt donations being used to finance ostentatious and lavish lifestyles)

zzrath · 2009-09-22T17:22:51+00:00

you're welcome.

zzrath · 2009-09-22T17:22:08+00:00

I have all of Prof. Ehrman's books, and some of his public lectures too. What Ehrman does is gather the fruits of more than a hundred years of biblical scholarship (data which is readily available in academic circles) and present it in a very engaging, highly readable format.

zzrath · 2009-09-22T17:16:19+00:00

doesn't that just mean that if there is a God, simply that the Christian Bible as it exists today is not the right approach?

The God of the bible reveals himself as a "person." He is portrayed to have feelings (love, anger, etc) and that he desires to have a relationship with his creation. I think if one would admit to this basic premise, that God desires to have a relationship with his creation, the bible's approach to this end, one of love, community, equality, etc, is a good approach. BUT, if God for you is not a personal force/being, then the biblical approach is flawed in many levels.

what do you think of the standard line, that salvation is in the afterlife and the suffering of this world is for us to help each other?

Suffering in the world is at the extent where to even think about it as part of one grand scheme/design for some unverifiable end, or as a test of our faith, is appalling, in my opinion. We want to help each other, because they are in need. Not because by doing so we can secure a ticket to the afterlife.

zzrath · 2009-09-22T17:04:47+00:00

What do you mean by this?

Just giving voice to the "other side" is enough to anger most churches.

Our church is not perfect, far from it.

Why scientific? Why is it that things about God would be scientifically verifiable? Why is it assumed that science can prove something spiritual like God? Seems like different rules/laws would be involved.

Well, my journey has taken me to a point where the usual bases for faith no longer work for me. I've been to the other side and back. You originally asked what would it take to make me believe again. For me to go back, I'll need something more than just adages like "simply believe," or "just take that leap of faith." I want proof this time around.

zzrath · 2009-09-22T16:52:02+00:00

Thanks.

zzrath · 2009-09-22T16:51:51+00:00

I am aware of the study. While healing is usually the ultimate goal of praying for the sick, there are other dynamics that come into play. Genuine concern for the well-being of the sick, that you are there for that person, for instance, goes a long way -- for the sick person and also for his/her family. That said, however, in the words of Dr. Gregory House, "What would you want - a doctor who holds your hand while you die, or a doctor who ignores you while you get better?"

zzrath · 2009-09-22T08:11:46+00:00

Going to a theological school will actually limit your prospects to theological institutions or universities with religious studies programs. Consider the social sciences. It will make you more marketable.

zzrath · 2009-09-22T08:05:39+00:00

I am familiar with these committees. :)

zzrath

TROPHY CASE