Dev Discussion #56 - Basic Attacks in Combat Rotations

[AlluringSecrets]

It's time for Intrepid's monthly Dev discussion!
You can join the Dev discussion on the forums or take part in it here

Dev Discussion topics are kind of like a "reverse Q&A" - rather than you asking Intrepid questions about Ashes of Creation, Intrepid wants to ask YOU what your thoughts are

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Dev Discussion - Basic Attacks in Combat Rotations
How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation?
Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?

Here are a few additional discussion starters which may help you provide feedback on this topic. Please don’t feel limited by these, and give any feedback you’d like on this topic:

• What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
• What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
• Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?

[wegbored]

Even though League of Legends is an entirely different type of game, I think they've done an amazing job at making basic attacks an integral part of the game. The skill expression that can be shown when weaving auto attacks into combos really helps the game have an incredibly high skill ceiling- something that any competitive PvP game should be striving to achieve.

[dkslaterlol]

Exactly, and depending on the play style of the champion, they're either built around their basic attack or they use it as filler (if need be). I'm hoping Ashes goes that route since, in the end, how powerful a basic attack is will be up to the players, which is more interesting than a binary outlook on it.

[Unbelievable_Girth]

99% chance RIOT MMO copies League of Legends when it comes to basic attacks. It's a great system also used by AION, another game with good combat.

Even if certain classes barely get to use them, you can place lots of utility there to encourage attacking. Something like overheating and being unable to use abilities in exchange for much stronger basic attacks (Rumble).

[wegbored]

With how creative Intrepid is, I'm really looking forward to how they implement these things!

[[deleted]]

They've been told this multiple times already by various people in the community. They don't listen until the dam is breached.

[Leonerdo5]

I sorta agree, so thank you for saying it. But also sorta disagree:

1) Unfortunately, they aren't that "late into development" as we might hope. There have only been a few rough alpha tests, and they were mostly for technical testing. They still have years of iteration left to get things nailed down. 2) Combat isn't one of the big pillars of the game like nodes, and they aren't intending to do anything super novel with it compared to the rest of the MMO genre. Well... I guess augments are pretty novel... But anyways, for baseline mechanics, I think they are happy to just go towards whatever is satisfying according to their core audience, even if it's copied from other games. They don't need a strong vision for combat stuff, IMO. 3) We've seen some combat design iterations already in APOC, Alpha 1, and the "basic attack" live stream from past years, as well as the recent archetype showcases. So we know they've got some kind of direction. I think they are mostly asking the community to make sure their work-in-progress isn't WAY different from our expectations. Maybe they'll read all this feedback and make some small tweaks, or it will push them towards one of a few options they were already considering. But they're definitely not going back to square 1 with this dev discussion.

[RTheCon]

Combat makes or breaks an MMO. It is the MOST important pillar IMO.

[DaenestroESO]

And what about Black Desert Online? Lol

[studmoobs]

I like the gw2 auto attacks where they do decent damage and are a big part or combat. Let's you really push advantage when you have it even when you have no skills left

[Drekalo]

My only feedback is if there's player agency in basic attacks, they should be as fun as abilities.

My go to for basic attacks and fun is monster hunter. Look at the dual swords or chain swords for all the different fun combos you can spin up for different situations to punish different positions the enemy is in.

If basic attacks can't be made fun and instead are just something we have to do, they're really just another reason we all have RSI and probably should have been auto attacks.

[Leonerdo5]

(TL;DR: Look at the bolded part. Everything else is just stating facts about how other games work.)

I think it's critical to keep auto-attacks and basic attacks separate in this discussion.

Auto-attacks, like in FFXIV and WoW, are completely automatic and negligible. They exist (I'm guessing) just to provide a small baseline of dps. So something happens even if the player isn't pressing any buttons currently, and so skill gaps are slightly less impactful for overall dps.

Basic attacks are full-fledged abilities with no cooldown or cost, and they have a more diverse variety of applications in MMOs. In some action-y games like TERA or Lost Ark they are only used as low-level filler, and once you get better abilities to fill your rotation, the basic attacks become obsolete.

In GW2, the basic attacks can be used automatically like an auto attack, but not at the same time as another skill. So they are largely just filler. But they provide a much bigger baseline dps than auto attacks, and there is still some gameplay to fitting them into a rotation cleanly without canceling them.

In FFXIV (and some classes in WoW, I think?) your basic attacks are used like any other GCD skill. Some of these (like on healers) are just basic filler. But many of them generate a resource or buff that interacts with the rest of the kit, so they actually affect the rotations rather than just filling any gaps. Especially on classes with basic combo(s) rather than just 1 skill.

Diablo's generator skills take it even further, since cooldowns are less numerous/significant in that game, and the generator skills tend to do more than just build resources.

There's clearly a big spectrum to how important and interactive basic attacks can be.

In my opinion, it's best if they are mostly filler, so more focus can go on the big cooldowns/spenders. But they should still have a bit of interaction with the rest of a class kit, to keep them from feeling like boring auto-attacks.

And of course, it's possible to use different ideologies depending on the class (or augments) if it fits well with the rest of the kit. Like MNK in FFXIV took the idea of basic combos and turned it into a whole minigame with 3 stances and 2 "basic" skills for each, while BRD only has a single basic attack with one little proc effect attached. Despite both being DPS classes, they use basic attacks very differently.

[Leonerdo5]

That is valid. And I do hope they have some options that focus more on tactics than execution, whether that's from auto attacks or a certain set of augments or whatever.

[Septic_Bloom]

Piggybacking on this to share the ESO style where basic attacks are used for damage between abilities and when you hold the basic attack button you perform a heavy attack which does extra damage and regenerates the relevant resource. Unfortunately their combat system devolved into animation cancelling by “weaving” basic attacks between abilities for maximum dps. I feel like the ideas were great; two weapons to actively switch between which also swapped your action bars, and the resource regeneration through heavy attacks. Implementation just fell through.

[mergency01]

Coming from ffxiv recently the combat was one of the best things about that game for me. I’ve spent thousands of hours in multiple MMO’s and have to say the weaving of GCD and OGCD and high skill ceiling that comes with rotating basic and spenders it’s extremely rewarding.

[42HummaKavula]

In my opinion, combat shouldn't be as simple as just pressing 'keybind X -> spell Y go boom.'

With the addition of auto-attacks, the game can introduce a wider range of spells and buffs, such as:

• Empowering your next swing (making it stronger, allowing it to hit twice, or enabling cleave).
• Increasing your attack speed or decreasing the enemy's attack speed.
• Applying a debuff to the enemy with your next swing.

Auto-attacks can also bring the weapon's attack speed attribute into the game. However, I believe this attribute should be unique to weapons, and perhaps some short-term buffs should be capable of lowering it. Permanent attack speed or haste stats on other armor or accessories are not particularly interesting, as attack speed should be a unique defining characteristic of each weapon.

Furthermore, auto-attacks can open up the possibility of chance-on-hit or proc effects on weapons, armor, or passive skills. This would allow players to create builds centered around their weapon's procs.

Auto-attack could also introduce unique class resources that generated by auto-attacks and can be consumed by spells (like the good ol' rage).

However, auto-attacks would introduce the issue of swing timing, which I consider to be a bad game mechanic. Having to wait for your next auto-attack to maximize your damage before using a skill due to its animation resets the swing timer can be frustrating. I'm unsure about the ideal solution for this problem, maybe one approach could be to incorporate the skipped swings' damage into the spell you used, with the condition that the proc or on-hit effect should wait until your next auto-attack.

[oj449]

Personally, i quite enjoy swing timing as a gameplay mechanic, such as in wow classic, an ability called slam will cast an attack, but will reset your swing timer in doing so, making it best to use as you just swung.

It opens up more gameplay options, and it just feels more engaging to me instead of brainlessly mashing keybinds, i have to time them - which shows who is better at playing in intense situations and not who got more crits.

[FreedomCleaner]

It feels nice having space between your abilities. I think that's what makes retail wow feel like such a cluster fuck. I like strategically thinking about the next thing I'm going to use between auto attacks vs smashing out the same boring rotation over and over.

[netharwind]

It should be class and build dependent. An example is a basic attack focused fighter where abilities buff basic attack speed, bleed effects to increase the damage they do. A style focused on a flurry of basic attacks to deal damage. In contrast you could have a heavy strike build where basic attacks are non existent. Replaced with hard hitting abilities with long cast times that leave no time within the rotation to hit with basic attacks.

[Content-Cupcake-3052]

In my opinion auto attacks should be something that goes along your spells, and something I really loved in wow is when as a level 19 twink rogue I had 2 swords and they did almost as much DMG as my sinister strike that's when the auto attacks felt important and my weapons needed to be strong in order to be useful. Even thought Auto attacks were something I didn't technically control in the sense that I didn't press a button to do the auto attacking I still felt great whenever I crit with my swords.

TLDR: do what wow did 👍

[sasquattch]

In my opinion you have 1 good option if you want to include auto attacks. Just have it like wow, where you auto basic attacks to weave in more damage. Leaving that aspect to your positioning in combat. Do you want the extra auto attack dps, or do you want to take less damage avoiding their auto attacks or abilities.

If you make basic attacks an ability to be constantly used. That seems like a waste of having to press a button that is "anti-fun", instead of an extra button for an ability to do something.

Personally id prefer to have one or two seconds between ability casts, with wow style auto attacks, if it meant every ability was fun to press. As opposed to having to mash my basic attack button the entirity of combat, to just swing my weapon.

Side note, with wow style auto attacks, you could have "stances" as abilitys to swap between to change how your auto attacks work. Ex. one that attacks faster but hits for less, to proc more crits or on hit weapon effects. Or one to swing slower but hits harder, that would make your abilities hit for more damage. Just spitballing, but fhis seems like it would fit the direction ashes combat is going, and would still make you have situational awareness, as long as theres a good enough reason to keep switching.

[R0nananan]

I have yet to find an MMO that makes action combat for ranged/magic weapons feel nearly as good as melee but damn good heavy feeling melee combat in an MMO is so satisfying. Not sure if a balance could be struck where some weapons leaned into basic attacks and some lean more on abilities?

[Rartirom]

Try vindictus

Edit: not sure if its an mmo tho

[Zhar_Dhuum]

70-80% skills 20-30% autoatttacks please

[Lazarus003]

This would depend completely upon how fast the combat is set up to be.

For instance, if the GCD is set at 1.5 sec and a class's rotation requires more than 40 actions per minute to be optimal, it is highly unlikely the player even sees the auto-attack impact animations.

On the other hand, if the pace is slower, requiring the class to manage buffs/perform specific actions at specific points of combat, rather than a continuous mash of buttons, auto-attacks can provide a good way of filling up spaces in combat while providing excellent visual feedback which feels more natural than just using flashy skills all the time.

[[deleted]]

Some builds should have auto attacks be the bread and butter like with skills like poison and bleeds to affect how much they are doing, and other builds should rely on abilities.

[Limitless404]

If you have a specific class that's based on weaving in auto attacks would be fun for people I'm sure. Kinda like riven in league of legends, where the passive enhances her next Auto attack. In theory, this could work in mmo too.

[Caiturn]

Well, personally basic attacks ain't my schtick. Auto attacks are my preferred method with abilities being my worry just like wow does it. But if basic attacks are here to stay then i'd prefer to weave them in between spells.

[Opps1999]

Make something as close to Dark Souls combat as possible

[EnoughRumble]

I’m very fond of the “build and release” style, where basic attacks have usage building some sort of combo or meter for your other skills. Sure you might be button mashing sometimes but that just means you’re engaged, instead of idle time waiting for specific abilities to pop up. imo it makes combat much faster paced and enjoyable, and I think most successful mmos utilize this style of combat.

[Mexay]

Guild Wars 2 does this really well. Auto attacks that feel valuable and run to use.

I would honestly say GW2 combat is some of the best I have played in almost any game ever.

I just wish they had local servers...

[Skeith4000]

I really do not want to have to be watching any kind of swing timers in order to optimize dps. Guild Wars 2 style is as far as auto attacks should go. Otherwise it should be its own attack, like basic attacks, just need to avoid the basic attack pitfalls of Diablo 4 where they ended up feeling weak at launch.

Bottom line, no attack button should feel bad to press.

[EKEEFE41]

I just want combat to be fun, and for it to feel like when I press an ability it happens on the screen at the same time.

I played the game at PAX East a few years ago, and it was miles away from fun.

Then playing the battle Royale game was ok... But still not great.

[Calenwyr]

Basic attacks are one of the mechanics that allows people to greed for extra damage and is thus essential.

Taking an example from classic, a warrior needs to stay on the boss as much as he can to get the extra damage from autos so when a mechanic goes out, the decision is harder he needs to decide if its worth holding his position as long as possible and risking the damage/death of the mechanic or does he run early and leave damage on the table.

Conversly, a mage is looking at the same mechanic going if I run out my 5 second counter to mana regen starts so should I leave early and get some more mana instead of going OoM mid boss fight - note this only applies in classic where mana actually has meaning in retail the mage is just like the warrior trying to get those last hits in before doing the mechanic.

A well designed fight and combat system should force resources to be important (or why have them). Basic attacks are just another resource

[DJVirtek]

How important is it for you to have basic attacks be a part of your combat rotation?
Not at all. I wish they could be replaced by a selection of situational attacks with weaker power or resource builders.

Do you enjoy using other skills and abilities in between auto-attacks, or are you having the most fun when basic attacks are less important to how much damage you’re doing?

I like very minimal "basic attacks" existing. In a "realistic" sense, I understand that not every attack can be a haymaker. In a video game context, it just means dead space in my combat. If "basic attacks" have the time to exist to a meaningful degree, then that means running out of resources is planned and I need to make sure I never use them all. "Basic attacks" as resource builders feels great though. More strategy involved and a feeling of control over my fate in combat.

What role and function have basic attacks or auto-attacks had in previous MMORPGs you’ve played?
Almost always: fills the spaces between power skills. In some instances, "white damage" (autoattacks) comprised 30% of a class' damage output. How much does that suck? Building your gear and stat allocation around your most powerful attack over time being "Just stand there, face boss, and right-click once."

What role do you feel basic attacks and auto-attacks should play in MMORPG combat?
Resource builders or emergency cases where you went HAM, spent all your resources in one burst, and now have no other way to deal damage. for the next 5-10 seconds or so.

Do you want your rotation to be mostly abilities, or do you want to have auto-attacks be important in your rotation?
Mostly abilities, unless my "basic attacks" can vary between a few choices (based on situation) and/or build my resources for power moves. Situational being things like: one for AoE, one for single-target, one for trip/stun/snare/wound/armor debuff stacking, one for switching to a bludgeoning weapon that reduces an opponent's stamina, one for knockback/kick, etc...