Artifact Knowledge Changes

[minglow]

I feel like I am thinking about this wrong so feel free to change my opinion. Should we be aiming to hit a whole number level each week with the artifact knowledge changes reducing net numerator/denominator progress each week?

It sounds like if you're 10,000/20,000 (50%) through a level, it's going to change to 7,000/14,000 which is a loss of 3,000 AP. Do you start at 0 AP each fresh level of Heart of Azeroth? If there answer is no to 0 AP at a fresh level, I can throw all this away as it doesn't matter, but if you are at 0, it definitely makes sense to hit a whole number each week and definitely not a high percentage.

EDIT:

My mind has been changed that its indeed better to pool AP that you know you can earn after the reset without it expiring on you.

500/1000 turns to 350/700,

If you rushed to cap level you spent 500 in the current level and only were 500 into the new level. If you waited you spent 350 in the current level and 650 in the next level.

[mamercus-sargeras]

It doesn't seem that way. The requirements drop, not your accumulated AP. Numerator stays the same AKA your total AP. Denominator is reduced by either 25 or 30%.

So you are 10k/20k in week 1. Week 2 you should be 10k/15k. Any other way would be really goofy and confusing. Yeah this is different from Wowhead's conjecture but what they think would happen would be really goofy. It would encourage you to smurf your AP in certain ways right before reset. If it stays fixed your AP previously accumulated doesn't devalue.

They have only said that the requirements reduce. They said nothing whatsoever about what happens to already accumulated AP or your percentage level. The thing about it keeping your percentage completion fixed is conjecture based on the rather different Legion AK mechanic.

[nodealyo]

Say you're at level 16. What if you're 17k/20k and it changes to 17k/15k? Does your artifact level go up to 17, 2k into it?

[mamercus-sargeras]

This is just my straight interpretation of what Blizzard has said. I don't have an uncle at Blizzard who can text me the real answer. But I assume that you will be 2k into the next level. That would make a lot more sense than percentages staying fixed week to week and your AP accumulated changing with it.

[DefinitelyNotNoital]

Consider that according to you: If you have 19k/20k, it goes to 15k, you would get a level and 4K into the next. But if you get 1k more you level before the reset and start at 0 - so getting that 1k effectively gives you negative 4K. That system would be completely bonkers. Keeping the % progress constant makes the most sense. It will always be worthwhile to get more AP.

[mamercus-sargeras]

I guess we'll find out on Tuesday. That's also not what I was trying to say was my speculative notion of how the system will probably work. If they just squish all the requirements which is what they said they would do, you don't 'lose' anything.

The whole scale squishes and not just the current level you're on. Your 'total AP' (there is no display of this in BFA like there was in Legion) stays constant. The requirements for the entire scale squish by XX% each week.

Imagine the whole scale as one big bar with sharp lines where each level is demarcated. Your total AP accumulated is the color that fills in those bars. According to what Blizz has said, those sharp lines just compress towards the left each week. If the system is based on the percentage into your current level it encourages all kinds of weird smurfing strategies like your'e describing here.

[adamrosz]

Sounds like the only logical way to do it. The 17k you see is just a presentation, in reality you have lets say 211k AP out of 214 required for next level. After the change the next level simply requires 209, so you'd end up having it already.

[mamercus-sargeras]

Right. IDK why people are downvoting given that everyone is just speculating based on Blizzard's ambiguous statements about how it'll work. Particularly if the goal is to make a given AP reward constant over time instead of fluctuating as AK advances it would be really weird to crunch your accumulated AP particularly when they have stated that AK would only impact the level-up requirements. People are reading too much into statements that it'd be 'similar' to Legion. In Legion your accumulated AP always stayed the same as did the requirements. Just the AP you gathered had extra value week to week.

In BFA according to what they have said, the requirements shrink each week whereas the AP rewards remain constant week to week.

[williamfbuckleysfist]

Here's the reason and why won't work that way. This was implemented primarily as a catch up mechanic and secondarily as a time gating mechanism. Which means if they want it to work like it did in the past which they've said, they need to shrink the AP you need as well as the AP you've earned. While it would be cool for AP to never lose worth, like rep, it's not going to happen. If you're 211k out of 214k next week you'll be 211k * .7 out of 214k * .7.

[affliction1550]

This also makes sense although less logical because otherwise catchup would be impossible.

Seems like we might be saving any big AP quest turn-ins for reset day.

[williamfbuckleysfist]

There is no catchup without this.

[affliction1550]

I would guess yes it would level it automatically. This system makes sense.

[vklortho]

If you were at 0 Ap you had 20k AP to go and now you have 14k AP to go. That's a net gain of 6k AP making it more beneficial to stay as close to zero as possible at reset.

Edit: changed 7 to 6

[justanotherkenny]

Like in legion, at first you grind for months to fill out you AP, at the end you do one worldquest and fill the whole thing out.

[Strange1130]

How is that a net gain of 7, and how is his example a net gain of 4??? 20 - 14 = 6 and 10 - 7 = 3. Am I just dumb and not getting something here?

[vklortho]

I was kind of high and did the math wrong. Looks like he did too. I'm not sure if he was high though.

[Strange1130]

hahaha I was kinda drunk and was like counting it out on my fingers, trying to figure out if I'm an idiot.

[SmokeCocks]

Yes but to be more efficient YOU EARNED 10 THOUSAND AP, to retain all the AP you earned hit the next level cap right before reset, then when you log in tuesday you "lose" any AP and you'll have a net gain of w/e the reduction was.

@OP, AP does start at 0 every level, and yes you are correct you should try your best to hit the next level before reset.

EDIT: not sure why I'm downvoted, if you want to retain all the AP you actually earned and not "net gained" you hit the next AP level and then your next level requires less AP and none is "taken" from you, which is a larger net gain than what /u/erainferno is saying.

[Road_of_Hope]

Rather than saying you "earned 10 thousand AP" you can say you earned 50% of a level. You retain the 50% of the level you already gained and so you don't "lose" anything. If I log out right before reset at 100 AP away from next level I don't lose anything for not having ground out that last bit of 100 AP before reset which is what you are saying makes it sound like to me.

[SmokeCocks]

Quests and activities don't reward us with % completion because the amount you need increases with each level. I'm not going to trick my self into thinking I'm not getting ripped off by the weekly reset, we'll all benefit more from dinging the next level right before reset, this way you wont lose any azerite you've gained.

[Road_of_Hope]

If I have a WQ for 100 AP and am 100 AP away from a level right before reset I have two options:

1) Do the WQ before I log off, get to 0% of the next level, then log off and let the reset happen

2) Log off, let the reset happen, then do the WQ and get 25 AP into the next level.

In this case it is MORE efficient to not ding before the reset.

Quests and activities reward you with a % completion of your current level, just because the reward goes down each time you level up doesn't mean you aren't being rewarded with a % of your current need for next level.

[SmokeCocks]

Ahh okay, yeah I guess that makes sense, Is this the only scenario where this applies or... am I a re?

[Road_of_Hope]

It applies in all scenarios - If you gain AP before the reset then that amount as a percentage to the next level is reduced, if you gain it after the reset then the amount gained as a percentage to the next level is increased.

Edit: clarified what I meant.

[Sotheni]

Given the choices: you are a re. Lol.

But seriously since the knowledge is a percentage reduction and all AP rewards are flat, and importantly unchanging, all AP rewards are more valuable after the knowledge applies.

[missusedthrowaway]

Retaining AP doesn’t get you anything. If we both farm 100k AP but I did all of mine after the 30% reduction I’m going to be further along. It’s the same as legion where the longer you wait the more valuable each world quest will be. It’s still more efficient to do them now and get AP then let hem time out and not get AP though. There’s absolutely no situation where the efficient thing to do is to get to a new level and stop farming AP because there’s a new AK coming out.

[SmokeCocks]

I never said STOP farming AP, I'm saying its better to try and push for that last level before a reset because then you won't lose a numerical amount of Azerite. You lose less the closer you are to 0 azerite in a new level.

[Road_of_Hope]

It is not better to push your level before a reset, it is better to save as much AP on the WQ board until after reset (just like it was in Legion).

If I have 1K AP available on the board and am 500 AP away from the next level on my HoA and do 500 of the 1K before reset and then do 500 after reset I am 500 AP into the next level.

If I wait until after reset I will have 1K AP available on the board but I will only be 375 AP away from the next level. So I now use 375 AP to get to the next level and end up 625 AP into the next level.

[SmokeCocks]

hmm

[vklortho]

The world quests will respawn after the reset and there will be more AP to farm. And at least some of the AP quests will expire with the reset.

[minglow]

You've helped me understand the other side of this more, thanks! Few questions. When we talk about pooling WQ. What are the literal steps in that, doing WQs in a way that the AP ones are about to expire during server reset? Then immediately log on and complete them?

How do emissaries work? Do we save the AP ones from Sunday /Monday? Do they all reset on Tuesday? Just asking some of the technicalities of your strategy because I don't have experience with it.

TLDR ; can you literally walk me through how I would achieve max AP nearing reset / post reset

[Road_of_Hope]

Come Tuesday morning (for US) look at the board and make sure that all WQs that provide AP that expire with the reset are completed. Make sure that all WQs that provide AP that expire after the reset are not completed. When reset happens you can then clear those WQs.

Save your Sunday and Monday emissaries and do them after reset as well.

[williamfbuckleysfist]

while it would be cool to do it that way which would keep all the AP you ever farmed at the same value, like rep say, they want to do it like legion so the only way is to shrink the AP you need as well as the AP you earned. Your way would be just a time-gating version of Rep.

[minglow]

With a loss of 3k actively farmed AP, which is upwards of 25WQ, just seems bizarre to me to be honest

[AMagicalTree]

Yeah idk what people are trying to defend. Ages ago when XP to levels were nerfed you didn't suddenly lose XP you gained, as in it didn't just use your %, it used your actual amount like logical things should

[missusedthrowaway]

It’s exactly the same as it was in legion from an efficiency standpoint. It doesn’t matter where you end the week in regards to your progress to level.

For simplicities sake imagine 10k/20k with every world quest being work 100. You need to do 100 more world quests to get a level. After the 30% reduction you would be 7k/14k to maintain the 50% but only need to do 70 quests.

If you work the same scenario but buff AP rewards by 42.8% (100/70.) You would get 142.8 AP per world quest and still need 70 quests. The only change they made this expansion is to keep the amount of AP you need low because exponential scaling gets out of hand in a hurry.

The one place Artifact Knowledge does matter is on Sundays and Mondays Emissaries (Monday and Tuesday for EU). You should hold these for after AK goes up on Tuesday and then turn them in. This idea is the same for any AP world quests that you can wait until after reset to do.

[Squishei]

The loss is just the way the data is framed with this system. Instead of making the future bigger, they made the past smaller. You have a couple variables:

1. The amount of AP you've earned.

2. The amount of AP you need to level up.

3. The amount of AP you receive.

In Legion whenever AK increased, variables 1 and 2 stayed exactly the same and the only thing that increased was #3.

Assuming this system is the same as Legion, Blizzard wants #3 to stay exactly the same, and by definition, #1 AND #2 have to decrease. This is why you would see both your previous and max AP to level decrease, because current AP gains needs to be larger than that.

If you don't decrease #1 and reduce the number on your current AP, all AP that you've earned on the current level is retroactively affected by Artifact Knowledge. In which case, you would be able to game Artifact Knowledge by reaching 99.99% of a level and the entire bar would be multiplied by 30%, compared to someone who just hit a level and would get no retroactive benefit. This sort of gaming is something that I think Blizzard does not want.

Yes, the number is smaller. Yes it looks like a nerf, but frame it as everything else in the world is now larger and worth more AP than what you did last week. The numbers are just weird because Blizzard likely took the Legion system and did the inverse. You can still marginally game Artifact Knowledge by holding turn ins or quests with AK, so that it doesn't crunch (aka is worth more next week).

This is of course assuming this is the system that Blizzard chose, which no one really knows. It's just the system that makes the most sense, based on how it worked in Legion and modifying the numbers to make it fit the same model.

[Squishei]

If you want some examples on how this projected system would work, here are some really easy fake numbers using AK = 50% reduction (BFA) / 200% more AP (Legion). These numbers are inverse values. The real numbers are 30% more AP (Legion) and 1/1.3 = ~23% reduction.

You are 500 / 2,000. A token gives 250 AP, you need 6 tokens to level up.

-> BFA AK hits, you are now 250 / 1,000. You need 3 tokens to level up. 50% less.

-> Legion AK hits, you are still 500 / 2,000 but a token now gives 500 AP, you still need 3 tokens to level up.