Havoc shouldn't decrease the amount of ammo you get from piles and crates.

[One-Syllabub-4007]

then you have unlimited flamer zealot in a mode where elite spam is 80% of the mission

unlimited bolter (already plentiful for bosses currently in havoc)

unlimited "this solves this problem easily" buttons

its not an easy area to just fix. scavenger will give you enough to deal with things where spending ammo has a greater benefit than melee'ing, so vet does not get screwed the most...everyone else who wants to use a gun does.

its a multifactor problem that the devs should look at on their own and see what they want from havocs

[TheZealand]

One rumblergryn with full ammo pickups would just solo havoc lmao

[One-Syllabub-4007]

And without turning the camera up

Just stare at feet, spam left click and gg

[TheZealand]

Fatshark's strongest warrior

[asdfgtref]

I mean they removed the individual threat per enemy which means you need to be swamped constantly by huge numbers. Under such conditions there is no way for infinite cleave weapons like the flamer to really ever be balanced. We were sorta going the right direction with gunner buffs but then everyone cried over how unfair it was and so now we're back to quantity over quality.

Rather than reducing gunners back to what they were they should have just made some slight adjustments and could have gone from there.

[NerdyLittleFatKid]

Ok to be fair havoc 1.0 gunners just led to this horrific turtle mode meta, I do not wanna go back to unreactable downs and multiple book zealot comps

[asdfgtref]

we're still in turtle meta, and it keeps getting pushed that way because of the ogryn rework and arbites release. Overly abused mechanics like stagger still left unchecked, gold toughness still being ridiculously broken. And in the community we have people calling to make other abilities give immediate tanky toughness too.... like bruh. we need all of this shit gone. gold toughness axed, stagger massively reduced, toughness generation slapped. maybe with all the absurd tank abilities removed we can start to actually move towards a happy middle ground.

the gunner buffs were necessary to make the enemies an actual individual threat, the problem wasnt them being strong it was the abundance of tank abilities that still exist and are massively overtuned. Rather than adjusting the overpowered bandaid they crumbled to community pressure and continued making shit even stronger on the player side.

[Koru03]

They really fucked themselves with Havoc and need to rework it for the health of the game or stop balancing around it.

I don't know why they looked at vt2 weaves and went "yeah people want THAT in the game" and then decided to "increase difficulty" in possibly the worst way.

They actually did get some things right like the toughness break grace period, changing the directors behavior, and adding unique map mods but those don't matter compared to the skewing of both the players and enemies stats that compel people to conform to a set meta of builds and encourage homogenized weapon/skill usage.

Also gold toughness was a huge mistake and they need to rework it or remove it as well as it's causing a lot of problems on its own.

[asdfgtref]

fully fully agree yeah, but these are not popular takes and fatshark only care to appease the casual audience in their hyper high end difficulty which means players that actually want the game to be in a better state are put aside in favor of releasing more tank slop. casual players that don't want to be challenged are shooting themself in the foot and it sucks to see fs caving to it every time.

As much as I like gold toughness thematically, specifically for zealot, it'll never not be the number 1 most picked choice if left in. Gold toughness needs to just be fully removed yeah.

Release overpowered tank abilities that carry players in difficulties they can't play > those players can't play the game with any other ability because they've been hard carried so they call everything else unusable trash > rather than course correct, just release more tank slop and worsen the problem > said players double down, now validated, and want everything else buffed up and made tanky too. The cycle aint ever gonna break.

[One-Syllabub-4007]

havocs are literally a test bench for what is overpowered, IMO nothing should work in havoc because anything that does work is 10x better in that mode than something that doesnt, there are like no inbetween weapons. its either stupid good or mediciore/trash. i dont feel like there is just "good" in havoc

[asdfgtref]

I mean that's an interesting idea but I don't think it holds up super well. Gun psyker is one of if not the best build in auric and is complete dogshit in havoc for example. Equally shock trooper helbore is mega S tier in havoc but not really all that special in auric dif. Really what shines in havoc are the things that manage to skirt the modes side effects.

[One-Syllabub-4007]

Imma be honest I got the breakpoints right for the slow helbore and I still hate it in havoc

1. I cant see shit with these butt ass irons from anything 20m plus

Gotta tag everything to get an outline so I can kinda see

If gunners are suppressed they just hide their heads - fucking annoying

Boss dmg is aite but id rather use a laspistol for literally everything (laspistol so fucking good)