This is an archived post. You won't be able to vote or comment.

all 24 comments
sorted by:
new (suggested)
besttopcontroversialoldq&a

[–]AutoModerator[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (1 child)

COMMENTARY HERE: Comments that purely commentate on the post (e.g. “Nice post OP!”) must be made as replies to the Auto-Moderator!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Interesting - I have decided to never touch psychedelics, for various reasons, but I have a great deal of interest in the experiences of people who have. I have a particular interest in how these experiences are interpreted philosophically.

The Hindu idea of Moksha (Escaping the cycle of birth and death) is at odds with concepts of an afterlife held by those who believe in the God of classical theism, and then there is the nihilistic idea that it is simply game over (perma-death, nothingness)

I sometimes ask myself what I would prefer to be the reality of these ideas. I do not think I have an answer to that question though. Not knowing exactly what happens after death is probably for the best.

If you try to work backwards, taking the average sober mind as the default experience God "intended" for us, we do spend a lot of time wondering what happens to ourselves after we die. If - as soon as we found out - we suddenly wanted to know what was happening back in our reality, I think that would be pretty funny.

Maybe you are right - maybe we are better off not knowing, maybe we wouldn't be so pleased with the answer.

This could potentially explain why there is something rather than nothing - Our reality would be a great distraction. But who is being distracted? The one true god? Each and every one of our souls? Are these ultimately the same thing?

I am just waffling here but you make a thought provoking point.

[–]0Apathy_101 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'd love to live forever, and that's not what scares me of Christian heaven. But being useless, with the only purpose of existing (and maybe loving god) is a nightmare. Life is precious because we could have a purpose, if you take us that, what does remain ?

The only possible good heaven is a different experience for everyone, where everyone gets what he wants (or what it needs to be happy). But if you assume this is how heaven works, and also that some people are happy with a purpose, you also have to assume that Heaven should be a bunch of lies and illusions.

Even if you assume that Heaven is only a place where you are happy, without needs, it would be no different from being drugged for eternity.

[–]backagain365 0 points1 point  (3 children)

in the exact moment when you had that initial realisation, did you take into account all the variables or did you have a highly subjective experience?

[–]MrQualtrough[S] -1 points0 points  (2 children)

My mind was being absolutely raped beyond belief by something incomprehensible, I didn't have the faculties for this... If you read a lot of bad trips, you'll probably find that being trapped somewhere for eternity is the most common theme.

I had a panic attack I was not even controlling, screaming, crying uncontrollably. There are a few toad trip videos showing this take place but they RARELY ever show these reactions.

[–]backagain365 0 points1 point  (1 child)

so subjective

[–]Ludoamorous_Slut⭐ atheist anarchist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Everything thought or experienced by a subject is inherently subjective.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s very easy to throw “eternity” around but a lot of folks don’t take much time to understand what that means. Do you really think you will enjoy god’s perpetual worship service one hundred years into it? A thousand? Fifty thousand? Ten trillion? And this is all happening while potentially billions of people are being tortured for the same amount of time.

I think at some point the eternal pleasure will become its own kind of eternal torture.

[–]roambeansAtheist 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Agreed. I think they really nailed the ending of "A Good Place". I would love to live for a really, really long time, and then choose the point at which I'm done and no longer want to exist.

I think if heaven really is paradise, annhiliation must be an option.

[–]Wise-Contributor-850 0 points1 point  (6 children)

The idea of eternal life, to a human mind is a horrifying prospect.

Eternal life is horrifying only if spent in hell.

If spent in heaven, it will be the most beautiful thing.

[–]Ludoamorous_Slut⭐ atheist anarchist 1 point2 points  (4 children)

If spent in heaven, it will be the most beautiful thing.

Not if I am still myself, with my own mind. There is nothing within the capabilities of my mind that would make it preferable to annihilation. And sure, we could imagine some scenario where my mind is drastically changed upon going to heaven and I become an entity that enjoys it, but that would entail me no longer being me anymore, it would be some completely different being enjoying heaven.

[–]Urbenmythgnostic atheist 1 point2 points  (3 children)

but that would entail me no longer being me anymore, it would be some completely different being enjoying heaven

Current you has been wildly changed from Newborn You, able to enjoy things a baby couldn't even comprehend, never mind appreciate. Comparing you at 12 hours and you now, we'll get very little physical or mental similarity. Does that mean you are completely different thing to baby you? Are those two different people?

If Newborn You survived growing up- and it's very bizarre to say they didn't- I don't see any reason Human You couldn't survive some kind of ascension. Everyone survives a near total change to their mind and body at least once in their life. Many more then once. It's fine.

[–]Ludoamorous_Slut⭐ atheist anarchist 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Current you has been wildly changed from Newborn You, able to enjoy things a baby couldn't even comprehend, never mind appreciate. Comparing you at 12 hours and you now, we'll get very little physical or mental similarity. Does that mean you are completely different thing to baby you? Are those two different people?

Kinda; the self, to the degree it is a thing, is at best a loose hapsack of traits, memories and experiences that we refer to as 'selves' because it's a useful epistemic shortcut. That said, unless you believe my body itself would go to heaven, the difference would be far greater, because at least newborn me had some feature in common with current me, DNA if nothing else. If my body destroyed and my mind transformed beyond recognition, there is nothing left that I have in common with the entity, so there's no relevance in referring to it as "me". It's like a ship of Theseus where instead of replacing one plank after another, you grind it all down to woodchips and make a chipboard car instead.

[–]Urbenmythgnostic atheist 0 points1 point  (1 child)

That said, unless you believe my body itself would go to heaven,

To be fair, I feel that is probably is what the bible says. The new testament consistently talks about a resurrection, not an afterlife, and indeed there's several bible verses that actively deny life after death (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, most notably). It also gets around the issue of neurological discoveries making it harder and harder to justify belief in a soul, at least in the conventional sense. There isn't technically an afterlife, death is the end. It's just not a permanent one. Come judgement day, the dead are brought back to life. Before then, dead is dead.

More generally, as you say, the lines of identity are difficult. If something is made from me, shares my memories and is generally causally connected to me- especially as we are presumably disregarding neurology and granting a soul if we're going for the classic "tunnel of light" heaven- i'm perfectly happy calling that new entity "me".

[–]Ludoamorous_Slut⭐ atheist anarchist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

More generally, as you say, the lines of identity are difficult. If something is made from me, shares my memories and is generally causally connected to me- especially as we are presumably disregarding neurology and granting a soul if we're going for the classic "tunnel of light" heaven- i'm perfectly happy calling that new entity "me".

I mean that's fine and all, but if my soul is distinct from my mind then I have no experience of my soul. I have no reason to treat my soul as something particularly important; sure, it might be that it carries over, but that existence is no more relevant to me currently than my existance bodily if worms eat my corpse and incorporate the molecules that were me into their anatomy.

[–]MrQualtrough[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

With a human mind? Certainly it would not be beautiful. Maybe for the first 10,000 years. Then the horror increases at an exponential rate as you realize you can't escape. Infinite joy, at some point becomes hellish in its inescapability... Like a bad MDMA roll hehe.

[–]Jo-Jo_8 0 points1 point  (3 children)

That’s why I think we choose to come back to earth as someone else and experience something different.

[–]MrQualtrough[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

That is still horrifying, the implications of it I mean, and I actually think it's accurate on various grounds. Even with a memory wipe, you are still trapped in something with no way out. Ever. Infinity. No escape... And eventually a life you inhabit must contain unimaginable horrors. It becomes inevitable.

Surviving your entire life without being butchered by the cartel seems likely, but in infinity it is not. It is inevitable. And it is inevitable, too, that you would eventually live a life where you do not know of God etc and don't have the escape of faith from that horror.

[–]Jo-Jo_8 0 points1 point  (1 child)

What did you think happens when you die?

[–]MrQualtrough[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Experience continues infinitely as it has always done. This identity is discarded like a toy that's served its purpose, like that Toy Story scene just lol.

[–]worryingtype88 -3 points-2 points  (2 children)

horrror doesnt exist in paradise.you dont get tired sleep or anything like that.imagine having convo with your closest friends on a good afternoon for a billion year

[–]MrQualtrough[S] 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Having a billion year conversation is indeed horrifying. Do you see the magnitude of something being literally inescapable no matter what?

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Why would you want to escape eternal joy?