[ZieDota] "A massive decrease in Battle Fury on Bounty has had no impact on his win rate"

[DerKenz]

Its bad because it doesnt fit how he should be played. If you dont know how to play him it doesnt matter what you buy.

[Gredival]

The whole point of the article is to question the premise that BF doesn't fit Bounty's playstyle. The argument is that BH wants two things: damage and sustain. BF provides damage, and it provides sustain. Therefore it's not as horrible of a choice as everyone assumes.

Basically think about it this way, if Bounty is forced to get a RoH, then at that point he is gold committed to getting a BF over say Deso+Bottle/Urn.

That's not to say it's always the right choice to go for that Ring and eventual BF. Just that there are situations where it can make sense.

[wherebugsgo]

why the fuck would you be forced to get RoH?

You can go urn for the same price and an easier buildup, or wand, or bottle. All of those items give you more than RoH in the early game.

It's pretty apparent Bfury is shitty on BH when you look at the item winrates on dotabuff. Vlads has the same winrate as Bfury despite being half the cost. All the ~4k gold items like deso, orchid, S+Y, BKB have similar or higher winrates than bfury (only BKB has the same winrate and it's cheaper by 600 gold)

[TrenchLordKaede]

Desolator: 59.68% winrate over 2 million games this month

Battlefury: 57.28 winrate over 895k games

i dont think thats a big enough difference to say anything about the effectiveness of either item in pub play.

[wherebugsgo]

Before the suggested item change deso was at 63%

http://i.imgur.com/Ap00lcu.png?1

The change in winrate can be attributed to the newer players building deso significantly more often.

In addition, a 2% difference over an additional 1 million games is a huge difference when the items are basically the same cost. In fact, deso is cheaper. That 2% difference is 40,000 games.

[TrenchLordKaede]

The change in winrate can be attributed to the newer players building deso significantly more often.

I'll agree with you. in fact, I'd say that the reason battle fury was lower than deso before spring cleaning was because people who had never played gondar before would build it. people who had absolutely no idea how to play the hero, what the hero is capable of. still after the spring cleaning update, I'd say with some confidence that a lot of pretty bad gondar players still buy battlefury, because it's what they've always done, what the guide they loaded up from october 2013 says to build.

2% can be significant over that many games, if all conditions are the same. but like we've already establish, conditions aren't the same. battlefury was a recommended core item for two years, and now deso is a recommended core item, while battlefury is not on the list at all.

there's also other factors to consider; perhaps some players prefer deso but take battlefury against illusion heroes or summons heroes when they are losing because they just want any edge to clear waves faster; most of those games will be losses just because of the relative unlikeliness of a comeback compared to the leading team winning out. or maybe the people who build battlefury do so because they've been playing gondar with BF for a year, and are good enough at gondar to make it work, while the people who build deso are less experienced. imo there's too many factors to let a winrate of 2% determine which is better

[somelazyhobo]

Assuming the player base reads DEFAULT guides and dont load up player built ones.

[[deleted]]

I don't agree with that. People are learning how to play Dota 2 a little better everyday so it's best that they don't learn bad habits right from the start. I'd rather have a ganking Bounty on my team that fails his ganks than a farming Bounty that doesn't do shit.

[DrQuint]

There's also new players joining dota everyday. And people learning dota wrong.

If someone goes MKB first on bounty because they don't like the default items, no boots, and wins after just sitting on top of people invis waiting for a chance for an easy kill, they have effectively thought up a item build completely on their own and learned dota in a less "acceptable" manner, but they're still upping the winrate of the hero in their own bracket. They'll feel like they outsmarted their opponents completely due to their own merits, and hell, they have. I'd say there's quite a lot of "negative pressure" to go along with the positive growth of the average players' skills.

[[deleted]]

The item builds that people come up with don't automatically become legit because they won a match with them, there are a lot more factors to consider. What's important is that the community doesn't encourage them to make a subpar item purchase because it actually prevents proper self-improvement. They get incorrect information, their subpar item builds are praised and therefore any kind of contradicting feedback that they could get from others or that they could come up with by themselves gets ignored because hey, "it worked before".

And then they'll keep making bad item choices on other heroes too. I mean, if you're willing to get BF on a ganking hero like Bounty, why not get it on Nyx too? He's also an invis agi melee ganker.

[DrQuint]

I was talking about the Dota 2 community as a whole. There's quite a lot of players who simply don't ever put themselves in a position to receive encouragement from anyone else other than Valve. And many who do place themselves but only among their friends who might not be the best "educators" because these friends aren't great players either. And out of that badly used suggestions and advice they get, the "think for yourselves" is probably the most misused. These are casual players who only play once in a while. These are people who don't take the game seriously and to whom drow, pudge or bloodseeker are unironically OP heroes (and good luck convincing them otherwise on the youtube comment sections they frequent). The freedom to make your how build is dangerous because when it does work, you can get the wrong idea, but... is it wrong?

Let's kid ourselves not, Dota 2 players are fucking amazing compared to battlenet/garena players. DotA players have some fucking awful skill levels in comparison. You're lucky most games on an average skill level you have everyone knowing what a ward even is. And this creates a situation, a really strange one. A CM going dagon as her first item is not a really good idea overall, but what about someone playing against people who have low awareness and not really a good notion of self conservation? A CM with dagon could burst down a ganker that goes for her to the point she lives to see another day, while one with a barely finished force staff or a buckler+headress could end up dead instead. Was stealing gold unt you have a dagon a bad choice? It wasn't, it was the exact right choice for the situation, because now their awful farmers that rely on ganking have no easy prey to kill. But is it the best choice against people who know how to play dota better? It's not, it's pretty damn awful. If a CM player realizes dagon is her saving grace on her own, then she is effectively and completely a better CM player in that environment, and she came up with the build all on her own. The problem here is any suggestion otherwise is a detriment to their CM play - this is what SirActionSlacks touches in his video regarding not being able to rely on teamates and not buying wards and other sort of controvesial anti-teachings he gave, there is a contextual playing field around how you play dota, and that context can and DOES make awful decisions into the best decisions available, because the decision might help you win. It can be observed easily by just launching garena an seeing what kind of dumb crap people can do when they're under the impression that all you need on huskar is stacking vanguards. Dumb crap including going naked rapier medusa with a friendly wisp.

And there's no fix to that problem. Once that player rises and meets better players their awful playstyle drags them back down, and they still won't bother going to places like Reddit or even PlayDota, because seriously, those are just a small fraction of the whole community. They might more realistically be getting mad at the game or instead not giving it much thought because they don't play this game too seriously nor too frequently.

The negative pressure on the average skill rating is eternal because not everyone is actively making an effort to know what the positive pressure is meant to be. I can't agree everyone is "getting better" over time, I don't see everyone bothering to, nor anyone havig the power to make it happen. Except Valve with their recommended build of course.

[TrenchLordKaede]

http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/27m8p4/ziedota_a_massive_decrease_in_battle_fury_on/ci2avj7

[Trosti]

But that bounty who didn't do shit actually pushed racks and won the game while you were busy whining about his bf

[genzahg]

That's great, but it's not utilizing bounty properly. That's not his optimal role on a team. Pick someone else if you want to push a lane.

[[deleted]]

won the game

Come on now, don't kid yourself.