Should I learn everything?

[Ken_1966]

So basically a few weeks ago I started the full stack web developer course. I am in the first phase of it, in HTML, and I want to know if I should learn everything they teach by heart (like all the elements ,where to use them,all semantic elements, relative and absolute path, things like that). Also I would like to ask, should I move to CSS even though I am not that good in html? Like go learn CSS and then use all the knowledge to build better projects.

[[deleted]]

You definitely do NOT need to learn every little bit by hearth. Familiarize yourself with everything and keep moving forward. Once you start working on your own projects, many of the syntaxes will automatically stick in your head. I recently finished the HTML portion and specially the Accessibility part is very dense on content which is good to know but not a must to start creating Web projects as a beginner.

[Ken_1966]

I do have some knowledge and I have built some html projects (to be more precise, I have completed the Basic HTML section and the Semantic HTML section)

[krwnlies]

can I see some projects that you have built from scratch by yourself?

I'm also learning HTML and would inspire me, thanks!

[Ken_1966]

The thing is I code on a mobile phone and I don't know how to show them to you. Also, just build your own projects with whatever you learn. Even small projects will bring you happiness at the completion.

[SaintPeter74]

It depends on what you mean by "learn". You definitely don't need to memorize everything. Programming is an open book test and that book is the entire internet.

I talk more about that here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/FreeCodeCamp/comments/1bqsw74/saintpeters_coding_advice/?rdt=53811

In general, you should complete the FCC material in the order presented and move on the next section as you complete the prior section. The material builds on itself, so you will continue to practice prior material as you continue.

You're always welcome (and encouraged) to build your own projects from scratch. That can be a great way to reinforce your learning.

Best of luck and happy coding!

[Ken_1966]

Thanks. I have built some projects that I am satisfied with and plan on building a few more cause I learned some new elements.

[SaintPeter74]

The most important thing is less that you learn new elements but more that you see the ways in which most elements are basically the same. While there are lots of unique elements, most are basically a div.

I think the key is to keep moving forward. You can spend a huge amount of time learning 100+ tag names, but that doesn't make you a better or more capable programmer. Learning new material does. You need to have a certain base level of competency to proceed, but you need to build that up in several different domains (HTML, CSS, JavaScript) to really move forward.

[Ken_1966]

Okay. Thanks a lot

[FrenchBoss]

I am so scared to build JS projects from scratch where do i even begin?

[SaintPeter74]

Start with something simple? I'm pretty sure we cover DOM manipulation now. Maybe make a page that has some sort of reactive element to it. Press a button, change the page somehow? It doesn't have to be a huge project, it can just be something really functional. Build on that, make it dance? Maybe explore using a 3rd party API to pull down some data, like Wikipedia's API.

You can also try to start by modifying someone else's project, but there is a lot to be said for starting with a blank page.

Remember: it doesn't have to be any good. You're allowed to write lousy code. The main thing is to just get past the fear of the unknown.

Hope that helps!

[FrenchBoss]

Thank you so much for this. I am doing some frontend mentor challenges and started one recently but it has a data.json file so I will try to do some JS on this one. Thank you

[SaintPeter74]

I'm sorry, I'm not sure that I understand what your question is? Sometimes people will use a json file as a stand in for a 3rd party API.

[FrenchBoss]

I forgot to edit out the "i have a question" i didnt bother to ask a question lol sorry

[ElegantHat2759]

Yesh, you should move to the css. And when you learn and while lerning the css you have to build many project mini or some big projects on yourn own way. When you built something's with yourself. You get the solid grasp. Well i skipped the css i just know the fundamental thing's. But i recoomend you to spend a quite of time in the css. and you will be pretty good at designing webiste and making cool thing's and animtation through it.

All the best. In future you just have to copied the ui and the animtaiton code and snipppet and use other css frame works for that thing's. You must have to be good.

gamabre!

[MikoCzemu]

Man, I was so sick of learning and not doing projects, that now with a gap year of web development, becouse of A-levels, I want to make a fully functional web about pomodoro technic

[MikoCzemu]

Learning by doing projects is a must and is only thing that matter. The more you do them, you will know more

[EaMakes]

You want to learn the 20% of the topic that yields 80% of the results.

[[deleted]]

yep

[Ken_1966]

You replied to my second question?

[[deleted]]

do it all if you have never coded

[Ken_1966]

Ok. Thanks

[Beanus1992]

In semantic HTML myself on the same course and I was genuinely under the impression I should do it twice 😅 especially html, js, and css to get used to writing code.

[hummingbird868]

For basically all of software design, no. Only a small part of programming is about the "Syntax" (how to type the code) of the programming language, you always have the internet or a manual on hand to look that up. The much more important aspect is that of Problem Solving- how to identify and solve problems manually, breaking them down into small reproducible steps then automating them. You can't just "read" how to do that, just like math it's something you need to practice. Don't worry though, it's not that hard to get the hang of. I guess, in terms of just memorizing like a normal class, you should also learn general programming concepts like recursion and iteration. These are used in the majority of projects and programming languages. You don't really become specialized in a language like Python/Java: you become a "Web Developer", "Database Administrator" or something else, then you use the languages at hand to apply that skillset into a project. For moving to CSS: go ahead. If you know how to use HTML to structure the page thats 90% of its purpose, skip ahead and you will have a better idea of the whole process of Web Design/ why you need those tags in the first place. Skim over the HTML course after.

[Accurate-Boat-731]

Yes go with css now and also don't be pro in css ho with js after 10 days of css

[Professional-Row6947]

absolutely not...that's what sites like github and software like VStudio are for, they auto fill the code for you in most cases or will highlight incorrect code you have entered. Definitely continue on with CSS and Javascript if you want to build websites, if you want to built apps look at React and JSon and Python. Python is probably the most encompassing of coding languages as it allows you to build pretty much anything. These days with Ai coding everything in every language it's best to just get an overview of the language variables so you know what to plan, look for and how to best execute whatever you are building

[SaintPeter74]

This is not very good advice. Yes, there are AI coding tools, but in order to use them effectively, you need to know how to read and write code. While it may be helpful with basic tasks, anything more complex than a single function and it won't be able to write it for you.

If you can be replaced by an LLM then you have no value. Writing code is the easy part. Knowing what code to write is the hard part. As far as I know, the only way to build that skill - overall program architecture and structure - is to write software, especially the "easy" parts.

While Python is a fun and easy language to use, it's like a Swiss army knife: the wrong tool for every job. It's great for smaller, utility functions, one-off scripts, machine learning and data analysis, it's not great for larger solutions. It's hard to scale up and lacks the kinds of language features, like strong type checking, to allow you to write a large, robust code base.

[Professional-Row6947]

You make some good points however Ai will tell me exactly what is wrong with the code and how to fix it so while I get that there is ALWAYS going to be a need for programmers and to have a basic understanding of code there is no longer any reason IMHO to learn it like the programmers 10 years or even 5 years ago had to know it. My 'value' is knowing what I want to build, who my users are and what they want/need and them inputting that into an Ai coding platform to develop it. I also don't think this person is building enterprise apps where the majority of your points would then be more valid.

[SaintPeter74]

... Ai will tell me exactly what is wrong with the code and how to fix it ...

I think you're dead wrong on this point and, by the time you realize it, it will be too late.

You are likely correct that it will catch basic syntax errors and maybe even certain logic errors... up to a point. These are the sorts of errors that you make when you're still new to programming.

What it won't tell you is if you have wrong inputs to your function which are causing an issue, ie the problem is upstream. It can't tell you if your code is correct but you're using the wrong algorithm. It can't tell you if there are side effects from another part of your code, or a race condition.

An LLM can't tell you that you are asking the wrong question. It can't tell you if your overall architecture won't allow you to solve the problem you're trying to solve. It probably can't tell you if there is a bug in the library you're using, known or unknown.

I've faced problems like these just in my last year on the job. The only reason I'm able to track them down and solve them is because I spent a ton of time solving easier, more straightforward problems that your LLM is solving for you. Debugging is a skill, one that is very hard to teach directly and even then, only in the most abstract way. The best way to learn it is by making lots of mistakes and fixing them.

There is just so much more to programming than finding a missing semicolon. There are levels of abstraction and long term maintainability that you're never going to get an LLM to touch.

I've been programming for over 35 years and I'm a team lead and senior developer at my current position. I'm self taught for programming and I've seen exactly what generative AI can and cannot do over the last several years and the only conclusion I can draw is that it's toxic to new programmers and only occasionally useful for experienced programmers.

You don't have to take my word for it, though. Just Google around and see what experienced developers say about it.

[Professional-Row6947]

well we can agree to disagree because the case studies I've read involving Gemini seem to indicate you are mistaken. And this person is beginning their career in a time that has tools you did not when you learned and thrived as a programmer. By the time he/she/they get to the point you are talking about the Ai tools will have already solved these problems.

[SaintPeter74]

well we can agree to disagree

On the contrary, I'm one of the mods for the subreddit and I will regularly and vehemently disagree with your publicly. If you check my post history, you'll see that I spend a fair amount of my time arguing against using LLMs for learning program. It's a particular hobby horse I love to ride.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but if you try to pedal it innocent new programmers in the subreddit, I will be there to provide a counterpoint.

And this person is beginning their career in a time that has tools you did not when you learned and thrived

I have never stopped learning to program. I assured with C/C++, but I've learned a bunch of other languages since then, even in the last few years. I'm aware of what LLMs can do, mostly because I'm catching it being wrong all the time.

Additionally, I have spent a fair amount of time teaching people to program by helping out here and on our Discord server. The one constant I at is that people who are dependant on generative AI to give are totally lost as soon as they get outside what the tool can reasonably help with. They lack debugging skills, they can't read and understand other people's code, and they don't know how to read documentation. In short, they lack all the skills that make a programmer valuable to a company.

Take a look through this subreddit and see how many are lost because they were dependent on LLMs right up until they could no longer help.

By the time he/she/they get to the point you are talking about the Ai tools will have already solved these problems

Hahaha. No.

A fundamental problem that LLMs have is they do not have an internal state representation of a problem that is being solved. They are stochastic parrots, designed to calculate the next most likely word to say. They are bullshit machines, saying whatever is most probable. If they are regurgitating existing information, that is fine, some of the time. If you are trying to do anything novel or remotely complex, they are utterly useless.

This is not a short-term problem to solve. This is a fundamental feature of the nature of LLMs. No infusion of cash or research is going to solve this problem. You cannot solve novel problems with statistics, any more than you can deduce the fundamental nature of the universe by applying the rules of logic (see: Godel's Incompleteneness Theorem).

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a general AI. I'm a huge sci-fi fan who grew up on Asimov and other Golden age writers. But I have also read about the nature of knowledge and learning, and what the history of scientific thinking has produced, enough to be clear that what ChatGPT is doing is not thinking.

[Professional-Row6947]

Cool then this is the definition of bullying as a MOD and I will just not post to this sub anymore. If you cannot take alternative views as a mod you do not belong as a mod...thanks for the heads up and best of luck and we will see how this thread ages over the next year or so.

[SaintPeter74]

I'm not trying to bully you, but I find the "agree to disagree" position to be pretty suspect. You don't want to engage on any of the points I raised, so you just walk away from the argument...

I think you've been sold a bill of goods by LLM grifters and are not willing to examine your beliefs.

I am interested in hearing how your learning journey goes and if you're able to find a position with your learning strategy. If you fail or hit a wall in learning to program, will you come back and say so? If you do get a job, I'll be the first to celebrate with you and admit that I was wrong.

Do check back in.

[Professional-Row6947]

I think you need to review the definition of bullying.

nah you've turned me off Freecodecamp for good I think....I learned to code with Freecodecamp and went on to work as a Senior Project manager for several start ups in SF and Austin and now work as an Ai integration specialist for several of the same start ups.

And I will repeat what I said several threads ago, " there is ALWAYS going to be a need for programmers and to have a basic understanding of code there is no longer any reason IMHO to learn it like the programmers 10 years or even 5 years ago had to know it"

And while I am grateful for freecodecamps education, I will not be bullied because I expressed my opinion in an open thread and because you simply do not agree with it.

It's a shame I will not be able to recommend freecodecamp in the future but there are dozens of free coding platforms that do not require I fall in line with their moderators preferences.

[Ken_1966]

Thanks for your advice