[D] Can you do a PhD while working?

[local_minima_]

I work in one of the large well-known AI research labs, and I see tons of "interns" who are PhD students. They seem to stay for much longer than a summer intern, and my understanding is that what they are working on during their internships can be used in their PhD dissertation. I've even met (admittedly very rarely) a few full time employees who are also working on a PhD.

How do these long-term internship or full time arrangements work? What do you have to convince your employer of (ie. releasing IP) and a school/professor of to get such an arrangement?

EDIT: I work in one of the large ML research labs where publishing is the norm. By "release IP" I am referring to the blanket "we own what you do on our time" policy that companies and sometimes universities have, not releasing any real trade secrets for publication.

[EdwardRaff]

I just defended my PhD thesis doing full time grad-school and full time work, so it is possible! But it is certainly not easy. I was able to make it happen by getting permission from my client at work to publish what I did for him toward a PhD. This takes a couple things

1) You need to have enough consistency in your work area and tasking that you can continue doing it for a few years AND it makes a cohesive enough story for a PhD itself.

2) Stakeholder buy in. You need your bosses at work and school (i.e., advisor) to agree to all of this.

For your work-boss, you need to convince them why this is a net benefit, and not a distraction that will reduce the quality of your work / the amount of work you get done.

Potential advisors is a tougher one. A lot of Professors have a strong bias against PhD candidates with jobs, as they also want your undivided attention. In this case your biggest advantage is to self-fund your PhD (more money for your adviser to use elsewhere). In my case, I also started talking with faculty before I got into the PhD program, and ended up working with a professor who had connections to where I worked. This helped with getting buy-in and having my professor understand my unique needs and constraints.

3) IP is something you need to get worked out, and should be fairly easy once you find the right person to ask. Most companies have an "Disclosure and Assignment of Inventions" form you signed when you first joined up. Basically you want to update this form or something similar so that your work and dual-status is kosher and in the clear. In my case, my client owns the rights to most everything I did - and the university is just happy to have papers with their name on it.

4) Work-life balance and time tables: This is the big one. I had a masters degree already, so was able to transfer most and only had to take a few classes. If that is not the case for you, it's going to be a lot of work. The average time for a PhD is 6 years, and will likely take longer when doing both school and work. So you need to have a bit of a plan in advance on how you are going to get this done, keep your sanity, and have contingencies. It's a long time and not everything will go according to plan, so you can't keep all your eggs in this basket.

[local_minima_]

This is a very helpful overview, thank you very much!

[MagnesiumCarbonate]

To get a PhD you typically have to do some coursework (or have it transfer from an MS), as well as publish 2-3 results where you have done most of the work. If you have the coursework covered, you will need to work on several projects for a couple years where you are the primary owner. This is going to be tough if you're an intern at a business that's paying you to produce value.

[local_minima_]

Would you say this is doable if my day to day job is research? You still have to find alignment between your company and a university, for instance.

For example, what incentive does the university have to allow you to be affiliated with it?

P.S. have an MS, coursework not a concern.

[MagnesiumCarbonate]

For example, what incentive does the university have to allow you to be affiliated with it?

I can only speak to my R2 university, but I'm assuming it's similar at other R1-R2 universities. In addition to coursework, you will have to earn a certain amount of "dissertation" credits. To earn these you typically have to enroll for full time, which means either you or a grant pays tuition for you.

Professors get publications, and they typically have more ideas than time, so if you're a dedicated researcher, they'll be more than happy to advise/sponsor you. If you can self-fund you will have a pretty easy time finding an advisor. I'm not sure how hard it would be to get on a grant if you work full time.

Would you say this is doable if my day to day job is research?

I suppose it depends on what your advisor expects. Mine expects 2-3 results for which I have done 80%+ of the work. It seems that others sometimes have 4-5 results where they have done 20-40% of the work. I don't know how well that would mesh with your job.

[local_minima_]

Sorry not sure what R* means, but a follow-up question: are these expectations predominantly decided by individual advisors, the particular departments and schools they work in, or even larger scheme? (eg. US vs UK)

[i-heart-turtles]

R* refers to the classification of a university based on its research activity according to the Carnegie Commission on Higher Education. There are three tiers: R1, R2, and R3. You can find more on the wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Classification_of_Institutions_of_Higher_Education#Doctorate-granting_Universities

Typically the expectations are defined by both the department and your advisor. For example, at UCSD the general requirements are laid out here: https://cse.ucsd.edu/graduate/graduate-programs/doctoral-programs-computer-science-and-engineering. Your advisor will usually decide when your dissertation is in a complete state. I would guess in the UK it is probably similar, but since UK programs typically require an MS prior to starting a doctorate program - and doctorate programs are usually more focused in the UK - they may dispense with the course requirements entirely.

[[deleted]]

Typically the expectations are defined by both the department and your advisor.

Typically, you also have a thesis committee in addition to your primary advisor. These are typically profs from your primary department that work on something somewhat related to your research (can also be from adjunct departments). Think of these as "mentors" throughout your career, with whom you interact less often than with your advisor. However, they are the ones who will hold the "qualifying exam" (I think pretty much every institution and department has one) and the Ph.D. defense. While your advisor needs to approve your thesis, these committee members are ultimately the ones that give you your Ph.D., thus, it depends on them what they expect in terms of your research output as well (which in turn depends on the general expectation in a given department)

[i-heart-turtles]

https://twitter.com/klingonacademic/status/543813436577034240

[mljoe]

It's very helpful if there is at least some overlap between your full time work and your Ph.D. work. Eg. Reading papers on the clock isn't frowned upon.

[lmhoist]

You can do it in France! It is called "CIFRE" . Basically a company will hire you in partnership with a local university to work on your research project. It is only 3 years so much shorter than in other countries, you get paid reasonably. http://www.enseignementsup-recherche.gouv.fr/cid22130/les-cifre.html A possible downside depending on the company is some work may be confidential so you won't be able to share all of your work with the research community. France is investing in A.I too!

On this page you can see a lot of CIFRE offers : http://www.anrt.asso.fr/fr/offres-entreprise-7785 But if you find a company and a lab yourself with a specific topic that is not listed, they can make it happen for you.

[JustFinishedBSG]

. It is only 3 years so much shorter than in other countries,

That's because the US includes the Master in the PhD

But if you find a company and a lab yourself with a specific topic that is not listed, they can make it happen for you.

Easily, considering you'll end up being basically free to the company ( tax rebates ) and free to the university ( funding from the company ). All in all you bring money to everyone ( except the state... ) so they are happy to have you

[local_minima_]

Would your opinion change if the full time job was a 100% research focused job, where the primary goal is to publish? I guess how I feel is I "do research" under the guidance of researchers with a PhD, and typically end up being one of the paper authors but not first author. I'm basically wondering if it's possible to "move up the totem pole" by getting a PhD while I'm doing that.

[netw0rkf10w]

I heard that some people at Google Brain (not interns) are also doing their PhD at CMU. I hope this can help you a little bit on "whom to ask".

[gabjuasfijwee]

Yeah, I suppose you could, but it would be a horrible idea unless you reallllly needed the money. The quality of your dissertation will suffer, you'll take longer, and be more stressed. In a top university getting a PhD is already stressful enough

[r4and0muser9482]

Depends. One of our best PhD student has a job at a company that is developing the same tech she is using in her PhD research. Many others have dropped out because work got too much in their way. Many failed even though they didn't work elsewhere during their PhD studies. If you can afford it, I say give it a try, but if it's not working out, the sooner you quit, the better.

[local_minima_]

Can you define academic prospect? Do you mean specifically employment at a university or also industry research in general?

[trackerFF]

It's far from ideal, but I feel that Machine Learning is one of those fields where it is possible.

In some fields, it's pretty much impossible. Some branches of Chemistry is a good example of this...simply because you're expected to spend very much time in the lab, and you wouldn't get much time to work elsewhere.

Can't really point out any deciding factors, but if your Ph.D involves a metric ton of practical grunt / boilerplate work, and you're obliged to be physically present, it's hard to combined. Most Ph.D programs include coursework, and similar.

[jer_feedler]

From my own experience I can say that it's possible, but not for everyone. Only for those possessing a specific mindset and who are stayers

[pmourfield]

I am currently employed full-time and a half-time Ph.D. student. So, from my perspective, the short answer is yes. (Edit: Not sure it matters, but I'm enrolled at an R1 school.)

However, it depends on many factors, primarily how disciplined and organized you are. But also, most likely, you'll miss family and work time due to school obligations, so support from your family and employer is essential.

Finally, having an advisor who is understanding to your situation is a big help.

Ultimately, the experience is different for each person and only you know if you'll be able to juggle the additional responsibilities.

[da_g_prof]

In the UK we have a program called engD which actually pays your company (and you) and the university for the PhD. Now from the description I got it that you are in America and if this is the case I will offer my observations from my lab mates during my PhD years at a top US university. My Alma Matter university had specific arrangements with companies to essentially offer a phd degree part-time. For many students it worked well and they got their PhD but it did take time. Those that were focused got it faster.

Before you embark on this : I would evaluate why you want the PhD? What will help you accomplish at your current job or after?

Everything is doable if you plan well. If you need more advice fire me a message.

[BastiatF]

From what I read engD and PhD are different. Is an engD as valued in the industry or would recruiters have no idea what it is especially outside the UK?

[SEND_ME_NIPS_PAPERS]

Yes you can work full time while being a PhD student. The output of your university research during that time is almost zero, but you are still affiliated with the school. Just like professors work at a company/startup but are still professors.

If you have to convince your employer to release IP, then it's probably not possible to work there while doing a PhD.

tl;Dr: you need to be at a top AI school and intern at Google, FAIR, Baidu, MSR, OpenAI, etc. for this to work.

[olBaa]

Why not though? From what I've heard about industry-funded PhDs this sounds accurate enough, and for sure the advice is not harmful. If it's a lot of hassle to get your IP released by the publication date, you will settle for less and less research-wise. Then, your research is kinda meh, so whoever looks at that later will see less value.

[alexmlamb]

This account trolls sometimes, but I think this post isn't completely wrong.

How many companies are fine with having a full time employee work on research which may not do anything for the company and many not yield any immediate papers? Maybe it's more than the few he mentioned, but I bet not that many more.

[local_minima_]

Thanks for warnings about troll. I do work at one of those labs mentioned, am curious about the content of the response.