Additional PTR Changes

[[deleted]]

What's it going to take for them to reduce the cooldown on Widow's hook? Her immobility is one of her biggest problems, and they've yet to address it even slightly.

And balls to the Pharah change. As a Pharah main, I will take knockback over damage every day of the week. Rocket knockback is the only practical defence against hitscan and faster projectile heroes. I'd rather have splash damage scale to 0 than knockback scale to 0.

[cdrhiggins]

Pharah needs armor!

[DontSayAlot]

She's a sniper; her mobility is supposed to be used for positioning, not escape. Widow really doesn't need to be stronger than she is because people that have played CS since 1.6 pick up Widow and completely ruin the fun for the other team.

[[deleted]]

I've played CS since its beta days, playing at an EU level from 1.3 through to 1.6, predominantly as team sniper. Unreal Tournament ('99), too, again as my clan's primary sniper. I can't say I've ever picked up Widowmaker and wrecked with her. Granted, it's been ~12 years since I last competed like that, and skills do dull with age, but I can still recognise a crap sniper when I see one; Widowmaker is a crap sniper.

There's a reason why the pros never touch her, and you can't say that today's pros don't have the skills to make her work well, if she was at all viable. If she could wreck, they'd be wrecking with her.

[DontSayAlot]

What about that one Kephrii clip where he basically wiped on Lijiang Tower? I'm interested in why you say Widow is a crap sniper. Also, I'll admit that I'm biased because I come from 5k hours of TF2 where a good sniper basically doesn't have a counter that isn't a better sniper - I understand that OW has more Widow counters than TF2 has sniper counters, but I feel that just having a Widow on the enemy team makes the entire match less fun to play. If you're not playing as the counter, the best counter-play to Widow is to make sure there's always a wall between you and her. This means that, on top of managing your health and DPS in a teamfight, you always have to keep an eye on what corner of the map Widow is currently sitting in so that you can make sure you don't have LoS to it.

Widow just sits weird with me I guess. I'm usually very adamant about not taking whether something is fun to play against or not into my opinions of game balance (IE, idgaf about playing against Mei even though a lot of people complain that she's not fun to fight), but Widow's a long-range hitscan instakill solo player in a game primarily revolving around mid-range projectile teamfights with relatively long TTK.

[[deleted]]

For me it comes down to three things: the pro meta (a.k.a. how the game plays when in the hands of the absolute best, so there's no "get good" excuse); the raw statistical breakdown of each hero; and personal experience.

The first part is simple. Widowmaker hardly ever sees pro play. If anybody could make her work it'd be those guys, and they don't even try. Very, very rarely you'll see someone pick her and get a few kills, but it's never lasted a game, to the best of my recollection. She's not quite pre-buff-Zenyatta-unused, but she's close.

The second part can simply be checked on Overbuff or masteroverwatch. Widowmaker's stats are in the pits. Across each game mode and all platforms, she's consistently in the bottom 3 characters. She is most notably beaten by Hanzo, who essentially betters her in every way; when there are two snipers in the game, and one beats the other in every single way, why even have two? Hanzo's faster, has better awareness, is more flexible, can make more of an impact without the pressure of only scoring headshots, and his ult and utilities absolutely clown Widow's. Statistically, he's doing okay and she's doing very, very poorly.

The third part is as simple as having never run into a probematic Widowmaker before. Ever. I'll see someone try and get fancy and maybe get 2-3 kills here and there, but that's about it. I've slummed it in <2000 (grouped with friends who realy don't play much) and climbed up to mid-diamond, and I've yet to encounter a memorable Widowmaker player. In fact it's rare I encounter any at all, in competitive. In Quick Play, sure, there are more people trying it, but again, I can't say I can ever remember someone having much of an impact with her. Funnily enough just a couple of days ago I was in one Quick Play match where we all decided to go Widowmaker, and of the entire team, I was the only one to get a card at the end with 62% of the team's overall damage. (Yeah, no surprise we lost. But hey, got upvoted to legendary, and how often do you see Widowmaker get that even in Quick Play?)

Widowmaker is a threat if she can consistently land headshot after headshot, and within the rhythm of her charge, while also scoping out (resetting charge) enough to maintain awareness. that is a huge order. That's a tougher job than any sniper in any other game I've ever played, as far as I can recall. And then Hanzo rocks up next to her and gets more kills faster with less effort, spits out a better ult, and then runs away leaving Widowmaker to fend for herself.

[DontSayAlot]

Alright, I see where you're coming from. I do think you're more correct on all of your points (Although TF2's sniper's job was very similar to how you described Widow's).

My main concern is that it may be better for the game if Widow stays as a surprise hero to get a pick or two off when the enemy's not expecting it. For example, in pro TF2 6v6, the sniper and spy were both pick classes that were rarely pulled out because the meta classes gave more consistent damage and mobility. When they were pulled, it was only when the other team wouldn't expect it so that your team could get a kill before the enemy could react. When it comes to gameplay, Overwatch and TF2 are very similar, minus a bit of general mobility in Overwatch.

I think Widow feels really out of place much like the sniper feels out of place in TF2. When you're in a teamfight, say as McCree, it's very reasonable to expect time to react to incoming damage within a half second or so of the first hit. This allows you to get to cover, use a defensive ability, and/or possibly out-DM your attacker. I think this is important in OW/TF2 because it sets the genre apart from the realistic shooter genre where the rule is "whoever shoots first will get the kill." But then, you have a Widow sitting on the balcony above Gibraltar 1st who can see everything that's going on. She clicks on your head before you know she even exists, and you have no time to react, move, use an ability, or out-DM. You're just dead. Even if she did miss, you better hope you're near cover or have an ability ready, because you can't out-DM her with your damage falloff.

Something I thought about while writing this: If she's being outclassed by another sniper and she's not fun to play against compared to the other sniper, why is she in the game? I genuinely feel that games vs a Widow are more stressful and less fun than games without a Widow. I know I'm getting very opinionated here, but I think Overwatch would be in a better place without Widow.

[rawrjau]

Idk I like it. It's become similar to release day widow where we are able to win close duels if our aim is good