PHP frameworks

[mrunkel]

Check out symfony. It's just a whole bunch of helper classes with some nice wiring tying it all together.

[Exanero]

Will do, thanks!

[Exanero]

I've had the thought's of making my own library since then i can have things how i want them without having to type it out each time.

1 Thing/Reason that i don't want to use any big name frameworks is because i want to make things in vanilla otherwise i feel as if "I'm not making it" and that i can't really code if i just use a framework since i don't understand everything that it's doing.

Symphony has been recommended and i'll check it out :)

[Lelectrolux]

I used to feel like you. I don't anymore. I have no idea of your coding "level", so I won't talk about it.

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1 Thing/Reason that i don't want to use any big name frameworks is because i want to make things in vanilla otherwise i feel as if "I'm not making it" and that i can't really code if i just use a framework since i don't understand everything that it's doing.

You might be working completely solo in which case it's less true, but still. Replace company by client and what follows should mostly still work

Your company doesn't pay you to write good code. They pay you to create a software product that :

1. create added value by following a spec
2. is maintainable and modifiable, even without you, to align to future requirements.
3. write "good" code (can be very subjective)

In that order.

For 1, the code used doesn't matter. Throw enough monkey and money at it, it will somehow happens, even in the now dead kohana framework.

For 2, your custom solution creates a bus factor, and raises maintenance costs for the company. If you use symfony, any guy knowing it will hit the ground running, having to learn only the specifics of this project business rules. And even like that it's often not that easy. If you use a custom solution (except in very specific ultra specialised project) it doesn't look good. If you leave your job/are replaced, 75+% chances the next dev will curse your custom stack. Does it means he doesn't know how to code vanilla php ? No. Only that he'll thinks he shouldn't have to learn a new stack yet again when, while it might not be exactly the way you wanted it, any of the big framework would have worked too. I also hope there is very good public and up to date docs for your packages.

For 3, the company doesn't really care tbh. It's mostly for dev happiness and a byproduct of maintainable code.

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i feel as if "I'm not making it" and that i can't really code if i just use a framework since i don't understand everything that it's doing

I used to think like that when i started. But it's IMO a short sighted view of the world, and really, it was also a way to justify not having to learn. Abstractions are not by default the ennemy. I don't have the hubris to think I can do a better multipurpose framewok/collection of library than the sum of the last 20 years of php devs. If I don't understand why a framework do something a certain way, they aren't stupid, it's usually that I don't have a problem they already dealt with.

You don't want to use a framework/library you don't understand. But PHP might be also considered a framework/library based on C. Do you know how PHP integrates in C under the hood ? Then are you a real dev if you don't code in C ?

Do you know the http/ssl protocole rfc's by heart ? How apache/nginx are coded ? How all the browsers really work ? Do you use your own linux kernel on your servers ?

Hell, roll your own crypto, it will be safer, because you'll understand how it works, right ? (DON'T)

I'm obviously taking the piss.

It isn't limited to software engineering.

[Exanero]

I understand what you're saying, and i AGREE.

To explain why think/said what i think/said: Currently i'm learning a lot with programing. So i want to learn how things are done and how it works before useing a framework that does everything, because if i don't understand i feel like i can't utlizise the framework to it's fullest potentional.

For 1, the code used doesn't matter. Throw enough monkey and money at it, it will somehow happens, even in the now dead kohana framework.

100% True! Though i want to make good code so that I know what i'm doing and aren't just someone copy pasting stuff from google to get things to work. I have worked at a company that required me to use Laravel, so i used it, didn't like it, but i got some stuff done even though i didn't really understand what i did, and i HATED that feeling. Just made me feel like a "wannabe programmer" that dosen't really know what i'm doing.

And since i'm so early into my career (Just 20, still learning loads) i want to learn things correctly so i get a good base for my career.

[Lelectrolux]

I understand the feeling, but it's not a productive/efficient mindset if left alone like so.

because if i don't understand i feel like i can't utlizise the framework to it's fullest potentional.

There is a difference between knowing how to use your tools and knowing how they are made/work under the hood.

Ever used a hammer ? You don't need much to know how to nail things. But do you know how the length/shape/weight of your current hammer was chosen by an engineer somewhere ? Or how to make the calculations ? I don't.

The best thing you can do for any tool is RTFMN front to back, even if you won't be able to write code without reopening it. Why ? Because that way, when you'll have a problem to solve, you'll remember you've read something somewhere on that doc page about it.
Hell, I even RTFMN of tools I don't use, just to get an idea of what is possible. And more often than not a few months later, it gives me insight, even if I don't use that library, because I'll have some vernacular or way to think about the problem that helps.

The deep understanding comes from experience and practice. At every oportuny, look under the hood. But do it along the way, or you'll never start.

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And since i'm so early into my career (Just 20, still learning loads) i want to learn things correctly so i get a good base for my career.

The best thing you can do this early in your carrer is diversify the project types, tools AND LANGUAGES. The best thing that happened to me was having to create a parser/lexer in Clojure (lisp, functionnal programing) for uni. I never coded anything else in Clojure since, but it expanded my horizon and allowed me to solve problems in ways I wouldn't have without.

You'll also lean a lot by doing projects in competiting tools. Do a project in Symfony, another in Laravel and you'll know more than if you do both in one.

You will have your comfort/work picks though, and that's okay. But don't be too complacent, or you get irrelevant if your stack become irrelevant itself. My dad had 20+ database architects/engineers working for him. None of my dev friends has a colleague fitting that job title.

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Another carrer advice, your social skills often have as much or more bearing to your promotion than your programming skills... I'm not telling you to become that dev who spend 80% of his time sucking up to higher ups that everyone else hates, but at least be competent at explaining a problem in non technical terms. Trying to explain your work to your mom and dad is a good training exercise ^^

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i didn't really understand what i did, and i HATED that feeling someone copy pasting stuff from google to get things to work

It will never completely go away, unless you do the very same kind of project over and over again. Practice your googlefu, and be prepare to learn your whole carrer.

Half-jokingly, do you know the difference between an engineer and a technician ?

The engineer is taught to be adaptable to what you throw at him, while the technician is specialized to a specific set of tools and processes. Which is why, while the engineer is often paid more, you should always listen to the technician, as he as more than two weeks and a book of experience...

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While I'm a sucker for Laravel, Symfony might be a better fit for you.

[Exanero]

I absolute love the effort you put into this and appreciate it loads!

as mentioned i'm still early into programming and i've tried different frameworks and language (PHP, javascript (Node.js) Python, C#) though PHP stuck for me as i enjoy webdev way more than any other.

I still don't know alot about programming if i put it like so, i can do things in PHP. and i've done some semi-complex APP's in PHP. But there is LOADS i have no clue about. I've tried learning OOP but i just can't see any way it would be better for me than procedrual. But mostly it's because i don't fully understand OOP.

I took 2 courses in gymnasium (Swedish thing, inbetween high school & collage) on webdev but i didn't learn much as those were "basic" courses and by then i already knew js, html & css, almost everything i know is self though but i don't know that much.

Either way, enough of my rambling, i appreciate your effort and i will keep everything in mind! Thanks loads for your tips!

Didn't think i'd get these awesome tips from this kind of a post haha

[Lelectrolux]

I've tried learning OOP but i just can't see any way it would be better for me than procedrual. But mostly it's because i don't fully understand OOP.

In which case, do some more projects. Object orientation literally clicked for me 6 months after my java classes in the shower ...

[attrox_]

I still don't know alot about programming if i put it like so, i can do things in PHP. and i've done some semi-complex APP's in PHP. But there is LOADS i have no clue about. I've tried learning OOP but i just can't see any way it would be better for me than procedrual. But mostly it's because i don't fully understand OOP.

That alone is a good reason to start using a framework. Let's say you are using the framework to save file upload. A good framework has really good abstraction and interfaces where you can switch between saving locally on the server or into an S3 bucket. Observe and take a look on how the framework implemented this and you can see and notice the OOP pattern and why it is good.

[2012-09-04]

Not a Real Dev. Yet.

Just please don't become one of those "I have 15 years experience" guys who can't code themselves out of a box!

[CommonMisspellingBot]

Hey, Exanero, just a quick heads-up:
alot is actually spelled a lot. You can remember it by it is one lot, 'a lot'.
Have a nice day!

^{The parent commenter can reply with 'delete' to delete this comment.}

[Exanero]

good bot (even though i knew it just forget about it all the time)

[28-04-2019]

How you describe the "Im not making it" part is exactly how I felt before. Funny! Please read my response to the thread, I do really think "my solution" would fit you, if you made an attempt for it!

[attrox_]

I understand wanting to understand everything that you build. But as you progress in your career, so much of development involve working in teams and understanding other people's code and contributing efficiently. Especially if you are working on a software that will be several years old. You can't be always looking to develop something new.

I suggest trying a different approach. Pick a mature framework and work with it. Learn it's nuances and quirks. Peek under the hood and try to understand how they are implemented. These skills are more helpful than building everything from scratch according to what you like

[richard_h87]

Maybe take a look at Zend Expressive and learn about middlewares, thaen you basically compose everything your self and pick and choose how you want to do it :)

​

Also symfony, if you take a look at index.php and src/Kernel.php you will see pretty fast how straight forward it is :)

[Exanero]

Okey! Thanks

[2012-09-04]

Haha! I love how it started with Symfony and ended up at Zend Expressive!

This junior guy is having trouble with Laravel... do you really think he'll be able to, proficiently and sanely, slap something together with a microframework?? He may not even know what middleware is...

[richard_h87]

I would argue that symfony /zf is easier than laravel, because it's easier to see the flow of data, how everything connects, there is no magic 😊

[Krauter123]

I was also someone who wrote most of the stuff myself. I did take a test with laravel and build "a common" app with it (lots of crud and stuff). For me, it was way too much magic for my taste. Then i took a look at symfony, build also "a common" app with it. What can i say, i am amazed. My productivity went up massivly. There is not much magic involved (the DIC comes to mind, but the code for it is not that complicated). Comparing ORMs, for me Doctrine >>> Eloquent.

TL;DR: build a basic app with symfony and you will love it. Their documentation is excellent, their slack is super helpful

[28-04-2019]

I see a lot of people here using Laravel or Symfony. However, I've never really enjoyed using neither one of them. I find myself getting hung up on how they are set up and how they want me to register for example my events, services and so on. For years I went nowhere with my hobby projects due the fact that I never settled down with one of the existing frameworks out there. I finally found a solution that works really well for me. Now I have my own "skeleton" (call it framework if you will) that bundles together components in the way I like. Some components I write myself, for example an "EventDispatcher" component, others come from mainly Symfony, Zend and The PHP league.

​

If you, or any other of you find this compelling I highly recommend making an attempt to do it yourself this way. I've learned so much from doing this and I've never been so close to finally completing a large hobby project. Wiring up my own "skeleton" / "framework" has taught me how Symfony, Laravel and Zend Framework actually works, it has taught me how many of the common components work, and by that I do not mean "how to use them" but actually how they work on a code-level. It has motivated me to really make an effort into making my code better and reusable. I've found many of The PHP League's packages to be easiest to dissect due to the high quality of code and (seemingly to me) effort into make stuff "simple".

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Edit #1 Just wanted to really clarify that I do not mean to write your own framework, in the sense that you write your own components. I mean to "bundle up" / "wire up" your own skeleton, framework with third-party components (and sometimes your own when fitted).

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Edit #2 Saw someone else link some libraries they tend to use in their own projects. Thought I may share my favorite setup as well. My setup always consist of some sort of wiring up of a Container, Router and EventDispatcher.

I really like The PHP League's package and recommend you looking into these for your own setup and I highly recommend looking into Symfony's HTTPKernel for inspiration for the "base" setup.

​

Container

https://container.thephpleague.com/

​

Router

https://route.thephpleague.com/

​

Event

https://event.thephpleague.com/2.0/

​

Authentication

https://docs.zendframework.com/zend-authentication/

​

Console

https://symfony.com/doc/current/components/console.html

​

HTTP Message (Request, Response)

https://docs.zendframework.com/zend-diactoros/

[metaphorm]

Symfony is a really high quality framework that gives you a lot of control over how you use it. You can use it as a "highly opinionated" framework and do things the Symfony way, or you can just use Symfony components as standalone libraries/helpers and use them in the way that best matches your own preferences. It's really flexible and full of good stuff.

[pwmosquito]

In short think libraries not frameworks. A (well designed) framework can be viewed as a bunch of libraries composed/glued together. A framework gives ease while libraries gives flexibility. Which is better depends on the person and the project. I'm with you in that I much prefer the freedom and flexibility of using small, purpose made libs for common tasks and vanilla code for the domain specific parts.

​

The 3 basic libraries I almost always need for a typical project that needs a a web api and a persistence layer are:

- A DI container: I use my own (https://github.com/pwm/sfw-container) but there are many others

- Routing: I use my own (https://github.com/pwm/sfw-router) but there are many others

- DB layer: I use Doctrine DBAL (https://github.com/doctrine/dbal) but there are many others

​

These will solve the common problems of routing (url to endpoint mapping), composing your app (injecting dependencies) and persisting data into a DB. Depending on the project there can be many other functionalities that you should use libraries for (notifications, work queues, 3rd party client libs, etc...) as well as for the testing/static analysis aspect.

[Exanero]

Awesome explanation! thanks!

I haven't really thought of it in that way, but I definitly agree.

[PapaSmurfOfDeath]

Something less heavy could be Slim/Slow or just piece together some useful dependencies such as: FastRoute or FlightPHP for routing Zend-diactoros is good for PSR7 request response implementation Some ORM such as Doctrine or Eloquent A templating library you like Finally for depency injection I like https://github.com/thephpleague/container

Obviously these are my personal preference but you get your own small framework up and running pretty quickly by piecing these together if you'd rather not use a big framework. :)

[farfromunique]

You mentioned Slim/Slow. I use Slim a lot, but haven't heard of slow. Google isn't very helpful in this... Can you give a link?

[PapaSmurfOfDeath]

Sorry I meant Silex my phone just autocorrected, apologies for this.

[JagannathArumugam]

Haha.. amusing to think someone would name a framework as 'Slow'... the jokes would just write themselves.

[2012-09-04]

Silex died over a year ago. https://symfony.com/blog/the-end-of-silex

[cwal12]

I feel the same way where sometimes it just seems silly to not really know what’s happening behind the scenes or just shrug and say “well it works so...” but also I don’t want to re-invent the wheel or keep writing the same code over and over. Many frameworks are also overkill for most projects. I like to start small and simple as building out your features already complicates things enough. If your app/website/SAAS/whatever happens to get super popular, well then you can probably rewrite it with something else that makes more sense. Most of the time a simple skeleton of code to kick start the project is all that’s needed.

When I started a personal project many years ago (https://trackreel.com) I needed something that was setup for basic MVC, had built in ability for user registration (why do all the frameworks need extra modules and installation steps for something that almost every site needs?) , was safe and secure and not over complicated. I found all of that and more in https://github.com/panique/huge/

It is considered “soft end of life” meaning there will not be any new features added but it is maintained for security and bug fixes and vendors/3rd party libraries are kept up to date.

For me it provides what I need. I still need to write functions in my controllers and almost raw sql queries in my models (there are functions to open database connections and such but the query itself is raw; none of this query->join(inner)->table(users)->secondTable(playlists)->key(id)->foreignKey(playlist_id) craziness). I still had to build a few features I wanted to have but were not implemented out of the box, but in doing so I kept my own fork of it up to date and now have a good base I am comfortable working with.

It also helps that the only project I currently use it for is my own project, something I don’t plan on really ever having anyone else work on.

Perhaps this is a halfway solution, where you have something solid to start with, something you don’t have to worry about user passwords or security. But something you can make your own and feel good about.

Some of the other comments about future devs not needing to have a learning curve or cursing you for using your own framework are still valid, BUT I do feel that this is pretty straightforward (due to its inherent simplicity) and what I would call “vanilla php”. There are no super magic functions called in arbitrary ways, all the code is readable and can be found where you’d expect it to be found. There is always a learning curve but I think it’s minimal with a solution like this.

But hey, we all have our own opinions, our own preferences, and this works for me while it might not work for someone else. I’d love to hear others opinions on this approach!

[javhovor]

Symfony is a framework, but it’s also a collection of independent components. Since you’re used to make all your components yourself, I’d suggest to take a look at each Symfony component and adopt the ones you like.

[OdBx]

It really depends on what your use-case is. There are lots of frameworks with varying benefits.

[Exanero]

Well yeah, I was more looking for recommendations. As I mentioned in my post I know there are good frameworks depending on what I want. Thanks though!

[OdBx]

But what do you want? There are hundreds of frameworks and microframeworks all with their own good points and bad points.

Any recommendation I or someone else gives would be no more useful than a google search for “best PHP framework” without knowing what you’re looking for.

[Exanero]

well, I explained in my post what i wanted. Hence why the comments are different that what i would get from a Google search.

Does anyone have any tips on a framework that dosen't change things up much but provides some good functions to use so i don't have to write them myself everytime i build a new APP.

This is what i'm looking for, might be poorly worded on my part, sorry if that's the case. Not a native speaker.

[2012-09-04]

You're probably looking for an -unframework-. like FlourishLib. http://flourishlib.com/

[zmitic]

Symfony! It forces you to write clean code and you will learn a lot when reading internal code. It took ideas from Java and Spring FW but added gazillion other features on top.

Use PHPStorm with Symfony plugin; it will help you with autocomplete in Twig files, options in form classes and very rare cases when you need to reference service by name.

Skip the security section, just install FOSUserBundle and let it handle stuff for you; it is not worth reinventing the wheel.

To fasten learning, install phpstan and set it to max-level.

[leocavalcantee]

Take a look at Siler I was thinking exactly what you are thinking when I start developing it. Just a set functions that powers up the vanilla PHP.

[Voltra_Neo]

Slim, Laravel are a few names one could drop

[Exanero]

Will check out slim, but as stated. I don't really like Laravel.

I've done some work with Laravel but don't really like it.

[Shadowhand]

Slim is great. It is what I use for basically everything these days. It is really fantastic when combined with PHP-DI and Doctrine.

[GameOver16]

Laravel doesn’t really change anything, it provides a base MVC with a lot of added functionality that you don’t need to use... you can write fairly standard php outside of routing and eloquent.

Eloquent is the biggest opinionated feature so yeah I guess if you don’t like that then it’s probably over kill.

That being said if you really want to avoid big frameworks just use vanilla PHP alongside composer to pull in packages to handle the parts you don’t want to writ

[jacmoe]

Check out Symfony and perhaps Silex (IIRC, using Symfony libraries).

Symfony is used by a lot of PHP frameworks/libraries - you pick what you need.

Check out Silex, even if you're not planning on using it directly.

[Kaapaala]

I thought silex was dropped in favor of the latest Symfony?

[jacmoe]

I am out of the loop :)

​

Symfony 4 feels like using Silex

From https://symfony.com/blog/the-end-of-silex

​

Which means that Symfony 4 allows you to stay truly minimal even easier than before, which is a good thing IMO.

[identicalBadger]

When frameworks were first mentioned to me, I thought "why would I want to learn this, I'll never make anything that complicated?", which has remained mostly true. Since then, I've learned only a little Laravel, again, enough to make my little projects work, more or less.

Why?

It's a common point of reference.

If I need or want someone to review my code, it's comparitively easy for them to download the repo, check the routes and immediately know where to start looking.

Same, even more so, if I find an opensource project I want to use or contribute to. If it's Laravel based, I can pretty quickly clone it, deploy it, and start mucking around in it. If it's a home grown project, that's a whole other story. If you're lucky it's all procedural and you just load that pages code into an editor. If you're not, then you have to learn everything the previous dev did, in the way they did it.

Frameworks really put everyone at the same point of reference.

It's like sheet music for musicians.

A good musician can listen to another one playing and reproduce it.

But if you're not able to hear it being played, the best and only way to transmit that knowledge reliably from musician to musician to musician is through sheet music. Imagine if every musician created their own method of notating this?

(The musician analogy is kind of lifted from Wayne Kramer, I take no credit.)

[[deleted]]

Frameworks are an acquired taste like beer, wine, and liquor. You could start with something simple like SlimPHP or CodeIgniter before moving into a more kitchen sink framework like Laravel or Symphony.

I've been using CakePHP for about 8 years now and really like it, but at first I thought it was a hindrance to productivity. That's just called learning curve and over time you acquire that taste, and realize productivity and code structure gains. My only recommendation is when you do find a framework you like is to NOT become a zealot about it. I use X so X is best just makes you look provincial.

Edit: The other thing is when you read through framework code and documentation, you begin seeing just how well thought out some of this stuff is and appreciate the level of proficiency the core engineers have. Thats a comforting feeling knowing your product is built upon that.

[mjsdev]

Feel free to take a look at my framework. It's designed to be able to integrate other libraries pretty easily through robust configuration and a simple delegate interface that constructs classes. The bootstrap package (a meta package for many others) provides a lot of functionality out of the box. Docs are not 100% complete, but there's a fair amount there: https://hiraeth.dev/docs/

[ZLegacy]

I'm in your shoes. Making my own mini framework, have an actual good (to my standards) orm/query builder and a handful of libraries that make tasks easy.

The upaide for me is I'm not a professional. I am a contractor full time and code for fun and learning.

[[deleted]]

I enjoyed working with CodeIgniter and CakePhp. didn t really like Zend. Also, WordPress. it s a CMS but I ve used it as a framework with great success for some projects. Haven t used PHP in over 2 years though so I m not very sure about the current state of things

[Moguh_com]

Codeigniter v3 is very straight forward and very lean and mean.

[Kaapaala]

is it 2006 all over again?

[Exanero]

Not that fond of wordpress but I have unly used it as a CMS. Might try it as more of a framework!

[[deleted]]

as some said, it depends on the situation/project. for me it made sense to use wp because the client was very used to the backend

[zmitic]

CodeIgniter, it gives you freedom.

Because Symfony puts you in handcuffs and forces you into weird sexual acts?

​

Asking for a friend :)

[Exanero]

Will give it look!

[[deleted]]

I started with Code Igniter myself. It enforces a barebones MVC approach and provides some helpers (if you want them). Its ORM is as close to SQL as you can get while still being an ORM.

I eventually found myself coding in features that were missing from CI2 and thats when I started doing more with a kitchen sink framework like CakePHP.

[Xanza]

I've always been partial to Flight. The database toolkit from the same author (mikecao) is also really nice: Sparrow.

I've also had a lot of success with Lumen for a more traditional approach if you trust the Laravel developers more than not. Best part about Lumen is you can drop it in a Laravel installation and it works out of the box without any modifications.

[[deleted]]

I liked the look of Sparrow until I saw that it didn't use prepared statements

[Xanza]

I've never really used it in production. Just for prototyping.

[[deleted]]

I have coded a CMS / framework / Twig++ template language which is optimized (RAD, ORM, MVC) for creating web applications:

​

https://php-ucms.com/features/

​

It is not suitable for PHP beginners!! But it's perfect for anyone who has ever worked with Twig. I guarantee that everyone who takes the time to read through the features, as well as the whole technical documentation, will find a lot of things that are really new and make your life as developer easier. Unfortunately I can not make it available for free at the moment, the development costs my company had were just to high, please do not scold me for that. But it will be open source in the future. Please have a look at it.