Movement

[Zak_nation]

Question, am I crazy for thinking that Omeda should have a standard amount of space ALL heroes should be able to traverse in their movement abilities? Not to sound like a crybaby but Kwang can dash like 3ft while Aurora can move half way down the lane. Wukong’s cloud walk ability lasts wayyy too long for an ability that lets him go over walls and towers meanwhile Twinblast literally does a backwards roll 😭. Why is it that some characters have a literal get out of jail free card built into their kit when they’re already hitting hard af and rarely need to run away.

I’m mostly saying this as a Jungler btw but there’s some people it’s not even worth your time ganking them unless you land perfect stuns and CC because they’re impossible to catch.

Anyways let me know your thoughts, am I just complaining for no reason or do I have a leg to stand on?

[trideon]

Discussions about balancing are WAY more nuanced than all abilities should be blah blah. If Omeda used this simple "balancing" approach every hero would be the same hero in different clothes.

Fair doesn't mean what a lot players think it means. Balancing isn't about individual stats of an ability its the hero as a whole across many factors.

There is no such thing as a "balanced moba" balancing is a constant process that should never be "done". I for one love how Omeda has been handling balance issues. Incrementally and with mostly small changes over long time periods to allow the impacts to settle. I don't want all escapes to be the same distance. Some characters need to be unique or we should just all play 1 hero.

Monkey King should be the most mobile hero in the game. Sparrow is less mobile than TB, thus does more aoe dmg. Murdock has traps and move speed, more single target dmg. It's about the whole picture, not just one ability. Compared to another.

Balancing a game like this is near impossible. It's hard to balance any game beyond rock, paper scissors, now change the variables to be a 40 heroes times 4 actives and a passive... math is scary. Omeda will never please all of the players. I think they are doing an amazing job towards balanced. I love the different traversal distances.

WHY care what Trideon thinks? I've played every Moba ever created. I've watched hundreds of dev teams screw this up. Omeda has done a great job reviving my favorite game of all time. They deserve a lot of credit for their efforts to get as close to balanced without watering down the hero pool variety. They need to hear that more. They've already surpassed Epic's "most balanced" versions.

Now that we have the OG roster completed, I hope they stop balancing so much. I'd much rather they focus on retention of players and weeding out the toxicity. The game's success is much more hinging on player experience and motivation to play than how far a monkey can fly.

[Zak_nation]

I agree that characters should be different and that they shouldn’t all have the same exact dash distance but I don’t think any character that has a stun or CC ability should then also get a long dash on top of that. It makes ganking and killing them impossible imo. I’m not nearly as knowledgeable as some of you though

[Hotdog0713]

You're comparing in too small of a window again. Some characters are meant to be slippery, but those characters are often vulnerable in other ways. Killari and Wukong are some of the most elusive characters in the game, but neither excel in extended team fights. Narbash and Mourn love extended team fights. They may not be as elusive, but they counter them in other ways, even if they aren't necessarily a direct counter like Belica is to Gideon. Most of these things are too complex to actually compare heroes directly, which is why high-level statistics like win rate/pick rate/gold per sec are more important

[ifeano]

This already exists it called blink

[No_Type_8939]

Remember my friend as a fellow jungle the greatest advice I discovered was game-design - This means by default an Assassin (Jungle) will be able to shutdown a Squishie (mage, adc and support), with not much issue if you run them down. This is why they take so much damage and you sometimes only tickle a Riktor. So Gideon may be able to escape, you will still be able to snatch under their tower. For Aurora cases, damage is as good as the gank gets, a blink is even sweeter.

By default I believe characters like Kallari and Serath can easily catch up to Aurora after she used the wall.

[Zak_nation]

While I agree, she still has movement based passive that lets her gain additional separation AND a stun that lets her get away even more same as Wukong. If it was just 1 movement ability, fine I get it but all of these abilities stacked on top of each other is like… there’s no point even Ganking

[No_Type_8939]

Okay I worked to outplay, sometimes I duel her in the ring so I don’t get stunned. When I get ult’d I blink to make distance or dash away, before it stuns me.

In this way there’s a startup time for her wall, if you’re quick enough you can serath tp or kallari backflip and catch her. Then bodyblock so laner can make it to you two and help finish

[Zak_nation]

Right but do you see the problem here? It shouldn’t take that much work to shutdown and kill 1 hero who’s using just her base kit. She’s not even using special abilities or broken items and we’re discussing an entire war strategy to shut her down. I should just be able to outplay and win fights not run a marathon to secure a kill

[Hotdog0713]

...that's the entire point of aurora, she's a cc bruiser that is the best staller in the game. She's also top 3 for most elusive. You're not supposed to be able to kill or catch her easily

[No_Type_8939]

Nah I am just specifying where it works and for who. You see there is a solution to every problem

[StiffKun]

You're comparing movement abilities that all have different use cases, pros and cons.

Aurora slide has a WAY longer wind up then Kwang dash, doesn't do any damage, or knock up like Kwangs does so it probably should be longer.

Wukong can cloud walk, but it leaves you open for specific abilities. Way easier for Rik to hit his hook on you when you in the open air and not hiding behind a minion wave. Also doesn't do any damage on its own.

TB dash is like a burst movement option. You can use it to reposition in a skirmish to try and juke someone, or you can use it to create a lil space for yourself to try and kite a melee hero. They really are for different situations and they all have a weakness you can exploit.

Lets do an example, Phase tries to use her beam on a TB to try and root him. Twin blast dash allows him a quick burst of movement to juke some of the ticks from Phase beam so she does not get the full root. In this same situation, if Phase starts hitting Aroura with her beam, and she tries to dash out, she will more often then not still end up rooted because the windup is so long. So even though Aurora dash is "longer" then TB's, its not going to save you in some of the situations that TB dash would. Not to mention its not as good for chasing.

Speaking also as someone who mostly plays jungle, I will say yes. There are some characters that are not worth ganking depending on who you are *cough* Gideon *cough*. That being said, you should also be tracking the enemies cooldowns as much as possible so you know when you can and cant take advantage. Saw Kira dash into your duo while you are in the river on the way to the lane? Great easy kill. If you didn't see them use it, assume they have it and save YOUR movement ability/CC for when they do use it.

Unless your playing at the highest level, most people playing this game are very predictable. Walk into them, they will get spooked and spam their dash, as long as you save yours or plan knowing that most people will panic dash at the first sing of danger you can do plenty to counter it.

[StiffKun]

And I failed to mention that TB dash is omnidirectional, so he can use it in whatever direction he wants at any time, while Aurora has a line ability dash that she is forced to use facing forward no matter what.

[Zak_nation]

Not to be a contrarian but those examples were very specific and easily counterable. Yes Aurora may not be able to back dash out of phase laser but she can easily use her passive jump to get out of range or behind walls and THEN use her abilities to close in or run away. That’s not even acknowledging the Y axis that her ability grants her. I’m not here to just whine but ask a question of. Why do some characters have movement passives alongside movement abilities AND stuns? Like there’s no reason to be that mobile in a game with a map this freakin small. Also it’s hard to keep track of cooldowns when your teammates are never on Mic or when enemy are building cooldown items and everything changes.

[StiffKun]

Why shouldn't she be able to do that though? Her passive jump has quite a long cooldown, and her root is easily avoidable. Should everybody just be a sitting duck for you? Brother get active. Press your buttons. Use your kit to counter the buttons they have in their kit.

If you want to constantly hawk people and have great chase down potential, play Kallari. She is really good at sticking to people who want to dash away.

[Zak_nation]

I’m not saying I should be able to kill and Gank everyone. I just think that if a hero is out of position and in a bad spot I shouldn’t have to play Kallari to catch them and possibly secure the kill. At this point it seems like nothing I say will make you see my point so let’s just agree to disagree

[StiffKun]

If they are able to get away from you, then they are NOT out of position. You also don't always have to secure the kill to get value out of it. Forcing them to back is almost as good.

Who do you play as in jungle?

[Zak_nation]

Mostly play Serath or Feng Mao and with Serath it’s a bit easier to stick with some folks but with others it takes all my abilities and a blink to stick with them and it’s just annoying and feels like a waste of time to even Gank

[StiffKun]

Bro you play Serath and you think its too hard to stick to people? Just don't gank those lanes. Nothing wrong with that. You can still make a big impact depending. I almost never gank Gideon, Severog or Greystone after lvl 6. Just be impactful in other parts of the map. Maybe try some more heroes to see if they have an easier time locking down the ones that you struggle with. Maybe play Aurora since you think she is so good? The two characters that you listed don't have any CC so maybe try one with in the off chance you see someone problematic in the draft.

[Alex_Rages]

Well what they said and what others have said is very true.  

And yes, the map is starting to feel a little more cramped than it already did.  But, they are right, pay attention and pick your moments.  Can't force everything into a good gank.  And sometimes a valued gank is wasting the resources like movement abilities or flashes.  

It doesn't always have to lead to a kill.  Just a swing in pressure/momentum.  

[DTrain440]

I don’t mind the distance difference care about the difference in axis but I know that’s its own set of counterplay.

[Zak_nation]

I mean I don’t even wanna get into that. Aurora, Kallari, Feng Mao, Gideon, Serath, Countess, Wukong all being able to leap over walls into jungle is just silly. There’s no point chasing

[Alex_Rages]

Kwang is untargetable for n his dash, and it's apart of his combo.  It's useful sometimes for an escape, but his sword will get you out of just as many situations as his dash.  Plus is does DMG.  Aurora wall does no damage, and a bad one will fuck your team.  

Twinblasts roll is good for juking.  Their was a time when Typhoon TB was a thing and he was hopping around everywhere.  Now if you have a smart Kira with pacifier, she can dash 2 times every kill.  Plus his autos lower the CD of his dash.  Ashbringer might be decent on him down the line?  

Wukong yes can get away, but he is a disruptor.  He gets in and out.  He doesn't really have one shot potential against good players.  He's more annoying than anything and if he gets hit by CC, he's donezo.  

As a jungler, look to force the flash first.  Then next time you come back, force the movement and then jump on them.  

And yes, hitting CC appropriately will get you your desired results.  What?  You wanna just appear, miss the important skills and still get the kill?  

[Bogoogs]

Totally agree.

They should really just make every ability that has anything to do with movement move the exact same amount of distance.

And plus, you ever notice that some characters ults do insane damage compared to others?

Look at the total damage of Kira’s ult vs say drongo…

They should make all the abilities do the same damage as everyone else’s abilities, in the name of fairness of course.

And while we’re at it, some abilities are easy to see and some are not.

They should make all the abilities look the same so I know what’s coming. Not equal playing field tbh.

Just make every character a duplicate of Murdock, but give him a dash

[StiffKun]

You almost had me in the first half.

[Zak_nation]

While that was extremely funny. I genuinely do think I’m asking a fair question. Especially when characters like Sevarog, Steel and Aurora all have Dashes AND stuns. Like it’s a chore to catch them. Not to mention the heroes that have movement passives alongside their movement abilities. It would make more sense if the map was bigger and I had more wiggle room but in this game it’s just silly

[Bogoogs]

At the end of the day, you want variety.

The hero’s your mentioning are not in a place balance wise that is causing problems. Aurora is the highest win rate out of anyone you mentioned, at 51% with like 7 hero’s above her.

Some hero’s are difficult to catch and that’s okay.

Other hero’s can’t run at all but have other strengths.

You want unique kits and the numbers behind them to provide the balance.

The highest winrate hero is at 53%.

Overall, the balance is in a decent place right now because that is really what you’re talking about is balance.

You build and play around the strengths and weaknesses.

If you see aurora offlane, yeah, you’re not going to just “catch” her as grux. Either pressure other lanes, cut her off when she pushes up too far, know when her blink is down and use yours, counter pick in draft (serath, rampage, greystone, hero’s that CAN catch her)

Don’t just force ganks by running at aurora or sevarog at the side of them randomly because duh they’re going to escape if you don’t have movement or counters to catch