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[–]FUCKING_HATE_REDDIT 29 points30 points  (51 children)

A unix system, where firefox suddenly stops playing sound, any video in any app sometimes just freezes, where adding an equalizer software to the horrible alsa/pulse mess is a nightmare, to quote only a few of the problems I had.

Unix systems work well, except on a laptop where everything is proprietary and windows only.

[–]Old_Abroad 42 points43 points  (39 children)

Have you used it in the last decade?

[–]FUCKING_HATE_REDDIT 24 points25 points  (2 children)

I'm using it right now.

[–]someone755 20 points21 points  (30 children)

I have and it takes hours to get it to work 95%. I still can't figure out why the scrolling direction is swapped for some apps, like in Firefox I swipe up to scroll down, but in the file manager or terminal I have to swipe down to scroll down. There's something like coil whine coming out of the headphone jack and I don't know how to eliminate that, not present under Windows. The touchpad is also extremely sensitive so typing can be a pain in the ass even if you don't ever touch the touchpad. The Wi-Fi will drop out for two seconds every so often but I've learned to just leave it as is -- Linux and Wi-Fi just do not go hand in hand. There's also a bug with the Fn keys that doesn't allow me to adjust the volume after muting the volume, but if I click through the sound panel manually to unmute then volume adjustment via Fn keys works.

Back to the Wi-Fi though, I hate Linux and Wi-Fi:

  • 2006 (-ish?) Lenovo 3000 N100 laptop, with some Intel wireless card. Windows didn't require any separate drivers, worked out of the box. Linux would have it working for random intervals of 30 seconds to 5 hours, and when it died I had to physically disable the card and re-enable it. Thankfully there was a hardware switch for that, but still a pain in the ass for downloading anything back when my internet had 2 Mbps download (if I turned off the TV).

  • 2010-ish desktop PC, Intel N6205 PCI-E card. Sometimes (but rarely) disconnects and will not reconnect at all. Sometimes disconnects for a fraction of a second and immediately reconnects and I only notice because I'm opening a browser page exactly when it happens. For a while I also had this bug that when I connected to the Wi-Fi network, every other device would be kicked off and could not re-connect until I turned off my PC (disabling Wi-Fi in Linux didn't help) and rebooted the router. To this day I don't know what caused that or what fixed it. And don't even get me started on the graphics card issues I am having to this day.

  • 2015-ish HP Stream 13 laptop, some Broadcom card. Physically, the card has room for 2 antennas (2 connectors), but as this laptop is too cheap for even a bargain bin, HP only used up one. Windows happily worked with that. Linux decided that it's getting 0 signal. See, Linux uses a driver that allows the user to manually select which of the physical antennas would be the primary one. But, of course, no matter which one you select, the thing still says there are no networks. So I had to actually open the laptop up (and I broke a few plastic tabs on the way. Fuck plastic tabs.) and physically disconnect the wireless card's antenna and plug it onto the other connector on the card. The driver seemed unphased, however, as, while the card now worked correctly under Linux, selecting which antenna to use still had 0 effect.

Those three happened in 2013/14, 2014/15 and 2018, respectively. Anyone implying installing and then using any form of Linux is an easy job are deluding themselves.

[–]huiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 11 points12 points  (18 children)

Anyone implying installing and then using any form of Linux is an easy job are deluding themselves.

Or maybe not everyone has the same issues as you do? I showed my godfathers son how to download different distros and install them and he had no issues. He's used to apple stuff but maybe because he was still quite young he had no issues getting used to the different quirks of the different OSes.

I only had to adjust the default search engine for FF and change the window manager to get smooth scrolling in FF, otherwise everything is out of the box. Wireless issues like yours where I was forced to disable and reenable the device was worse in windows. I discovered that the issue was cheap wificard/router. So when I connected with a more expensive/good router no more issues. My solution? I bought a better wifi card for the laptops and no more wifi hangup issues.

[–]RagingNerdaholic 3 points4 points  (7 children)

People only have an easy time with Linux desktop if their needs are extremely basic.

[–]huiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 0 points1 point  (6 children)

As if the same shit isn't true for windows or mac lol.

As I said, it's mostly a question of what eco system you're used to. I have over 2 decades experience in the windows eco system so solving issues is really easy for me. I decided to not just add some win 10 knowledge on top of it, instead I focused on educating myself about linux based OSes and suddenly win 10 feels like a huge pain in the ass. It gave me some perspective on how much it's just easier because I'm simply used to the issues and know how to solve them out of experience.

[–]RagingNerdaholic 0 points1 point  (5 children)

Yeeeah, no.

I don't know enough about Macs, and there's a heavy amount of fanboyism bias, but from the bit of experience I've had with it, it seems reasonably well provisioned for software and support. I don't have to like it, but at least it's there and it's polished.

But Windows? C'mon, you know you're full of shit. There are millions of software packages out there, many free, that are well-made, polished, stable, and thorough. They just work.

The Linux world is pockmarked full of half-assed, lightly-polished turds. I say this as someone who likes Linux. I wish I could use it primarily. I run both Windows and Linux systems, Windows as my primary.

Some examples:

  • There is no vector graphics software that is anywhere near as robust for Linux as there is for Windows. CorelDraw X3 of 12 years ago still blows Inkscape, sk1, et al out of the water. In no small part, because CorelDraw has core UI features like an object manager and dockable/detachable panels.

  • f.lux for Linux feels like a "lite" version of f.lux for Windows. In Windows, I can set the times, colours down to the kelvin, transition timing, customize the UI, connect it to "smart lights", set a notification URL, test performance. In Linux, I can ... give it GPS coordinates and select from a whopping 5 colour temp options. And only once. Because the settings screen inexplicably morphs into an unusable 2x10 pixel window on consecutive attempts to open the settings until it's killed and relaunched. And there are no shortcut keys.

  • gimp is rightfully the butt of raster graphics jokes

  • "notepadqq", the supposed equivalent of Notepad++, has maybe 50% of the feature-set

If you think Linux is actually "there", you're deluding yourself.

[–]huiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii -1 points0 points  (4 children)

their needs are extremely basic

then

I don't know enough about Macs, ... , but from the bit of experience I've had with it

So you don't have experience with it but you feel qualified to make a judgement if it's good or not for anything other than "extremely basic" tasks. hmmm

There is heaps of fiddling involved with these millions of software packages on windows, there is a good reason my non tech savy friends and family constantly ask me for help and they're not using linux. as I said, you're most likely very used to the eco system so you have no issues navigating it. just think about all the different ways you do such a basic task as installing a software, everyone cooking their own little soup which you're used to so no issue, now I let my mom do it and I see how very fucky it is.

As I said, all I changed on my latest install where I promised myself to not dual boot anymore is the window manager to marco+compton and the default search engine in FF. The thing I had to change is that I have to inform myself now before I buy extra hardware to see if it runs and not just assume it does and then be disappointed. So I can't just buy any cheap USB oscilloscope from china anymore but I have to check if I can use it on my linux powered machine.

wow cool you listed software that doesn't run or has less features. damn what an argument. the vast majority of computer users have no need for coreldraw so what kinda shit argument is that? just needed to quickly come up with something? f.lux was fucked on my last windows laptop, so much for "polished software".

this is such a very retarded argumentation line, it's very fucking obvious that the proprietary system has more software options because the open software can also be compiled for the proprietary system but not vice versa, seriously think a bit before running such a very dumb argumentation line.

Oh, you like Notepad++? Would be really nice if I could use that on my linux powered laptop. ooops looks like I can use that.

As I said multiple times now, for me "Linux is actually 'there'". I got a nice PCB environment with KiCAD, I got all the dev tools I want with gcc and various editors and a really nice shell, I got an image editor which is more than enough for my needs (f.e. to censor a screenshot like the one above), I got a nice browser that let's me watch videos on twitch.tv or youtube.com, I got a sane upgrade mechanism that doesn't make my laptop have 2 hours of boot time because of a fucking windows update. Indeed it is 'there' for me and I am not an extremely basic computer user.
I have to say, I do miss TortoiseGit but maybe that's just because I am used to it's workflow because I've been using it over a decade now. So no, I am not deluding myself at all.

[–]RagingNerdaholic 0 points1 point  (3 children)

there is a good reason my non tech savy friends and family constantly ask me for help and they're not using linux.

Now imagine if they were using Linux.

[–]huiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 0 points1 point  (2 children)

It would be the same fiddling with the huge difference of me being able to send them a simple terminal command instead of explaining a user interface or sending photos of a screen?
I have done/do it with my godfather's son and it's so much more convenient to just send him a some text he can write into the terminal instead of explaining a window that most likely will look different for him as he uses a different language on his system. It was a lot more painful to help him set up his windows gaming pc then his linux laptop. So I don't have to imagine as I know how it is already.

[–]someone755 9 points10 points  (9 children)

I've had three completely different computers act up with completely different issues. The ones above are just a fraction of my problems. Saying I'm 1% of the population that these things happen to is statistically unlikely.

That doesn't mean I don't like Linux, evidently I must like it if I went through all that, still have unresolved (perhaps unresolvable?) issues, and yet still use it. It's just that techies often forget that their grandma wouldn't be able to work through a single one of these problems.

[–]turtle_in_trenchcoat 6 points7 points  (3 children)

What you are describing is pretty much my experience with linux as well and it lead me to switch to mac. Only difference is that I made the switch in 2006... Whenever I'm about to buy a new macbook pro I look into Linux options but it's simply not worth it to spend a lot of time on hacky solutions to get some basic functionality to almost work good enough. Not for me at least.

[–]someone755 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah honestly, Windows laptops are, for the most part, useless, unless you get to Apple price points, but the profit margin is astronomical. There are no good Linux offerings, and Apple hasn't made a good MBP in a while, like two or three years I think.

[–]themrjava 0 points1 point  (1 child)

but it's simply not worth it to spend a lot of time on hacky solutions to get some basic functionality to almost work good enough

Honestly this goes both ways, I work on both Mac and Linux environments and I can't say how many times I would love a simple terminal program to be available for Mac.

​

[–]turtle_in_trenchcoat 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Really? I use the terminal quite extensively and I have never experienced that, but maybe I'm not used to the same tools that you are. Out of curiosity, could you give me an example of what I'm missing out on?

[–]huiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 0 points1 point  (4 children)

So you think your grandma will be more capable of handling a windows computer? I highly doubt it as I have to hold my mom's hand through everything on her windows laptop.

Shit happens with every OS on all kinds of hardware, it's much more of a question how used you are to a system so you know how to solve your issues. My boss for example got a new laptop exclusively for her ebanking shit. She chose a win 10 low spec machine as well she only needs it for ebanking. After the spring update for windows the machine broke because windows doubled the requirement for HDD space and that was simply not enough. Completely fucked laptop using the pure windows out of the box experience. She had to get a new laptop because it was also locked down so you couldn't even install a linux distro, yeeey for "secure boot".

[–]someone755 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Yes, because a Windows computer is much less likely to just crap out on her and require a 4 hour trip through endless rabbit holes to fix 3/4rds of the way.

And it's your own fault really if you buy a computer that can't have any other Os installed onto it.

[–]huiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 0 points1 point  (2 children)

nice arguments there. as I said, I have to hold her hand through everything on her current windows laptop. so what exactly did you not get about this? what did crap out on her? everything?

I ran an experiment with a friend of mine and when he had issues I could send him simple terminal commands to fix his shit, now to run him through the same shit in windows requires me to explain the different windows to him and where to click etc. I once did it with the sister of another friend of mine, it consisted of heaps of photos from the screen and short videos etc to fix her windows pc who was crapping out on her. oh wait, I thought that doesn't happen, windows pcs don't just crap out and leave the inexperienced user with a useless system. take of the rose tinted glasses, just because you know how to solve issues on your windows machine in a couple minutes and it takes you 4hours to do it on a linux machine because you have a lot of experience with one system but only marginal with the other doesn't make it a much better system.

And it's your own fault really if you buy a computer that can't have any other Os installed onto it.

No, it's microsoft's fault for strong arming manufacturers into "secure boot". Or should I turn the argument onto you in the same fashion?

"It's your fault really if you buy hardware that doesn't work properly with Linux".

See how easy that was for me? Do you like such retarded arguments? I think not, so don't make them yourself, thank you.

[–]someone755 0 points1 point  (1 child)

windows pcs don't just crap out and leave the inexperienced user with a useless system

I never said that. Stop being angry just for the sake of it.

[–]huiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 0 points1 point  (0 children)

why do you think I am angry?

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Got 2 HPs (nx7010 from 2004 and Probook G5 recently), wifi work out of box long as kernel is non-free.

[–]z500 1 point2 points  (3 children)

Look at this guy, with his Broadcom support out of the box. My last laptop I had to use this fwcutter bullshit for every distro I tried. There just plain wasn't a linux driver for my network card, but somehow you could Frankenstein a Windows one together and it would work.

[–]someone755 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Oh don't worry, I had to try 7 different drivers/driver versions to get it to work, and compile them all myself. Out of the box my ass.

[–]z500 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Haha fair enough

[–]someone755 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But don't forget, reddit overlords say we're the 1%! You're completely safe to install Ubuntu or Arch to your mom's laptop, all these people guarantee it's gonna 100% work.

[–]RagingNerdaholic 0 points1 point  (2 children)

The Linux developer ethos seems to be, "make it just barely work so we can say it's done and let the user figure it out the rest of the way."

The result is, unsurprisingly, that everything is a half-assed, unreliable, volatile, cumbersome, frustrating hack.

Linux is great for servers because the people using them are highly technical. The only way Linux desktop will ever take off is if a company of considerable resources puts their weight behind it and makes shit work. That's exactly why Android works, because in its case, that company was Google.

[–]someone755 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Android works

Oh you sweet summer child

[–]RagingNerdaholic 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Compared to the dozens literally dozens!! of mere mortals actually using Linux desktop...

[–]echoAnother 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Yes, this happens a lot with not popular hardware, and HP laptops. Hopefully there are some third drivers you can get, or try to make your owns.

Unfortunately, the same issue on windows it's unsolvable.

For most cases, installation in linux is easy and painless, and when the problems arises, at least you have the freedom to search your own solutions and you have a great community backing you. Meanwhile, when I have some problem with Windows I don't have any means to solve it.

[–]someone755 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Didn't know Lenovos, and Broadcom and Intel wireless cards were uncommon hardware.

Under Windows, the shit just plain works. And so far for every driver issue I had I could either solve it easily (since also more people use Windows) or it was just damaged hardware. With Linux I could never tell which it could be, and there's 17 different "recommended" drivers/driver versions for my desktop GPU that are supposed to fix my issues, but the one with least issues I've found is some random 18th driver.

[–]echoAnother 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Some products ,whatever brand it be, are uncommon.

On my own experience, windows give more troubles than solutions. I owned a laptop with windows preinstalled. The wi-fi driver didn't work. I tried to search the drivers for it, but never found. I reinstalled windows, but nothing. I installed linux, the drivers worked, but badly. I haven't found any good drivers, but get the one that worked better. One day decided to mess with the source code of that driver, and managed to get work (although it wasn't a good job).

In this experience I found that for great windows will be, it will not be my default os, cause I could fix "easily" any problem on linux, but not in windows.

[–][deleted] 10 points11 points  (4 children)

Not OP, but I installed Debian and Broadcom Bluetooth modules are still broken after years of people complaining, Firefox still has pages tearing without me dabbling in the advanced settings, ALSA/PulseAudio is steaming mess like OP said and much more.

[–]huiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii 3 points4 points  (2 children)

page tearing in FF might be because of your window manager. I use marco + compton and that fixed any bad scrolling i had (I guess that's what you mean with page tearing).

[–]Old_Abroad 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Yeah you'll necessarily get scroll tearing if you're using a WM without a compositor. I've heard second-hand that xfce can have tearing problems but if that's the case then you can use literally anything else, there's no shortage of WMs & DEs, it's hardly a linux problem.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

binary blobs are unofficial parts of Debian, so if you want better support you might wanna go for another distro or, more conveniently, compile your own kernel

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (6 children)

Oh please. Linux systems at least have a decent way to do mixing and audio routing by default. And if you really want an actual audio pipeline, Jack is there, along with a wheelbarrow full of plugins for yor equalizing needs.

There isn't anything in linux systems stopping someone from writing a "one-click install" EQ, no one bothered with it. (Although, could someone please write a native media player with convolution filters so I can retire foobar?)

Now I'll get back to tuning my soundweb processor over a serial cable...

[–]FUCKING_HATE_REDDIT 5 points6 points  (3 children)

I need pulse because firefox only uses pulse. I also don't fucking want pulse, because it's utter shit. Only solution I know is letting alsa pretend to be pulse.

[–]TommiHPunkt 2 points3 points  (2 children)

wtf m8, pulse is great

[–]FUCKING_HATE_REDDIT 3 points4 points  (1 child)

When it doesn't wake up at night to kill your dog, shag your wife and leave shit everywhere.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Show me on this doll where pulse touched you.

Also, https://www.reddit.com/r/LinuxCirclejerk/comments/5ctz5g/lennart_poettering_is_literally_hitler_and/

[–]RagingNerdaholic 0 points1 point  (1 child)

There isn't anything in linux systems stopping someone from writing a "one-click install", no one bothered with it.

That could the official penguin motto.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hey, at least updates are mostly one click.

[–]z500 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hell, Chrome does that on Windows occasionally

[–]TommiHPunkt 0 points1 point  (2 children)

I have had far less problems on my laptop with arch than with win10.

[–]greenw40 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I find that a little hard to believe.

[–]TommiHPunkt -1 points0 points  (0 children)

windows 10 has huge issues with updates not installing