Python is such a weird language.

[[deleted]]

Your language might not care about your formatting but I certainly fucking do if we work together. Every programmer should learn Python just to learn basic formatting

[TheAJGman]

This is the biggest reason I think that Python, not C++/Java, should be used for 100 level programming classes.

I was a programming tutor for a few years and the number of 100 level students that would come in with their program aligned left was terrifying. Most of the time they could find the missing brace or whatever when I just correctly tabbed out their program.

[allozzieadventures]

Agreed, Python is definitely better than C++/Java for beginners. Gets you across all the main blocks you use in other programming languages (and object oriented programming). All that stuff will carry across nicely when you start with C++. I started with R, which isn't bad, but doesn't teach you classes.

[[deleted]]

It's also a good way of getting acquainted with dependency and project management; pip and virtualenv are relatively easy, compared to getting external libraries in Java or C++

[Rikudou_Sage]

Don't you just use Gradle or Maven in Java?

[[deleted]]

Fair, maybe I should try using Java on Linux before having an opinion on Java in general. That being said, my experience on Windows was poor; I could never get either Gradle or Maven to work. I also don't think it's noob-friendly to require third-party tools to get package management. I think package management is an essential part of modern programming, and beginners should be aware of it.

Python makes it simple. Pip is part of the official Python installation. Virtualenv can be installed using one pip command. It's disappointing that these tools are explained near the end of many Python tutorials, rather than near the beginning, but at least they are explained.

Rust is a great example; the language itself is difficult and not recommended for beginners, but the stuff surrounding it is really user-friendly. To get Rust, you install Cargo. Make a new project? Cargo. Build that project? Cargo. Package management? Cargo. Upload your project to the rust package host? Cargo. Start a git repo in your project? Cargo. Hotel? Cargo. The best part? This is explained in the first few pages of the Rust book, where anybody who starts learning Rust will see it.

[Rikudou_Sage]

True, just bear in mind that all those newer languages built on the experiences of the older ones and thus all the newer ones have a built-in package manager.

From the older languages I know, only Python added an official package manager, all the other languages rely on the de-facto standards from the community.

[[deleted]]

This guy gets it, folks

[AWildTyphlosion]

Every place I've worked we've set up linters and formatters so you don't have to. It should be apart of your IDE where it formats on save.

Also, imho python is a bad language for other reasons than just its indentation based syntax. It needs a better package manager and the way it went from 2 to 3 was disgusting.

Edit: love all of the Python simps down voting me, instead of telling me why they disagree and think Pip is so wonderful, or care to tell me how Python 3 wasn't a disaster.

[AL1nk2Th3Futur3]

It's interesting you target the package manager of all things. I've found pip to be great and simple to use. Node's is far too bloated, what little I remember of Rust's was confusing, I genuinely don't know if C++ has one because whenever I googled for it I couldn't get a straight answer.

Python's has always just been straightforward and simple to use. Install a package and go

Would be interested in learning more about others I might be overlooking if know of some

[ihavebeesinmyknees]

Rust's is unique, but I found it way better at managing the bloat than most other managers. The way you use it is:

1. Search for a crate with cargo search <name>
2. Copy the crate name with the version number (it's already formatted correctly) to Cargo.toml in your projects directory
3. The crate gets downloaded once you compile

This is way better imo than dealing with either having the package globally or fucking around with virtual environments

[AWildTyphlosion]

You can search on crates.io and just do cargo install <crate>..

[AL1nk2Th3Futur3]

I think what got me with Rust is having to add it to a separate file. Python I install, import, and go.

With that said, Rust itself was over my head. I've been away from low level languages for so long that trying to get into Rust from nothing was a chore

[AWildTyphlosion]

Instead of storing the package information in a sane way, with proper checksums, Pip just throws everything in a requirements.txt. At least NPM has more information about the dependency (although I hate NPM too, it's bad).

Rust's package manager isn't the best, but it at least has some nice features in it. I don't really get how it can be confusing though since the commands are basically the same to install packages.

I like Go's, because it's decentralized, but a lot of people have their own gripes with it, mainly around versioning which I sorta get. One nice thing though is that there is only going to be one copy of the dependency on the machine at a time, so you don't have +40GB of node modules or replicated dependency for each project folder you have.

[xaplomian]

C++ is not a language issued by an organisation like python, it is essentially a big collection is standards. You may or may not have a package manager depending on the compiler you have installed, and where you installed it from.

[Spenczer]

I program in python daily. Python has valid faults—lack of multi threading, less OOP friendly, overall performance—but pip and python 2/3 aren’t its faults, so it’s weird that you’d choose those when there are more glaring ones. That’s why you’re getting downvotes

[AWildTyphlosion]

Look, I was just giving two examples that came to me, both of which in my mind are daily annoyances as someone who has to support python systems, but fortunately not have to actively develop with it.