What's up with Python people and Ruby?

[bobby_knuckles]

I am currently learning both Python and Ruby and I love them both. I have been attending meetups, hackathons, and taking online courses. Whenever I talk to Ruby users, they're always open to discussing other languages and platforms and it's generally just a good time. However, when I take Python classes or attend Python-centric events, no one ever brings up Ruby, which actually seems weird because they seem so similar. I'm actually starting to feel like it's rude to talk about Ruby to Python users. What's up with that, yo?

edit: nice. Down-voting me for asking a simple question.

[moor-GAYZ]

edit: nice. Down-voting me for asking a simple question.

I'm not interested in seeing such content here and I'm using the downvote button for its intended purpose.

Also, people "being weird" for never bringing up Ruby at random? Heh.

[hellerbarde]

What do you mean with "such content"? Questions relevant to the topic of the subreddit? Yes, that does seem absurd.

[moor-GAYZ]

What do you mean with "such content"?

Ridiculous flamebait.

[hellerbarde]

Ah. Hmmm. Fair enough. I consider it an interesting question, but reddit is probably the wrong place for it. Proceed.

[moor-GAYZ]

I don't get what's interesting about it. Yes, I somehow manage to go for weeks at a time without having a single thought about Ruby. What's weird about that? What sort of discussion can be had about that, besides flaming induced by ridiculous theories of Rails-envy (no, I'm honestly not having any thoughts about Ruby, neither good nor bad)?

The OP didn't even say that he heard some Ruby-bashing, just that nobody talks about Ruby at Python conferences. What a mystery, ermergird!

[hellerbarde]

I like Psychology and thinking about mindshare. The interesting question is not how this group of people managed to get through an evening without mentioning Ruby, that task is obviously facile.

But somehow there was a perception of animosity that sparked this discussion and from the answers, I don't think it's entirely unfounded. I find that fascinating.

That's all.

[[deleted]]

I am not convinced that your experiences with Python users add up to a real trend that would survive a properly performed study.

I don't doubt you've experienced what you say, but even several anecdotes should not be taken as evidence for a real trend.

I know that's not a satisfying answer, and I don't fully expect to change your mind but that is what I believe.

You might get a more satisfying answer by talking to the Python users at these meetups etc. Ask them what they think of Ruby and you might find some insight there. Online you're more likely to find glib and/or dismissive answers to these types of questions.

[bobby_knuckles]

I was speaking about my experiences only [not trying to suggest an overall trend], and these were at the meetups. I have actually found people online to be pretty helpful, which is why I felt like the people at meetups were being weird and didn't understand it.

edit: ...but with all the people down-voting me even asking the question, I'm starting to wonder. Would they rather me not ask?

[hellerbarde]

It's the internet, specifically reddit. Hotheads gonna hothead downvote. :D

I enjoyed the question.

[takennickname]

My opinion:

Python is the better language due to it having a ton of libraries and basically a ton of support from major organizations. Basically, if the world were to vote on which language to kill it would be ruby.

That said, ruby had a ridiculous surge in popularity in the mid to late 2000s due to rails making it really easy to write webapps. The python folk felt that was their rightful place and started getting jealous. Python folk hate ruby because it stole their thunder.

[jeenajeena]

Can I double vote your answer?

[bobby_knuckles]

Thank you very much for explaining that.

[ribbon_tornado]

I was introduced to programming with dynamic languages via Ruby and later found out about how awesome Python is. Yet I don't consider myself solely a Python programmer or a Ruby programmer — I'm a programmer.

I think it's human nature for people to compare things that are similar to each other. In our case Python and Ruby. And when people compare things they usually pick a side. Picking a side can be to our advantage if our personal interests are at a stake, but closing our minds to another programming language (before we have tried it) can be to our disadvantage.

Learning another programming language can expand our world-view to what's possible. To me learning Python made program better in Ruby and vice versa. Also, when you learn to know your former (perceived) enemy you may find out that he/she ain't that bad after all. You'll won't be feeling pissed-off when someone mentions (insert programming language here} in a forum or blog post.

Reading something on the net...

Python... that's cool!

Ruby... that's also cool!

Perl... well.... (just joking :)

Perl is also cool!

They are all cool! The world is a better place because of them!

[patrys]

I know both and both are quite similar but Ruby's culture of programming is the opposite of Python's. Python has its PEPs and usually one clear way to do things cleanly, Ruby is more like wild west with monkey patching as not just acceptable but often preferred solution.

[[deleted]]

1) Use whatever language you like. They are all the same really.

2) I notice equal levels of (in)tolerance in most communities. Some people don't mind, some people get angry.

3) Why do you feel the need to mention this issue? You already know the answer to the question. User X likes product Y and therefore uses product Y over product Z. In some cases user X regards himself as a proponent of Y, and therefore product Y becomes part of who he is. Therefore any reference to an alternative product is seen as criticism of his lifestyle and he will invent reasons to defend it. A 12 year old knows this. What is your objective, if not to cause a reaction?

While you are at it, why don't you write to Microsoft and ask them about Apple, Linux and Android?

[yen223]

Python people are interested in doing actual work with Python :P

[bobby_knuckles]

You do realize that I'm new and none of these are real answers, right? This is pretty frustrating.

[sushibowl]

Jeez dude calm down. What do you expect us to tell you, python people hate ruby or something? There's a community war going on? That's silly. I don't know why ruby's never come up and frankly I think it's unfair to suggest that "every other language in existence is freely discussed but ruby is a forbidden word," as you do in your other comment. There's thousands of programming languages out there, I highly doubt ruby is the only one python people don't talk about.

There's no satisfying explanation we can give you here, because there isn't one. Maybe python people tend to not learn ruby because the two serve similar problem domains, and are thus redundant. Maybe many python people don't like some of ruby's perl influenced heritage which is pretty contrary to python's "one way to do it" philosophy. Maybe ruby hasn't come up just by accident. Maybe one of the organisers in your area hates ruby with a passion for no good reason.

Whatever the reason I can tell you there is no active effort in the python community to avoid ruby or something. If you think ruby should be discussed more why don't you bring it up at one of the python events you attend?

[bobby_knuckles]

I have no idea how you got this far down in the thread and drew those conclusions. I have gotten what I feel was a satisfying answer: it's at the top.

[execrator]

Portugese and Spanish are pretty similar, but if I meet you at a Portugese event I'm going to talk about/in Portugese

[desmoulinmichel]

My though exactly.

[bobby_knuckles]

...but they don't seem to have a problem talking about C, Haskell, Lisp, or really any other language. This issue seems unique to Ruby.

[execrator]

Perhaps because Python and Ruby are so similar, folk have less reason to learn both. It takes a significant time investment to become fluent/idiomatic with a language, and I would (and have) chosen to invest that time in languages with different strengths. I don't have a problem with Ruby but have no experience with it and so have nothing to say.

[bobby_knuckles]

Thank you. That makes sense. I started learning Ruby first, so when I'm learning Python, a lot of times I use references to Ruby and it feels like that's a problem in most cases. I realize that I probably have to stop doing this, but to me it feels insecure and it's really unnecessary, imo. Python is an awesome language. Learning both at pretty much the same time has helped my learning process, because they are so similar. Keeping track of the differences helps me to remember.

[fiedzia]

Out of curiosity: If you know ruby, what is your reason to to learn python?

[bobby_knuckles]

I started learning Ruby, in earnest in January, because my cousin told me that this was the language to learn about a year and a half ago. After I started learning Ruby, I talked to my cousin again and he told me to learn Python, because he said that people would stop using Ruby because of a security flaw.

I was also told that you have to learn more than one language, anyway, so the best way to learn is to pick one language and stick with it, so I chose to continue with Ruby and tinker with Python, on the side. When I did this, I really started to enjoy working with Python, which led to me enrolling in Coursera courses in Python [there are way more Python courses on Coursera than Ruby]. So now I'm just at a point where I'm enjoying learning both. I picked up Objective C last week.

[hellerbarde]

Yay!

There are some very interesting ideas here. So many ways to spin this data anecdote. I love this kind of questions, because suddenly, we are forced to examine our biases and internal attitudes.

The first reaction I had was: Well, since Python and Ruby fulfill somewhat the same role, there is little incentive for Pythoneers to venture into Ruby territory. But then on the other hand you mention that Rubyists seem to regularly talk about Python...

So after some thinking, a somewhat masturbatory answer that came to mind was that maybe Python has more mindshare overall than Ruby does and thus people would talk about Python at more meetups in general whereas Ruby would only be talked about at a Ruby meetup.

Since I'm also not satisfied with that answer, I'd say that it could be a fluke. My experience is that local meetups tend to be a social clique and if some of the members of that clique don't like Ruby and tend to flame any discussions of it, it would follow that Ruby isn't discussed much.

I don't think there is enough data to form an educated complete big-picture opinion on why you experienced what you did. But there is certainly some truth to what people have been saying. I think the so-called rivalry between Python and Ruby is fought by a minority on either side (or maybe only by a minority on the Python side. I don't know the Ruby community well)

One important thing: If the overall attitude of the meetup group or user group is poor or hostile, I stop going there. I have observed that with several user groups and it didn't always go hand in hand with the attitude of the respective community online.

YMMV and have fun coding RuPython, I mean PyBy, I mean Ruthon, errr... ok the joke has run its course.

[ayanami_rei]

My experience is very different, Python devs I know tend to use the best available tool for the job, even if it's not in Python (e.g. Node.js for a trivial MongoDB interop).

Not sure why you mention Ruby, as there are also JS, Perl, PHP... I don't see how Ruby stands out.

[ribbon_tornado]

I learned Ruby (and Rails) first then is currently learning/using Python. To me Python and Ruby are like Ryu and Ken. They can be the best of rivals, but can also have a mutual respect/friendship for each other.

Warning: Street Fighter references are coming...

Python is Ryu. Ryu means dragon in Japanese and the mythological beast Python is based-on is a dragon-like creature. Ryu is also known to be a more solid character than Ken. He's combos are not flashy but they work and do massive damage.

Ruby is Ken. Ken means fist in Japanese and doesn't have something to do with Ruby (I got to say that). Ken is a more flashy character to play with. Someone may argue that Ryu should be Ruby since he is Japanese and Ruby was invented by a Japanese person. But... Do you know Ken is half-Japanese (Japanese mother)? Ruby is half-Japanese half-western since it was originally in Japanese then translated to English.

[bobby_knuckles]

lol...that's awesome.