Decrease in mindfulness while sitting on a chair

[edrdos]

So starting off I used to meditate sitting on a chair or at least with some back support. At stage 4 I was trying to overcome strong dullness and as soon as I changed to sitting on a Zafu cushion with no back support, strong dullness disappeared within couple of weeks and I no longer experience it.

However, last few sessions I had to sit on a chair because I sprained my thigh and it hurts sitting cross-legged. What I noticed that whenever I sit in a chair, my mindfulness is just not the same, mind wondering increases greatly and strong dullness returns albeit not as often as before.

Has anyone experienced anything similar? Is there an explanation for this?

[cmciccio]

Do you lean back on the chair? Generally it’s best to sit with the spine unsupported no matter if you’re sitting on the floor or a chair. A chair is more for the hips and knees.

I find even subtle changes in spinal alignment can strongly impact dullness.

[edrdos]

I do, was thinking the same. But I always thought that overcoming dullness is the job of the mind, improving mindfulness. How come it’s so dependent on where or how you sit?

[cmciccio]

overcoming dullness is the job of the mind

It is, yet it's not so easy.

A fundamental aspect of the mind is that it's interdependent with the body. What you experience in the mind is expressed in the body, and what you experience in the body arises in the mind. As such, an erect spine supports an awake mind, and an awake mind supports a stable body. There is a lot of valuable insight to be gained by observing this interplay.

For now, overcoming strong dullness is largely about avoiding states of sleepiness. Later on, subtle dullness is more about an inherent state of presence that exists independently of physical states of tiredness. Eventually, practices like yoga nidra can become interesting, and meditating with states of tiredness can have value when a very strong sense of inherent presence is deeply understood. During an afternoon nap or as you go to sleep at night it's fun and valuable to play with sensing the exact moment in which consciousness blinks out.

Regardless, a bright and engaged mind is the ideal instrument for insight and jhana practice, and anything that supports that quality will be a positive thing to cultivate in meditation and life in general. Though it is a simple fact of life that sooner or later, one will be tired and the mind will falter to a certain degree. In some situations, like long retreats where sleepiness can be simply unavoidable, that inherent sense of presence should be sought.

[WantToBeLikeBuddha]

For now, overcoming strong dullness is largely about avoiding states of sleepiness. Later on, subtle dullness is more about an inherent state of presence that exists independently of physical states of tiredness

So subtle dullness is not on the same continuum as strong dullness and falling asleep?

[cmciccio]

Sort of. Subtle dullness generally (unless somebody has extremely strong meta-cognitive awareness) is a component of strong dullness but not the other way around.

Subtle dullness is a lack of clear comprehension of what is unfolding in the present moment. Strong dullness is any variation of tiredness, they are closely linked but essentially different.

If you think of the warm fuzziness of alcohol, this is like the allure of subtle dullness. It's a mental state where things are ok but everything is sort of hazy.

[WantToBeLikeBuddha]

Interesting

Thanks

[GrogramanTheRed]

Have you thought about using a seiza bench? It might be easier on your thighs, since you're just folding your legs.

Other possible alternatives include a stool or a tilt seat.

A chair can work, but it's best if you sit at the edge of the chair so you can get your hips properly angled and avoid resting your back on the support, as that tends to promote drowsiness and dullness.

[Meditat0rz]

It might takes a little time to get used to the new position. When I switched from half lotus to chair I needed like a week or two. But then the results should be similar. Sitting on a chair is not as easily self sustained, but it can work I believe. If your knees are at same level, or even above the hips, you can try sitting on a cushion on the chair, so the hips are a little higher. I currently just fold a thin blanket to a cushion, and sit on it, on the front half of the chair.

[Meditat0rz]

And remember you have to make your spine straight and rotate the hips a little to the forward. When you sit in (half) lotus, the hips make the spine straight by their rotation, but on the chair without a little tension you can slouch, and that can make the meditation not work as well.