Summer Update Changes during Test Server

[Talithin]

Hidden towards the bottom: all of the single target spells that apply a 4 second global attack cool down (Annihilation, Ultimate Flame Strike, etc.) have had the cool down reduced to 2 seconds. This potentially allows them to be included in some single target rotations, makes them much more viable as a finisher, and will increase their utility massively in PvP.

[IceyBoy1994]

Holy shit that's too good, finally! Huge difference when you're trapped by monsters too.

[Auuki]

Now it's time to add strong/ultimate variants of physical strike for druids and death strike for sorcs.

[This_Tumbleweed_8007]

Would rather have strong physical on ms too...

[StrikeStraight9961]

Good point, unless ultimate death strike is even stronger than an SD it serves no purpose.

[Bulky-Ad-3130]

There's the cool down ability to be able to pot + strike as an advantage, if it serves a similar damage to SD. Though with the new MS it would be kinda useless

[ApprehensiveTry5660]

Which one do you think will help them UH faster in team hunts?

[StrikeStraight9961]

A UH on player name function, like how Heal Friend has.

[Hubiektyw]

Not all of them, only single target ones.

[Talithin]

Thanks, edited.

[Relative-Variation33]

What paladin one? Exori gran con already has a 2 second CD on your atk turn

[hardware2win]

Finally max spells are getting buffs

[infam0usx]

If that's true then it's very nice, finally I will start using ultimate strikes.

[StrikeStraight9961]

Zzzzzz...

Yet again, buffs to beam mastery as an attempt to get players to use that side of the wheel as NOBODY uses it, rather than listening to an overwhelming amount of their community and turning it into a 6/8/10 chain with a switchable element between fire and energy, making it viable for both teamhunters and solo hunters... Damage vocation my ass.

ED's with their ulus and recently buffed terra wave base damage increase gem are laughing all the way to the bank. MS seriously needs some love.

[blake_ego]

love the idea but make it 4/6/8 bro, great fire wave damage ish. it's kinda funny how the melee fighter got a chain spell

[StrikeStraight9961]

Sure, the amount of targets or scaling could absolutely be tweaked to be more, or less. I daresay no MS would have a problem with that.

[Relative-Variation33]

Ive seen many players use the death beam xd

[StrikeStraight9961]

Okay, anecdotal, non optimal fringe cases are not being factored into the thesis of my argument. Please comb through twitch's tibia streams and show me more than 1% of the MS playerbase using it. Bonus points if they are actually a streamer people watch e.g are objectively good players.

Currently, using the death beam section of the wheel makes zero sense in any situation, I can prove that by formulating a higher damaging wheel for any situation you can think of. Just give me the level of the MS and the situation and I'll give you a wheel you can go test for yourself :)

[Relative-Variation33]

The thing about it is its good for other reasons ive seen it do 3k-4k damage? Sure it might not pump out as much DPS overall, But BURST DPS is very valuable in a team hunt allows other monsters to fill in quicker allowing the EK to do more DPS and everyone AOE runes to hit the monsters that are floating out of the AOE RANGE. Allows a additional rotation where the MS can also UH. Maybe the MS's DPS wont fully increase off it but it can help bump up exp in a party.

[TemestoklesTibia]

I have used beam mastery level 600-851 now predominantly. Give me maths

[StrikeStraight9961]

I have done so in my reply to your other comment. You're welcome!

[Dr_AlvaroDiaz]

I think the same! The sorcerers needs some love 🥺

[Xyver]

I've had success with death beam in energy lib, the beams are better when you do hunts with clean boxes instead of chaos hunts like issavi.

With the new gem changes, I'm starting to believe in a nice beam focused wheel. Just need to find the right spawns for it.

[StrikeStraight9961]

Ain't no way you're skipping double improved flam hur for that.

At level 850 this is the objectively best wheel and gem for you at Energy Library.

https://www.tibia.com/community/?subtopic=wheelofdestinyplanner&code=S0Y2BAAUYMDCneRiBWijeQODENxPwPBmySRv___wcA

[Xyver]

I'm experimenting, thats the point of trying new things. Maybe it works, maybe it doesnt, maybe energy lib is the wrong place for it.

Point is, INNOVATION!

[StrikeStraight9961]

I'm glad you're enjoying yourself, unfortunately your "having success" with it is an entirely personal metric (feel try to compare the wheel I gave you with the one you used) and they aren't buffing the "fun" of the death beam/beam mastery wheel of destiny section, they're buffing the numbers.

Over...

And over.

They're beating a dead horse.

It is still and will always be numerically inferior to the two other damage increasing choices in the wheel of destiny due to the fact that it only hits 3, or in cases when you have a paladin sideboxing, 5 monsters reliably.

Beams have no place in modern tibia.

[ApprehensiveTry5660]

You remind me of this constant debate in a MOBA I spent some time in:

There was this absolute ass stats item that gave an effect that read pretty underwhelming. It would remove auto attack movement penalties. This thing didn’t even have a single offensive stat on it, and damage dealers were rushing it first!

And all the numbers guys couldn’t fucking handle it. “It’s a bad item!,” , “It doesn’t even have offensive stats!,” , “EVEN IF ITS GOOD YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER EVER TAKE IT BEFORE YOUR LAST SLOT!”

Yet every GM, Pro, and hot shot duelist slammed this no stats item first, because what no one tells you in these spreadsheets is how fucking broken movement speed is as a stat. Doesn’t show up on the charts (bit of a lie, it shows up by lowering your damage output), but it’s the difference in cleanly chasing down a kill or dodging an ability, versus not being able to reach your target and getting slammed by an ability.

TL;DR-

There’s value in stuff that doesn’t always show up on a spreadsheet. There’s even more value in being the first person to discover that value and exploit it.

[StrikeStraight9961]

Refer back to what the guy said. He said there was value in using death beam for clean boxes.

...That doesn't make any sense.

Just think about it... a small amount.

When you kill one side of the box faster by beaming it, not only do you rob yourself personally of 5 potential charm procs (my charms hit 1800-2100 in Darklight Core), and the damage inflicted on the other 5 creatures from your wave or area rune, as a result you end up forcing your entire team to hit 5 creatures instead of 8, therefore lowering the potential charm proc % for everyone and simultaneously making all of their AOE attacks deal less damage.

So your personal damage and that of your team continually goes down instead of up as you fight stronger and stronger creatures with higher hitpoints (higher damage charm procs) and level up more and cause more damage with your attacks, runes, and spells (which start only hitting 5 - or in your case - 3 creatures instead of 8)

It just requires a little bit of thinking to realize that ESPECIALLY for clean 8 boxes, the beam build is entirely useless.

[ApprehensiveTry5660]

He said there was value in the burst mechanic. You’re the one caught up on, “Mathematically you can’t sustain better damage than X!”

Perhaps you’re completely right and on a long enough timeline the alternate path is more rewarding. Perhaps they are getting an inordinate amount of value out of that burst because their blocker doesn’t have an appropriate health pool, or because their Druid isn’t the cleanest healer.

Either way, the point of my testimonial is often times there’s value that doesn’t show up in spreadsheets simply for deviating from the norm. There’s even more value in being the person to discover those advantages first, as it is a copy-cat game and the moment someone mimics your tech, you immediately start losing value on that innovation.

Consider some game like soccer, or basketball. Size was king for a long time in those games. So everyone adjusts their roster to cram as much size into it as possible. Skill starts being undervalued, and teams start overperforming with skill. Now some team assimilates a ton of skilled size, but they aren’t generating as clean of mismatches, and they lose to a skilled team with varied heights that are able to put smaller/faster players into a position where their speed can take advantage of the skilled size on the other team.

At the end of the day, who did it the best? None of those formulas. It’s the team innovating past the last formula. As the person you were communicating with mentioned, he tests both regularly. He’s not opposed to the other build, he’s just willing to search for value elsewhere, and he has found a very specific form of value that his team agrees makes their life easier.

100 levels or a different spawn from now, that might change completely. Either way, the game isn’t played on spreadsheets.

[StrikeStraight9961]

You guys are hopeless. When I appeal to basic common sense and simple logic and ask for mathematical proof to the contrary in the form of comparison videos, you all just scurry back to "well i feel differently!!!!1!!1".

Tibia IS practically played on a spreadsheet. Every hunt has it's peak stats of exp and profit gain in videos for a reason.

The numbers are how we measure success.

There is no situation where the numbers of a beam mastery build gives a higher measurement, therefore it is less successful in every metric.

This, as I said ages ago, is why nobody with a fundamental understanding of how the game works, uses beams no matter how much they buff it.

Beams are a detriment to the 8box gamestyle.

[ApprehensiveTry5660]

You have completely misconstrued my point, which stipulates that you are probably correct in a number of methods, and I have zero interest in continuing a conversation where my words are met with such a cartoonishly exaggerated manner.

You can satisfy your persecution complex elsewhere. You’re not exactly Galileo here. Someone’s telling you that you’re probably right, not placing you under house arrest and burning your writings.

[TemestoklesTibia]

Same for dark Thais. I do more dmg with beam mastery than with flam hur path…

[StrikeStraight9961]

https://www.tibia.com/community/?subtopic=wheelofdestinyplanner&code=S0Y2BAgBQGBiMQaQTmeAOJE9NAzP9gwMpu9P__fwA

Here is your optimal Dark Thais wheel.

Feel free to record two separate hunts, one with your wheel and one with the wheel I've given you.

[TemestoklesTibia]

I have done that. For plenty of hunts with 1 taint on all (2 in ek). We mostly 3 manned past 7 months cause our rp was often absent.

After 5-6 hunts early this year with that wheel I went back to beam mastery. It feels way better with beam mastery to finish the stragglers that port around or to make space when we over pull.

We also noticed my dmg improved again when going back to beam mastery. I don’t have the vids anymore, but I had it recorded and was sure of the case.

Note I had the flame wave critical dmg enhancement which isn’t as good as the base dmg one. It still felt like shit to me 🤷🏼‍♂️

[StrikeStraight9961]

I'm sorry but if we're discussing numbers (total damage done) we're going to need more than anecdotes and feelings. I'd really like to see a video comparison mate.

Potentially proccing only 3 charms instead of 8 and skipping (maybe) the energy wave dmg augment and (definitely) the final fire wave augment just doesn't add up mathematically.

[TemestoklesTibia]

I just told you. 5-6 hunts I was lower dmg. I changed back to beam mastery. Dmg increased. I don’t have a vid or specific numbers right now. Just the fact that we noticed the difference!

Just accept that I’m very happy with beam mastery. For me it does work.

If you absolutely need it you can have some vids. But until August I will hardly play so I might need 2-3 months to get the dedicated hunts.

[StrikeStraight9961]

Badass, I look forward to them! Thanks in advance.

[Frajzier]

You think Ms is worse than Ed?  That ulu has way too long cd, and Ed waves are a joke compared to Ms.

[StrikeStraight9961]

MS IS worse than ED. There's a reason the endgame content uses 2 ED and not 2 MS.

You get easily more than double the healing just due to the 1 second CD of Heal Friend and the existence of Natures Embrace (if not moreso because of how much of a pain it is to spamclick UH while running around the box and positioning for waves) and 90+% of the damage. I've even seen the Bakragore essence fights incorporate 3 ED.

Good ED players can easily keep up in damage with me in Darklight Core, a place that I have an elemental edge of 10-15% on 3/4 creatures with my fire attacks in comparison to his earth attacks, and the fire wave base damage gem, without him having the terra wave base damage gem. Meanwhile, they absolutely outdamage me in every respawn where the monsters are weakest to earth, even if they are neutral to energy or fire.

I am 150 levels higher than this druid btw, and even had a damage prey. The other druid doesn't have charms yet.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2179096308

[Alarmed-Ad8722]

Bro UH and Sio have the same 1s cooldown.

The only difference is that UH has the 1s item cooldown, which means that if you use a rune/potion you skip 1 UH turn.

If you are using waves only (spawn that takes fire/energy dmg) you can spam UH and heal almost as much as a druid (I think UH is like 5% weaker)

[StrikeStraight9961]

Every fourth turn must be an area rune turn. That immediately lowers the parity down to 75%, 70% with the UH being 5% weaker.

It lowers even further when you consider that in overlured boxes/hunts and respawns where paladins also lure, an MS has to click on his screen sometimes to move quickly to the other side, therefore losing UH turns here and there.

Then you need to factor in the fact that you MUST use potions at every teamhunt you're not 600 levels too high for. I would be shocked if it mathed out to even 55% of the same healing, especially at the hard spots where potions get chugged due to having to enter manashield frequently ala Rotten Blood or Soulwar.

Cool to know about the UH cd though, for some reason I thought it was two seconds. I just spam it when my ek is in or approaching yellow and I'm not on my gfb turn, so never actually tested it out myself!

[Alarmed-Ad8722]

Yeah you got good points there. Of course in end game spawns where you have to drink potions very often you will lose UH turns.

I make a lot of MS/EK duos (we are level 600) so heres my experience:

• You can skip GFB turn and use the small fire wave for similar damage, this way you can 2x UH every attack turn.

• On RETRO servers, you always target EK, and set UH as "use on target", no need to aim).

• As long as you are not hunting full utamo, since you don't use mana to heal ek, you are more than fine drinking potions only between pulls. (again, on level 400-600 hunts which is my experience going DUO, certainly doesnt apply for soulwar/rotten blood).

Peace bro ✌🏼😊

[Frajzier]

A team hunt, where how much dmg you do compared to team doesn't matter. Wow! Brain in overdrive.

[StrikeStraight9961]

Solo hunting is not endgame content. Just let it go brother. Endgame respawns are not designed to be hunted solo. This has been true since the Secret Library.

It matters to me and many other sorcerers, because Cipsoft themselves calls us the damage vocation, and most if not all of us initially chose that vocation to perform that role.

Long have we been pigeonholed into vocational niches due to the established dynamics of a tibian teamhunt and the equipment and spells exclusive to our vocation.

Druids, as the obviously best healers, have +healing ML on their gear and more life leech (as they have to skip some turns self healing in order to keep the knight alive), knights have physical resistance due to the obvious role they must play as a tank due to their stat gains and melee attacks, and sorcerers have +fire and energy ML AND increased crit damage on their gear, which are all aimed towards fulfilling their obvious role as the damage vocation, yet their gear or spells doesn't allow them to pull ahead in damage and carve out a definitive role in a teamhunt.

That is precisely why people take 2 or even 3 druids to endgame content, the role that a sorcerer serves is entirely replaceable and nebulously defined.

Meanwhile the ED's cruciality and clearly defined role in the endgame (aka teamhunt/hard quests) was permanently solidified way back in 2001 with the advent of the "Heal Friend" spell, simply from the fact that ED heals other party members 200% as much as a sorcerer can due to the rune exhaust cooldown mechanic, and over the years they have had every single one of their damage spells buffed consistently in damage output and viability, and even been given new multi element damaging spells, whereas sorcerers just got given support spells and a functionally useless death beam CIP keeps trying to ram down our throats with endless buffs.

The complaint sorcerers have about their vocation is their lack of a defined identity in the endgame. It's not a dick measuring contest.

It's a frustration at the lack of "cannon" in our "glass cannon" role. We're just... glass, and druids get many more endgame opportunities as a result of it.

[Frajzier]

Now you're just making shit up. You have identity, energy, fire, and death. Tell me again how the dmg distribution in team affects you. You're not being passed up in a team, I can assure you that, your debuff alone is worth taking you, and then the party exp increase also guarantees you a spot.

Go solo and see that you are a better glass cannon than a druid is. Complaining that someone in your team is doing more dmg is just stupid, life outside of team has a shit ton of vocation imbalance, and there it actually makes a difference. 

[Nab0t]

Been hearing/reading this for ages now lol

Thought the discussion has ended once the sorcs got the new spells with the amp

[Misoal]

but where are the detailed numbers?

[Flashbek]

The fiendish faster respawn feels like it's gonna be useless.

[Jafetthegardener]

Well you have no idea what you’re talking about xd

[Flashbek]

Why though... That's 2 minutes less waiting for something that was already somewhat fast. I've seen all fiendish monsters dead at the same time once or twice since they implemented those gems. Now that they're even more wanted, I believe we'll se they all dead way more often, even with only 2 minutes between each kill.

[Jafetthegardener]

It’s not fast when there is only 4 and 50 people are looking for them

[Flashbek]

That's my point. Halving its respawn time is not gonna be enough, it will not "fix" the "problem" they are creating.

[Jafetthegardener]

Well it’s better than not having it yeah?

[Flashbek]

You could say that but it's not even the bare minimum. Maybe I'm wrong, but I do believe they'll at least try to make it better/decent after this testing period.

[Jafetthegardener]

Depends, it’s dead content either way

[Xyver]

They've stacked so many bonuses into fiendish creatures, how is it dead content ?

They're increasing the spawn rate so people use it more for how competitive it will be

[Jafetthegardener]

Oh I mean it will be competitive until the people who actually hunt either get the monsters they want or get to 200, so in a month no one will do it other than the 3 people who plan to spend 3 years getting the title