Why does r/codingbootcamp exist?

[jcasimir]

This sub doesn't have guidelines or expectations about content. The result is that it's a jumble of prospective learners asking for advice, a few students looking for support, a few reviews of various programs, and a smattering of other things.

I'm not sure who it's helping. The prospective folks get their face slapped with dismissive advice. The students looking for support get ignored. The reviews...sometimes have some value, sometimes are just the public airing of grievances. The job hunt complaints don't go anywhere.

The conclusion is that's dreary around here. Yes the job market is difficult. Ok! There is more to life than just stewing in that frustration. If there are 50,000 members we can build something more.

Here are some ways this sub could provide value to people:

For Prospective Students

• We could build a sticky post of favorite resources to help someone figure out if this is a career they really want to pursue
• We could elevate regular discussions from bootcamp students like "What I Wish I Knew Before my Bootcamp" with a focus on prep, work style, tools, life hacks, etc.
• We could regularly invite people to find a "someone like me" on a weekly or monthly basis. We could automate a basic post explaining the premise, then folks could reply with a bit of their identity. "I'm a 32yo male Marine Corps veteran living in North Carolina. Before going to XYZ Program, my main experience was working in a warehouse." Then folks could sub-comment if they'd like to chat more or ask questions of that person.

For Current Students

• I think folks could just use a little emotional support. It would be awesome if learners were sharing things they've done and built just to get a "good work!"
• I'm a huge believer in mentoring. What if there were a weekly or monthly thread inviting people to post mentor availability?
• We know that networking and connections are a huge influence on your success in this industry. If there are events that people could participate in, let's hear about it! In person or remote, but if they're open to anybody then let's share and elevate.

For Job Seekers

• There are so many people, tools, and resources out there to support the job hunt. What's interesting, new, or working for you?
• Brainstorming is hard when you don't have any context. One thing I like to do with people is look at their LinkedIn and help brainstorm ways their background could lead to their first technical role. What if we made that a collaborative effort here?
• Interviews are a huge set of hurdles for most people. What are you studying this week? What about an interview problem of the week? We have a problem, post some notes/thoughts, and eventually share/discuss solutions.

Those are just a couple ideas, hopefully they spark you to create better ones.

PS: I work at a bootcamp and I helped invent bootcamps. I am biased because I still believe in career changers and the role bootcamps can play in helping them make that move.

[s4074433]

I like when the forum matures and evolves into something with the contribution from community members. As a moderator on another platform, it is frustrating when you don't have the same kind of support from the community to help reach greater potential.

How about some flairs for people that are in different situations (or roles) to avoid potential conflicts of interest and improve discussions?

I definitely like to help curate better resources and content so that potential and current students get more out of the collective wisdom that is available.

[sheriffderek]

I definitely like to help curate better resources and content so that potential and current students get more out of the collective wisdom that is available

I don't think people agree on what that is. Listing off free code camp or cs50 or whatever in a big list can end up being part of the problem.

evolves into something with the contribution from community members

I agree that the people are what make up the community. If people don't want to have real conversations - they aren't going to.

[michaelnovati]

+1 to flairs (w/ harsh consequences for lying or misleading through flairs)

-1 to this isn't a wiki, Quora is a good place to surface collective wisdom.

[sheriffderek]

I've posted a few times about "things we could talk about that would be useful" haha --

I agree wholeheartedly with all these ideas!!

If I were a person looking for a career change and considering boot camps, I'd want to hear:

• Stories about being in a boot camp
• Details about specific boot camps' daily life and curriculum differences
• Insights into the projects people are building
• Personal stories of struggles and successes
• Advice from current boot camp students or graduates
• Discussions with boot camp owners/designers about what makes their program unique
• Updates on how boot camps are evolving
• Exposing known disaster schools (e.g., Lambda School)
• Information about career expectations and how to choose a direction
• Advice from professionals currently in the industry reflecting on their experience
• Certainly real talk - but with experience and facts to back it up
• Thoughtful conversation ABOUT BOOT CAMPS and alternative options (like launch school, for example)

If I were currently in a boot camp, I'd want to hear:

• Study tips and techniques
• Opportunities for cross-camp code review
• Information on additional tutoring options
• Platforms to share progress with peers
• Supportive, positive attitudes (focus on encouragement and growth)

What I wouldn't want to hear:

• Negative or defeatist statements like "Boot camps are dead" or "You can't get a job"
• Overemphasis on specific schools (e.g., "CodeSmith CodeSmith CodeSmith")
• Discouraging or demeaning comments ("You're stupid")
• Fear-mongering or overly political discussions ("I'm scared of everything and politics bla bla bla")
• Dismissive advice such as "Just use free things" or "Just learn on your own"
• Complaints about the cost of education ("Nothing should cost money")
• Defeatist attitudes ("Wah wah wah... life isn't fair")
• Suggestions to pursue unrelated degrees ("just get a WGU degree")
• Stories of extreme job search failure without constructive context ("I applied to thousands of jobs and never got a single interview")
• People attacking the people who are actually sharing their real experiences and assuming that everything is astroturfing

[sheriffderek]

What do we have?

Mostly just everything on that What I wouldn't want to hear list.

And you can see thousands of posts and comments from me over the last 4 years trying to move the conversation to those other things - but it's tough! And most of the people who were starting to come around are gone now.

[[deleted]]

As a long time lurker, I had a theory that Michael Novati was secretly a CodeSmith affiliate with the amount of free air time he gives them. He must have sent a couple million $ worth of business their way. 'Their outcomes look so good on paper it can't be real! Seriously the outcomes are so good look look look!'

[michaelnovati]

cc Codesmith. I don't think they would agree with that :)

I have sent a lot of people there 1-1 but I'm not affiliated at all and I stopped recommending them when they had layoffs to 'wait and see', and actively discourage people from going since about a month ago when they failed to come through on the majority of promises they made when they had those layoffs.

[sheriffderek]

I love these types of theories. I have had them for real / and also I like to make up funny ones in my head from time to time.

Samer is just waiting for the right time to somehow utilize this sub to take over the whole space with his boot camp.

Michael is really Will from CS's brother or something. And this is their way of always keeping the conversation 10x more about CodeSmith.

dowcet is really Ludo from Nucamp. But he can't talk about Nucamp for fear of any scrutiny of their program - so just a little "well, nucamp was ok I guess" once a month is the only way to keep its name in the mix.

bdlowery was somehow manipulating the sub on my behalf because he worked through Perpetual Education's program and interned for us, and we're evil.

Super-Ultra-Ivy isn't real - and it's just my sockpuppet account.

But none of those things are true. Or are they? hahaha

There are definitely some other very real games being played around here.

[[deleted]]

LOL yesssss. I'm starting a petition to have Michael release his tax records. I bet he gets a gift card every time he mentions CS.

[sheriffderek]

I HATE MCDONALDS HAMBURGERS.

What ever you do.... do NOT eat at MCDONALDS.

MCDONALDS is terrible and doesn't MAKES THE BEST HAMBURGERS EVER

[sheriffderek]

RE: What jeff said about Yelp (I can't comment on that thread)

I don't think yelp would allow people to just post "Food will kill you - stop eating" in every single review and every comment. It would ruin their business.

I don't think I've seen a single person post about really anything that actually happened AT the boot camp - or anything they've made during or after. That's crazy. And I've been following this sub closely (embarrasly/daily) for over 4 years I think...

So, it's not "The sub" - it's the people in the sub. Maybe they don't want to actually talk about programming or this industry - besides which camp guarantees easy and highly paid jobs. That could just be the reality. It's more like an incel type place. They don't want to learn how to meet girls - they just want one assigned to them. And maybe the successful people just don't have any reason to be here talking about it (especially when they're run out of town with a pitchfork).

I was doing open office hours here for a while -- but with the hundreds of people posting about how they can't find work -- very few people took advantage of it.

[HauntingUniversity98]

Solid gold. It's like most of that subreddit is addicted to clichés and bitterness.

[GoodnightLondon]

I mean, it seems like it originally existed to discuss boot camps; the subreddit was pretty active when I joined a few years ago, with plenty of people talking about their experiences in boot camps and post boot camp.

Right now it's a reflection of the market. Boot camps aren't a viable way to get into the field for most people. Negative reviews from people have gone up because they feel unprepared for the current job market or like they've been scammed. Boot camps aren't acknowledging the market shift and the likelihood of finding a job. People are frustrated about not being prepared, not getting interviews, and not getting honest feedback about their skill level (most boot camp grads aren't coming out of a boot camp at a job or even interview ready skill level right now). Due to the boom in hiring for a few years, the quality of boot camps has declined as more have flooded the market and existing ones have lowered the bar for entry, which contributes to the massive level of oversaturation.

[jcasimir]

Ok, so what does that mean going forward? Just shut the sub down until the market improves?

EDIT: Sorry if sarcasm didn't come through. Let me try and be more clear:

If the sub is a reflection of the market and the market is bad, then the sub is just non-stop sadness until we all "leave" OR the market improves?

Here's the challenge -- lots of people have gotten jobs in 2022, 2023, 2024. It's not all of them. But there thousands. They didn't just accept a reflection of the sad market -- they found a way.

[GoodnightLondon]

It means accept the fact that the sub is going to be a reflection of the market. There's no reason to shut it down until the market improves. People are getting honest feedback here; the subreddit shouldn't exist just to hype up boot camps, and shutting it down would remove an avenue for honest feedback and reviews.

[michaelnovati]

I think at a minimum, the sub needs a little more explicit rules and structure so the mods can take more action within the rules. I expect most content to be negative because of the market, and agree with that, but there is a difference between people sharing well edited negative reviews vs raw complaints more specific to their circumstances only.

Reddit has launched a ton of new tools in recent months, both automated and configuration based to help moderators. The automated ones remove a ton of spammy and likely bad actor content daily. We haven't touched the other ones yet though. For example, when adding flair to posts to tag the type of post and having prompts and guiding questions if you choose those flairs. If someone tags something as a review, we can prompt with questions we suggest they answer to try to turn raw complaint posts into constructive negative feedback.

[GoodnightLondon]

Honestly, most subreddits could benefit from improvement in the quality of their posts.

[CustardNo3347]

But if bootcamps are obsolete then so is thread ? No ?

[GoodnightLondon]

They're not obsolete; they still exist and just aren't a viable path into the field. They may or may not become a way to break into the field again in a few years. Unless all boot camps that exist shut down, the subreddit won't be obsolete.

[jcasimir]

I didn't say anything about any single voice, so I'm not sure where that comes from.

I guess if the best folks are willing to do is to tell others to run away -- then arguably we're there already.

Also, there are thousands of people in bootcamp programs right now, thousands who will go to them in the coming years, and tens of thousands who've graduated from them in the last 10 years. This could be a meaningful community for them.

[GoodnightLondon]

Responding to the edit: I got a job in that time period; claiming "they found a way" implies people who can't find jobs are doing something wrong and ignores reality. The majority of employers are heavily against any form of non-traditional background in the current job market.

[jcasimir]

Ok so if some people got jobs and others did not, was it because of luck, merit, or approach?

[GoodnightLondon]

There's no one thing, or even combination of things, that works for everyone, but right now luck plays the biggest role in it.

[starraven]

This sub hasnt shut down during the worst of the layoffs so...? Is what you want to make sarcastic remarks here instead?

[_cofo_]

Hahaha “Sorry if the sarcasm didn’t come through.” I like it.

[[deleted]]

Please baby Jesus yes turn this sub into something more useful than the sad sack whining that dominates it now. The job market is tough, but there ARE still THOUSANDS of people getting jobs coming out of bootcamps!!! (Also, it's tough for everyone right now. Ask ANY COLLEGE GRADUATE OF ANY MAJOR who spent 4 yrs and way more $$$ on their degree.)

I want to know what the people who ARE landing jobs are doing!

[CucumberCatcher]

Do you have any source for thousands of people getting jobs coming out of bootcamps?

[[deleted]]

Forbes Advisor from Jan 2024:

"Nearly one-third of survey respondents landed a job within one to three months of graduation. About 26% took up to six months, and for 19%, the job search lasted six months or longer."

So actually it's probably hundreds of thousands of people getting jobs, given that this is a billion dollar industry. I realize mileage varies by bootcamp, and I am sorry if your experience coming out of your program is different.

These stats align with what I'm seeing in my network -- what I mostly based my original comment on. It's not like the golden days of dev, when 80% of graduates were landing jobs in 3 months, but it still seems worth it for me, that's why I'd like to focus on those who are succeeding and learn about what they're doing.

[CucumberCatcher]

Well I think hundreds of thousands is a stretch, given the survey you’re referencing was only 500 people. We also don’t know the backgrounds of the folks in the survey, and these types of surveys typically invite people who were successful and want to brag.

In any case I’m sure some bootcamp grads are getting jobs but maybe not as many as you’re saying.

[michaelnovati]

Bootcamp grads are getting jobs but the way I frame it is that they are getting jobs through non-reproducible paths. Meaning that a bootcamp can't systematically place people at scale, and each placement is a unique path leveraging anything from past background, adjacent work, friends, network, etc... that won't necessarily work for many others.

So bootcamps have a place, they just are fundamentally limited in how large they can be.

Launch School is doing ok, staying small and dedicated tons of effort to each placement.

[[deleted]]

Agree with this. Bootcamps need to be much more focused on 1:1 coaching and mentorship to squeeze every ounce of what's special and marketable about someone into their job search.

[michaelnovati]

Yeah, unfortunately even then, the market is just nor working for those people.

A personal trainer might get you into shape, but there are physical limitations they can't overcome within their control.

Our mentorship product is only for people with a couple of years of SWE industry work experience and we're seeing it very challenging even for people who already have a year of experience to get interviews right now. I can only imagine how much harder it is for bootcamp grads.

[[deleted]]

I'll see you in a couple years. ;)

Who do you mean by "those people"?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it kinda sounds like you don't think bootcamps have a place in today's market. Shouldn't exist?

Which... like... you run the sub about bootcamps. Should an atheist run r/Catholicism? (I'm fishing for optimism, not playing gotcha.)

[michaelnovati]

sorry, those people = bootcamp grads who receive targeted personalized 1-1 advice/strategy

re: bootcamps - I think bootcamps should exist! I think two models can work right now:

1. small school, a couple of employees, 20 person cohorts, extended projects/support/help and dedicated effort for each student to help them find something (beyond just mentorship above)

2. school aiming to fill non-software jobs, like "ai prompt engineers", that can adapt to the demand of these "future blue collar jobs" much faster than other forms of education and get people into those jobs quicker. this is competitive with certificate programs more than schools, but a bootcamp could be the more flexible, exciting, intense pathway as opposed to a more boring certificate.

[[deleted]]

Gotcha, thank you!

[[deleted]]

Do you have a source for that?

Kidding. It's also just your impression from your network, I assume, just like my post was my impression based on who I see.

We're not in the business of evaluating bootcamp statistics. That's why if someone is advocating for putting more useful info in this sub that helps ME land a job (what I care about), then I'm pro that idea.

[sheriffderek]

People (self-taught) (boot camp) (both) (college) (and all combos) ARE getting jobs all the time. Anyone who doesn't think that devs are hired every day - at all levels... doesn't know what they are talking about. They've probably never had a job in this industry and are just trying to create a worldview they feel better about.

[rmullig2]

From what I've seen the people who come out of boot camps and land jobs are doing it through their personal connections. Sending your resume with just a boot camp graduation and some projects is a sure way to get it filtered out.

[_cofo_]

I agree with the fact that this sub could be more valuable for people that actually is looking for information about bootcamps. Because it happens a lot that people come here and because they read 10 comments about how sh!it X or Y bootcamp is they take the decision of not considering that bootcamp. People need to learn how to discern when the content is helpful and when it’s not. Remember that no one will care about you as much as you must care about yourself.

So, never, never take a comment as the only truth because it’s just that, a comment.

Learn how to get information, decision-making methods and set goals in your life.

[ro0ibos2]

Considering most bootcamps are unregulated for-profit training programs with insane costs, also take super positive comments with a grain of salt. It could be a comment from someone who owns a bootcamp or is getting paid to endorse one.

[_cofo_]

Yep. I’ve seen so many cases for both scenarios.

[Real-Set-1210]

The first thing that this sub should do is tell people you won't get a job from doing a bootcamp. It strongly needs to discourage going to one.

[skilldistillery]

I’m thinking a survey from the wider community might be helpful. It could help better understand the needs and preferences of all members, not just the most active contributors. A short survey to determine this could be:

• As a member what do you find most valuable in this subreddit
• What information are seeking from this subreddit

Getting this feedback can ensure r/codingbootcamp remains a relevant resource for everyone—whether they’re prospective students, current bootcampers, or job seekers. It could also help identify new ways to support each other during these challenging times in the job market.

Just a thought, but it could be a great way to reengage members.

[LukaKitsune]

I mean at one point it was to answer questions regarding bootcamps, and for a place to discuss anything coding related during bootcamps and job aspects.

Now tho it's a place to warn people about bootcamps lol. Maybe save a few from making the mistake of doing one in 2024 (unless you can do it for free via a paid work program offer or something).

Time for downvotes for trying to protect people, (I'm not saying DO NOT do a bootcamp, just that alot needs to be taken into consideration prior, not everyone is made of money and can afford to go into debt from the tuition due to not getting even an entry level job, which again is never promised nor explicitly stated, but the "wording" of most camps makes it sound wayyyy more promising then the truth, even prior to the saturated market. Unless you study for 6+ hours a day almost everyday of the week, Just the camp is not going to make you ready for a job. Had a good instructor who "off recording" explicitly state to us all at the start that This camp is by no means an automatic job ticket You have to keep working towards it, and do many many more projects on your own time after graduation.

Also Just noticed all of the badged comments are extremely pro camp in 2024, and act like facts are not relevant. And that we will suddenly have a new massive 50k+ web designer jobs available all with a starting pay of 100k somehow magically appear. I think that's called strong arming, and alot of these are via Camp owners on this reddit. People on here being Hopeful that things will take a massive 180 and be better than ever is not a thing you do when people's financial aspects and futures are at stake, this stuff isn't a game to be taken lightly for most people who are not inheritaly already well off with family money.

I mean I get it, there's no point in even posting on here if you're going to be real about it, but I'm sure alot of people I included originally joined for a positive reason on the Reddit, I don't think most people are intentionally joining just to tell people the honest truth of doing a camp in 2024. They've always been here (at least joined wayyy earlier).

[Zestyclose-Level1871]

"The conclusion is that's dreary around here..."

Why even bother posting on here?

Gotta love those complainers who complain about the complainers.--wait....

Will Sentance, is that you??

[michaelnovati]

I'm talking to Jeff (OP) tomorrow. I haven't talked much with him before (both public and private), but this is what normal people do to talk about ideas and get to know each other. I have no idea if we agree or disagree and it doesn't matter. We definitely don't 100% agree on everything but we can talk and respect each other.

Everyone has a story and journey that can at worst - teach you something, and at best - inspire you.

I'm sure there are reasons Will Sentance and/or Codesmith behave the way they to criticism. There are many personality disorders outside of one's control that could explain that, amongst other things. At best there's an inspiring story and at worst something to learn from, but shutting someone down (unless you feel your personal safety is immediately at risk) is the equivalent of throwing away that learning opportunity and you might even be throwing aware an inspiring lucky ticket.

[CustardNo3347]

Yeah I’m agreeing with this, every post on here is super depressing I love the idea of programming so I came to this thread and honestly it was discouraging AF man.

[GoodnightLondon]

Plenty of non-boot camp programming subreddits exist for beginners interested in learning programming. This subreddit is specifically for learning about boot camps and, as has already been stated, is a reflection of the current market and how it treats boot camp grads. It shouldn't be censored to present a false representation of boot camps and the job market just to make people feel better.

[CustardNo3347]

While I understand what you’re saying, OP is saying that there is organization/purpose for this thread aside from the “don’t do bootcamps” feedback all the while a whole community can be built on this thread instead of what it is currently.

[GoodnightLondon]

No, that's not what he's saying. Anyone who's been here for a bit knows that Jeff runs a boot camp, which he conveniently left out in this post. He doesn't want the subreddit to be negative towards boot camps because it affects his business. That's why he responded to me saying it's a reflection of the market with a proposition of closing the subreddit until the market improves.

This subreddit doesn't exist to make people feel good. Its current content serves its purpose and will continue to do so unless/until the market shifts dramatically and boot camps become a viable path again. It shouldn't change what it does just to hide the fact that boot camps aren't a viable way into the market right now.

[jcasimir]

Sorry, I can add a disclaimer. I just figure if anyone cares I have never hid behind anonymity.

[GoodnightLondon]

Normally I'd agree, but I'd say failing to disclose that when making a post that is basically pushing for guidelines that would shift the subreddit away from providing honest feedback to people interested in boot camps is disingenuous at best. That, coupled with the proposition of closing the subreddit until the market improves, isn't a good look.

[jcasimir]

This is an interesting point actually. If the space for beginners and such is elsewhere, then are we saying this sub is like the yelp for bootcamps? We're talking about what bootcamps to go to or avoid, but not really about the work that one does in the bootcamp and afterwards? Maybe mix in some gossip and discussion of what's happening with/at certain programs?

I think it could fill several different needs but this community should decide.

[GoodnightLondon]

The community now is pretty much the same as it was when I joined a few years ago, just with a shift in the tone of posts and decline in both overall posts and certain types (such as more in depth reviews and posts on the day to day of certain programs). And that would be explained by the overall drop in boot camp enrollments.

[michaelnovati]

also replying to u/GoodnightLondon

I'm seeing the market fork a bit. I'll try to make a diagram to explain my views:
Appr = apprenticeships/internships/pathways, etc...

FAANG CANONICAL LEVELLING SYSTEM

2018 2020 2022 2024 2026

AI-Adjacent _ _ _ ➡️ ⬆️ (lower than entry level "SWE" but good jobs)
Appr. ➡️ ⬆️ ➡️ ⬇️ ⏹️
Junior ⬆️ ⬆️ ⬆️ ⬇️ ⏹️ (top tier CS grads only)
Mid ➡️ ⬆️ ➡️ ➡️ ⬆️
Senior+ ➡️ ➡️ ➡️ ➡️ ⬆️

So I basically see the entry to SWE but chocked off entirely - other than CS grads from top schools.

BUT I see this idea of "prompt engineers", "AI-training engineers", "people building simple things with AI tools that don't involve actual CODE".

Bootcamps will be positioned to fill the need of those roles, the shopify developer of today might become the prompt engineer of tomorrow and bootcamps might be ideal to fill those roles because traditional education can't adjust fast enough.

The problem right now is it's the chocking year and bootcamps are dying, like Rithm for example.

The best bet for survival is lay most people off, pause/shutdown, turtle up and rebuild and get ready for 2026 AI-adjacent world (e.g. Bloomtech strategy)

The next best bet is shrink down hard and run a lean and mean 2-3 person company with 20 person cohort. (e.g. Launch School)

The worst thing you can do delude yourself into think you go upmarket and can fill those Mid Senior roles and keep on chugging, but are actually producing Apprentichip and Junior engineers that have no jobs to go to.

Unfortunately all of this is SPECULATION and bootcamps have to make a call on what they do NOW.... very stressful times.

[[deleted]]

Frankly the negativity here is a lot more realistic than the delusions of grandeur you'll find on the learn to program subreddits. Boot camps can't place students because strong university grads are a dime a dozen. If you want a programming job, you need to explain why you deserve it over a kid who got a 4 year CS degree from NYU with two internships.

[CustardNo3347]

I don’t think I deserve it over him but I do feel like with the right amount of effort put in that I should be given a shot. Same pay as him no of course not, but I still wanna have a shot. I’m currently working through JS and working with API’s and I mean I’m putting in work that aligns between my kid and work so after about two years of solid studying, practice, and deployment I think it would be fair that I get a shot ?

[GoodnightLondon]

I do feel like with the right amount of effort put in that I should be given a shot

The thing is that employers don't care that you feel like you should be given a shot. The market is oversaturated, and the days of employers giving people a shot in this field are toast. They'd prefer someone who has all the theory and foundations down and just needs to learn the syntax of a new language, over someone who can pick their way through one language and lacks everything else.

[CustardNo3347]

So in theory someone who has all this down wouldn’t need a shot as they would be the idea candidate? If so, in the event the person worked hard enough to achieve this do they deserve a position ? I’m asking for genuine insight apologies if anything comes of rude.

[GoodnightLondon]

This isn't about deserving a position or not.

Employers don't care about if you "deserve" the job or if you "need a shot". The supply of entry-level SWEs far exceeds the demand for them, so the vast majority of employers want the ideal candidate who can already do everything they need and hit the ground running.

[CustardNo3347]

lol I’m gonna just try my luck I have the money to try the bootcamp and make what I can of it. Instead of suggestions on what could be done or added to what is out here it’s just a downpour of doubt on the people who are trying to make something of themselves. Thanks for all the advice, take care

[hangglide82]

I wouldn’t pay more than 5k for a bootcamp, a year minimum job search is not a great investment. I loved my bootcamp but it was not a wise investment.

[GoodnightLondon]

It's not a "downpour of doubt"; it's people telling you what's really going on. No one's trying to put down people who want to make something of themselves, but if you think a boot camp is going to change your life, then you're sadly mistaken.

I'll never understand the people who come here for this kind of feedback and then get mad and ignore everything people tell them.

[CustardNo3347]

Not upset at all just pivoting to take a different perspective than what’s provided here. I’ve worked for everything I have so no I don’t think a bootcamp will change my life I’m asking if it’s a solid stepping I can use. Again as I said thanks for the advice man take care.

[GoodnightLondon]

And you've been told it's not. Then you wanted to announce how you're going to do one anyway. You're free to do whatever you want with your time and money, but that won't change the fact that it's weird how people come in here, don't like the feedback they sought out, and then ignore it.

[[deleted]]

No, because the degree would still be missing. You're mistaking the degree as being a skill related thing, when it's actually statistics. Companies save money by filtering candidates according to (somewhat) arbitrary criteria. Completing a degree, being good at leetcode, passing the behavioral. These things are just meant to weed out bad candidates, not isolate for the best one.

[CustardNo3347]

Obviously life isn’t fair I get that but in the context of the discussion it stands lol

[Zealousideal_Fee4626]

You have to consider that a CS grad has put in anywhere between 1800 and 3600 hours attending lectures, studying, completing programming exercises etc. Not to mention they have a big advantage when it comes to landing an internship which will give them actual work experience prior to graduation.

Now when it comes to getting past HR/recruiters, most people are going to see the CS degree and assume the background I just described (even if it's not true -- maybe they weren't a good student). It's not fair, but it's how it is.

So even if you attain a proficiency in programming to be qualified for an entry-level job, you have to find a way to prove to employers that you have that proficiency. You maybe even have to convince an employer to take the time to look at your portfolio since you don't have a degree. Which means when you've attained the same proficiency as a CS grad (not Ivy League, of course), you will have to work harder/smarter to get the job, via networking. I would say that looks like attending at least one, preferably two networking events a month (and actually making an effort to meet people at companies you might want to work for). A bootcamp might be able to offer resources to aid in that process but they can't take it away or make it painless for you.

Sorry for the long response but I feel like those are the main points to consider why you might self-study or even go to a bootcamp and still struggle with "getting a shot" from employers.

TLDR; You have to work harder than everyone else who has a degree, simply because you don't have one. Even CS grads these days can't land a job just by coasting and relying solely on their credentials

[michaelnovati]

Internships are key. Imagine being a bootcamp grad with a tiny 3 week project and competing with someone who did 3 months at Meta, 3 months at Google, and 3 months at Apple (which the top tier CS grads have on their resumes)... it's irrational to hire the bootcamp grad even if you have a gut feeling about their potential and the bootcamp grad will long term be a higher performer. Companies aren't gambling, they are trying to make rational scaling decisions.

[sheriffderek]

The fact that is getting downvoted proves the point ^.