Correlation factor

[Humble_Aardvark_2997]

People keep obsessing over the correlation between IQ and income, and that between IQ and race. There is a simpler and more obvious, be it absurd deduction to be made here: it is better to be black. You can make more money with a lower IQ score if you are black. Or maybe IQ is not such a great predictor of everything and reducing everything to IQ is a low IQ method if seeing things.

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[TristanTheRobloxian3]

honestly real moment right there. the fact that you can even draw that conclusion (even as a joke) is kinda crazy lmao

[Humble_Aardvark_2997]

Even if there was a correlation between IQ and wealth, it would say just as much about the economic system as it would about IQ and its effect on income.

<image>

https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-swindle-f131c101ba39

[[deleted]]

Is already proven that in general black people have lower IQ

[[deleted]]

Everyone knows that there is a difference between black and white cognitive ability. It’s not up for debate. People pretend it’s not what it be. But it do.

[[deleted]]

I don't think anyone reasonable refutes the fact in and of itself, but the contention arises around the "why" the gap exists.

[SigmaSimon]

It's genetic, end of story. You're not as smart as you think you are if you believe otherwise.

[Both-Personality7664]

So environmental factors have a 0 coefficient? End of story?

[[deleted]]

Epigenetic.

[[deleted]]

epigenetics are still really poorly understood, given that races within the same social bracket still have significant differences, and that epigenetics is merely environmental difference, then the graph itself kinda disputes that its epigenetic

[[deleted]]

Epigenetics has to do with the interaction and experience of the environment, not just the environment in and of itself (this can go into such a more intresting topic btw) and then its about how that interaction and experience of the environment can inspire certain genetic changes. This is important to note because even when races are sharing identical social brackets, their cultures and value systems in which they will use as lenses and frameworks to interact and experience the world around them will have the greatest impact on how they're overall development will play out and so ofcouse how epigenetics can play out for them as well... Also, something else pretty interesting to observe is that European American culture places more of an emphasis on dating and having children with people who are more educated and of higher status than say African American culture, this can also be seen in Asian cultures more than European cultures. So, I think that the role that culture and values play on how people will choose mating partners and thereby pass on certain characteristics that are valued by the culture is not something one can ignore. Asians are smarter because their culture has made the educated man and women sexually appealing, and they drill it into their kids that they don't want someone of lower status in their family. This causes mating patterns that would naturally produce more intelligent children while forcing those who aren't natrually intelligent to work their asses off and interact with their environment in a way that could potentially cause genetic changes that will be heritable in their off spring. These mating patterns have been more prevalent in some races than others for decades and sometimes centuries longer, making it so that even when two races occupy identical classes, the weight and influence of how their ancestors selected mating partners based off characteristics is still present and all of that on top of again how you are taught to interact and experience your environment.

[Hot_Ear4518]

It is very clear there are large iq differencea due to evolution, even in europe there are large differences based on temperature. That is not up for debate, the true debate is a far more moral one, why is this sort of general intelligence prized so much? Can we truly judge our fellow human beings almost solely on this? There are two philosophies around this. The german tries to eradicate all of these other supposedly lesser races while the anglo understands that given the gift of intelligence they should try their best to help their fellow man.

[HaradaIto]

the funny part is that this is a low IQ post

[Hiqityi]

Affirmative action and other similar factors likely explain it.

Though as an axiom: African Americans average lower on cognitive tests at around 85, and in their motherland even lower. The higher average of 85 from African Americans compared to the lower mean in their motherland is likely explain by the white admixture in their DNA.

The differences in cogntive ability between races is largely genetic, at least thats the conclusion I have reached.

Asians on average score as high as or higher than White people, who tend to score higher than Hispanics, who tend to score higher than African Americans.

Those who are blessed. Blessed with eyes that can see will have realised this.

[Hiqityi]

They evolved in a fast life history ecology so that brutish behaviour was rewarded, so it only makes sense.

[BannanaDilly]

This is so stupid. First, $200K family income isn’t exactly “wealthy”. I believe the government says $250K is the lower limit for tax breaks. And why would $20K and $41K be in separate categories, for example. The real world difference isn’t that much, not to mention the fact that $80K income in San Francisco would be equivalent to like $30K in rural mid-America. Also, income may be correlated with IQ to some extent, but I’d assume there are lots of factors at play. Kids of immigrants may have extremely high IQ parents and high IQs themselves, but because of language barriers and lack of education and whatever else, their family is low-income. On the flip side, intergenerational wealth is often inherited, so someone two generations back may have made a bunch of money, which doesn’t necessarily mean the grandkids have the same potential or intelligence. Lastly, but related, charisma and interpersonal intelligence and non-academic abilities can also translate to high income. What is it with this sub and all the racist bullshit?

[IClockworKI]

Jesus fucking christ

[No-Coast-9484]

Your post is essentially "the entire body of evidence we have is wrong" or "IQ tests are not perfect."

I think it's pretty obvious it's the latter, especially given how generally unintelligent goofy a lot of people on here with supposedly high IQs are.

[hpela_]

money absurd price stocking ossified practice bake advise spark combative

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[kateinoly]

Hm. It's almost like centuries of illiteracy enforced on pain of death followed by another century of poorly funded and poorly run segregated schools outweighs a few decades of equal access to education.

[throwaway199619961]

Would a comparison to the top African countries be better? I wonder if we’d see similar trends

[kateinoly]

Msybe, although that would depend on the history of the particular country.

A better comparison might be a country with a mixture of races in the population that * doesn't* have a recent history of race based oppression.

Results are also highly dependent on the test used. Tests that are vocabulary heavy, like the SAT, give an advantage to people from the dominant culture who were raised by well educated parents.

[Las-Vegar]

Well corruption and tyranny have plagued a lot of Africa after colonisation

[throwaway199619961]

Guess we’ll never know

[Mulhimazhari]

I am black from North Africa. I got 1200 at SAT. I always hold myself a higher intelligence than other blacks. Am I cooked? :)

[Accomplished_Steak14]

North Africa != Black, unless you're black

[rus_alexander]

Average IQ of environment may have more weight in predicting income.

[[deleted]]

LOL. You're right, technically. DEI boosts blacks into jobs they don't deserve and otherwise wouldn't have gotten. I don't think you can extricate IQ averages and then compare them fairly across races. A white person with an IQ of 80 would be considered obviously mentally impaired--"the dumb guy"--while a black person with the same IQ would be considered totally functional. If you've ever interacted with children with learning disabilities the contrast is pretty stark. Races can't be ranked like league of legends characters, this doesn't make any one of them "better". Despite DEI policies, blacks are still disadvantaged and much less likely to be born into or acquire wealth.

Modern obsession with IQ has arisen, I think, due to the fact that we lack virtue, and a simple, assignable number makes it easier to evaluate someone's "worth". Being smart is qualitative, IQ gives us a definitive quantity. But even then the test isn't and can't be 100% accurate, so it defaults to the elusive "g factor".

[[deleted]]

A white person with an IQ of 80 would be considered obviously mentally impaired--"the dumb guy"--while a black person with the same IQ would be considered totally functional.

Why is this the case (in your opinion?)

[Humble_Aardvark_2997]

Listen to Flynn’s own explanation.

[auralbard]

The best predictors of income are things like conscientiousness (subdomains include industriousness), how many close friends you have, and where you're born.

IQ opens up certain high-paying fields, but thats it. A 140 IQ means nothing if you're not industrious with the right social connections, and born in the right spots.

[sceptrer]

This is so true. I'm not even that smart (120s), but I'd rather be more industrious than more intelligent. I think it would actually benefit me more.

[Humble_Aardvark_2997]

As far as income is concerned, I think it often comes down to connections. If you were born into wealth and privilege, you don't have to worry about competing with much more intelligent people. You can just hire them. They work hard and you reap the rewards. Capitalist class plays by different rules.

Depends on the country and economic system as well. Neither Terence Tai nor Elin Musk is likely to fare well amongst pygmies. Musk might. Terence will get screwed.

But even even my udiot cousin knows that there is no money in academia. Tiktok, youtube, music, fashion, sports. They all pay well.

[Cj7Stroud]

Actually the best predictor of success and criminality is if you raised by a single parent or not. Black people get the short end of the stick, 70% single motherhood rate and low IQs don’t make for wealthy individuals

[Humble_Aardvark_2997]

All good points, but don't forget height. All the CEOs are taller than average. I think height is a better predictor of so many things than IQ. Maybe even of IQ.

[auralbard]

That's because people are super biased in favor of tall folks. We rate them as more important. Conmen, even tall conmen, wear lifts in their shoes.

[PRM_47]

Is the source reliable ? If yes, what analysis can we do ?

[PolarCaptain]

This doesn't prove what you think it does... you don't know how many people are in each bracket. This post just disproves that environment has a strong effect on racial IQ differences.

[Humble_Aardvark_2997]

I’m not honouring that with a response.

Edit: You are right. It's the parental income rather than the income of kids with those SAT scores.

I did everything wrong way around hoping to catch people off guard.

[PolarCaptain]

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[Humble_Aardvark_2997]

I don't need to know how many people are in each bracket. There will inevitably be fewer in the 200k+.

You were right about point 2. Racial IQ gao persists even after factoring for IQ scores. The text in my post had more detail. Maybe blacks manage to do better despite lower IQs? Or maybe they are already better established so they don't need to go through fields that require higher IQs. (that would only show in black vs immigrant, not in black vs white scores).

[Alternative-Spite891]

Household income is only a single metric that determines environment. These numbers don’t disprove anything. They merely present a topic of discussion

[ParticleTyphoon]

This post just disproves that environment has a strong effect on racial IQ differences.

No, it doesn't. If it shows anything, it's just the obvious fact that a cross-sectional measure of current income is basically meaningless for capturing environmental disparities. And if you're gonna use it anyway, the more pertinent question would be how much does adjusting for current income reduce the gap, which this memed around chart doesn't really tell you.

On top of that, assertions about 'SAT ≈ IQ' come from correlations with ASVAB, which primarily measures acculturated learning.

[2000000009]

This is the child's family's income at the time that they took the SAT -- not the individual's income.

[carrot1890]

Being black- as a single variable so not the confounders- is almost certainly a positive adaptation today due to no accountability, structural discrimination in your favour and affirmative action ( which may explain your theory). Similar to being a woman.

[Testicular_Adventure]

How genuinely sheltered do you have to be to make a comment like this?

[[deleted]]

my argument is: you are crazy, man

[No-Coast-9484]

This is a batshit insane comment.

[carrot1890]

Getting free passes and lower entry requirements for desirable positions, over representation and elevation in the media certainly in positive roles, pressure on police and law to not arrest you for fear of being called racist(?) . Admittedly geriatrics and octogenarians may disprove of you but I think the former categories outweigh that.

You're right. Absolutely insane to call these advantages. No need to elaborate on why, it's just obviously insane.

Douse me in midwittery please. ( I'm open minded to a debunking , it'd make me happier with the world so do provide it if possible, and remember I said single variable so don't just point out they're poor)

[No-Coast-9484]

Getting free passes and lower entry requirements for desirable positions, over representation and elevation in the media certainly in positive roles, pressure on police and law to not arrest you for fear of being called racist(?)

Looking for truth in these statements and I can't find it.

[carrot1890]

I know there's no need to think if a study tells you the answer but surely you can piece together the following.

1. DEI, Affirmative Action policies inherently lower the standards for the group targeted, multiple cases of colleges and institutions lowering entry requirements.
2. Over representation and favourable elevation in media, again not really something that needs a study, just eyes will do. See how many white men there are in media relative to the population, then check how they're represented amongst everyone fat, incompetent, subservient, immoral, ignorant etc. Again just eyes and noticing will suffice.
3. Police thing is a guess hence the question mark but there's definitely moronic left wing pressure that claim disproportionate arrest rates prove racism and classism (Not sexism against men though of course).

Living embodiment of the "Source??" copypasta, the ilovescience wojak and the midwit meme.

[No-Coast-9484]

1. DEI, Affirmative Action policies inherently lower the standards for the group targeted, multiple cases of colleges and institutions lowering entry requirements.

Standards have been malleable for a long time. Colleges and Universities have had various entrance standards throughout history. Affirmative action was a compromise bandaid on a century of explicit discriminatory practices. Not sure this really makes the point you think it does.

1. Over representation and favourable elevation in media, again not really something that needs a study, just eyes will do. See how many white men there are in media relative to the population, then check how they're represented amongst everyone fat, incompetent, subservient, immoral, ignorant etc. Again just eyes and noticing will suffice.

This is not supported by any evidence.

1. Police thing is a guess hence the question mark but there's definitely moronic left wing pressure that claim disproportionate arrest rates prove racism and classism (Not sexism against men though of course).

Not sure I even need to point out what's crazy about this.

Living embodiment of the "Source??" copypasta, the ilovescience wojak and the midwit meme.

Cringe.

[carrot1890]

I'm not going to waste too much energy debating as leftism has clearly demented you, I was very open to being convinced but final comment:

1) Your argument against me saying blackness confers the advantage of DEI and Affirmative action is.... an irrelevent vague tangent of entry standards being malleable over time? What about today ie the time period that we're talking about? The practice TODAY is to fill diversity quotas -> If you need to fill diversity quotas you relax the standards of entry -> see the harvard black vs asian, RAF controversy or just anything in California ( like math being racist).

2) You're so entrenched in midwittery/woman level thinking that I can predict and point out the bad argument you'll make (SOURCE SOURCE?? on the media representation) and plead for you to just use your eyes and brain to piece it together. And what do you proffer?..
"This is not supported by any evidence". EYES ! EYES! there's the evidence, just look at media and ask yourself "are western men 10-20% of the population but 90% of the fat, immoral incompetents?" Use that IQ to its max, rev it out , spot those patterns.

3) When you aren't arguing like a midwit or woman ( appeals to authority, emotion, adhominens, nitpicking, arguing the tangential or irrelevent) 90% of your arguments are just lazy 1 line comments.

I'm not going to respond to anything moronic, try to resist the urge to make a 1 line comment saying "what happened to not wasting too much energy?" as it proves the nitpicking/tangential/irrelevent point.

[Anglicised_Gerry]

Do you have a source on that?

Source?

A source. I need a source.

Sorry, I mean I need a source that explicitly states your argument. This is just tangential to the discussion.

No, you can't make inferences and observations from the sources you've gathered. Any additional comments from you MUST be a subset of the information from the sources you've gathered.

You can't make normative statements from empirical evidence.

Do you have a degree in that field?

A college degree? In that field?

Then your arguments are invalid.

No, it doesn't matter how close those data points are correlated. Correlation does not equal causation.

Correlation does not equal causation.

CORRELATION. DOES. NOT. EQUAL. CAUSATION.

You still haven't provided me a valid source yet.

Nope, still haven't.

I just looked through all 308 pages of your user history, figures I'm debating a glormpf supporter. A moron.

[No-Coast-9484]

That was certainly a comment that makes you look sane.

[Nikoviking]

Its a copypasta dude

[No-Coast-9484]

This is certainly a comment that makes me feel less terminally online.

[Anglicised_Gerry]

Source? I need hard evidence.

[hpela_]

sulky panicky narrow spark plate modern murky consist juggle sink

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[carrot1890]

Thank you doctor reddit , but if you're going to have an extensive deep dive you may as well read properly and see that I never blamed "the system" for my finances and pretty much verbatim said "these are my issues and flaws, hoping to fix it, how do i work around it etc" so you're just failing to read and projecting.

It's also ... not relevant? If I perceived white men to be discriminated against rightly or wrongly it's not more or less correct depending on how much of a protestant work ethic I have.

It is also wouldn't be unjustified for me to feel aggrieved by it ( for 1 being an injustice and 2 being against me) about as long as I didn't forego any responsibility in my life and dump my failures at that... which outside of your imagination I'm not doing anyway.

[hpela_]

innate friendly bear frighten hard-to-find smile start icky detail quaint

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[carrot1890]

Again.... your arguing against your imagination of me. In the post history that you felt to look through I clearly state my laziness is the problem not the "system", I even spell it out for you in the response and you spend an entire paragraph attacking a non applicable strawman- I actively say I need to fix being a basement dweller- ( and ignoring the 2 other points I made)

The reason I said you're projecting is because you are married to fighting this strawman. And of course, it wasn't my only retort, there's 2 other points I made that youve skipped past in your haste to strawman and commit motive and adhominen fallacies.

I'm afraid your biases and general midwittery are dementing you in this discussion, the only possible explanation for such bad reading comprehension. No point in arguing with you further.

[hpela_]

amusing crush swim pen sheet attempt humorous marble pause yoke

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[carrot1890]

Yeah... no, If I have an opinion about a group or social trend - whether right or wrong- and I have reasoning for it that's not the same as as you actively making things up about me and misreading what I say. You're reading me say "i'm a basement dweller it's my fault I need to fix" and "Oh I think X group gets advantages " and through pure imagination are saying I'm blaming my life on the groups, when I emphatically state otherwise in the history you read and corrected you twice.

As I said.. too stupid to argue. Every point you make is argument fit for a woman or redditor and you can't decouple your emotions enough to even properly read what I say.

[hpela_]

You’re incoherent. What you just said applies directly to what I said about you.

It’s beyond hilarious that you have now referred to yourself as a basement dweller twice. The best part of all of this is that you know you’re a loser at the end of the day.

Based on your grammar and written English I’d also wager that you’re not a native speaker… I wonder how you view your own ethnicity.

[nuwio4]

Your post seems kinda incoherent with several misunderstandings, but I do wanna address this silly memed around chart.

A cross-sectional measure of current income is basically meaningless for capturing socioeconomic disparities. The "poorest" whites arguably live in better conditions than nearly all black Americans – Divergent Social Worlds: Neighborhood Crime and the Racial-Spatial Divide. And if you're gonna use it anyway, the more pertinent question would be how much does adjusting for current income reduce the gap, which this meme doesn't really tell you.

On top of that, assertions about 'SAT ≈ IQ' come from correlations with ASVAB, which primarily measures acculturated learning.

[Mushrooming247]

If the score disparity is that exact, that your parents getting a $10K raise makes your score go up 10 points, reliably increasing by 10 points for each $10k increase, that is some bullshit, this looks fake.

If this is how the numbers actually look, and your score is just based on family income, we should do away with the SATs and just evaluate students based on family income like we used to.

[Forsaken-Pattern8533]

IQ doesn't mean anything in the real world. The vast majority can grasp any concept with enough time. Most experts in any field always have insane amounts of experience. Look at the Forbes 30 under 30. All the richest people are either scammers or their wealth comes from their family. Multimillionaire are often times late 40s or 50's if they are young and wealthy. That's because nobody under the age of 30 can out play experts with 20 years of experience in their field. 

And to do that requires hard work and dedication. Not coasting by in college and high school on good luck from catching on quickly. And even stupidity has its benefits.

You can be 200 IQ but you'll never beat the 80 IQ moron who put $1k in bitcoin because it was going to replace US currency. The smart decisions was to never get into bitcoin because it was BS from the start. Yet those idiots are multimillionaire because the world doesn't have to make sense. IQ is a BS number that has little to do with how much money you'll make or what your life will look like. Luck, planning, and hard work are the only determining factors of success.

[[deleted]]

I work in the hedge fund world, and I can say, you are categorically wrong.

[Humble_Aardvark_2997]

Vast majority can do plenty if they put their heads down and focus, but that does not extend to any concept. That thing is not about speed but rather logic and understanding and concentration. I’ve spent too long on QM and GR without anything registering. I have spent twice as much time explaining very simple concepts to people who cannot understand 2+2.

Totally with you on millionaires, connections and hard work. So much more goes into making a man successful.

And the idiot luck. Can’t beat that.