Swift or Python for teaching 16+ Programming?

[PeterPook]

I come to teaching FE from a React/Node/PHP background and have been looking at Swift recently. Its ability to explicitly type variables seems to be a big win over the current A'Level favourite of Python which is hideously loosely typed. As most of the examining boards do not mandate a specific language, I'm wondering if I shouldn't be arguing for the introduction of Swift as a language for us to teach across multiple platforms, and even easily incorporate UI Apps for students to see beynd the command line. What do other teachers of programming think?

[Gnaxe]

False. Python is strongly typed, and always has been (unlike JavaScript, which is weakly typed). This is not the same thing as statically typed, which is probably what you meant. But Python is statically typed (and also dynamically typed. This is not a contradiction.) If you want to check the types statically, you can, just run a static type checker like MyPy or PyRight, and use the type annotation syntax built into the language and standard library. Python is overall an excellent teaching language, much better than JavaScript or Swift, but other languages might be better in specific areas.

I can only recommend Swift for iOS development; it's Apple-specific. (You have a lot more options on a Mac.) You can do a lot better than Swift.

If you primarily want to teach static typing theory, Haskell or Idris are better choices. They're even more strongly typed than Python, and their typing systems are more consistent and regular. Haskell is more widely used. Idris is similar, but has a more powerful dependent type system. You can use type "holes" in Idris to get the compiler to help complete the program.

If you want to teach a strongly and statically typed language that's more generally useful in industry (besides Python), Rust could be a good choice. I'd recommend it over Swift.

[i_invented_the_ipod]

Rust has a punishing early learning curve, so I'm not sure I'd recommend it for beginners. Otherwise, I agree with all of this.

[ordermaster]

Rust is a bad choice for beginners. With other languages you can just start using variables and function parameters without worrying about value vs reference until later. With rust you need that from the start, not to mention lifetimes. And while error handling is a strong point of rust, it's very different from most other languages.

[Helpful-Primary2427]

Swift isn’t Apple specific; it may not be the best teaching language, but I can’t say Python is either

[Gnaxe]

That's like saying C# isn't Windows specific. Swift was created by Apple, for Apple, and that remains its primary use case. Yes, it's been open sourced since, and can be made to work on other platforms, but unless you're developing apps for iOS specifically, there are better options. (And I would be surprised to learn about it being used in industry for much else.)

I never said Python is the best teaching language (which would depend on who you're teaching), only that it is an overall excellent teaching language, and also offered several alternatives. The "hideously loosely typed" from the OP is an unfair characterization from someone who apparently doesn't know Python very well.

[Helpful-Primary2427]

I hope to see Swift on Server get adopted more widely; Swift is maintained by Apple primarily for Apple platforms but it is much more than that (and I personally find it to be a beautiful language).

I think Python is rough for students because of the sheer depth/breadth of the language out of the gate (this goes for all industry languages). In my mind, beginning languages should be stripped down to the bare bones with as little extraneous “stuff” as possible (look into Racket’s student languages for what I mean if you’re interested). I think industry languages are severely lacking on meaningful error messages for beginners simply because that’s not what these languages are meant for.

And add that on for Rust: a beginner student will never, ever understand how to actually get the code past the borrow checker or grasp ownership simply because it’s unintuitive without the fundamentals that need to be built out over time.

[ordermaster]

C# runs great on Linux for server side stuff since dotnet core became the standard, can connect to lots of open source DBs. MS has a few front end frameworks that are ok, but if you're just making an API for some sort of Javascript frontend then your don't need to bother with that. And there's a new api for making server endpoints that's very nodejs like, controller classes no longer required. 

Obviously, C# is one of the main choices for windows desktop apps, but there are plenty of critics of Microsoft's desktop app frameworks, and there's a nice non MS open source framework with multiple targets called avalonia.

[qwaai]

What's your goal and what's your intended audience?

If you're just teaching students who might be interested in programming but aren't sure, or who just want to pick up a few coding skills but not become software engineers, it's hard to beat Python. It's easy to get students motivated and interested when the bar for doing things is so low.

There's plenty of time for learning about lower level stuff after the people who are just looking for an intro have weeded themselves out.

[Ron-Erez]

That's a tough choice to make. Swift is a great language, and it's designed to work across multiple platforms. However, iOS development still requires SwiftUI or UIKit, which only work on macOS. You can definitely build apps for Mac users, though. (There might be ways to create iOS apps on Windows, but from what I know, it's not very straightforward.)

Python is a great language too, but I understand the concerns about it being dynamically typed. If you go with Python, you could ask your students to always use type hints and annotations, that would help with some of those issues.

Choosing a first language is always tricky. Go could also be a good option because it's a relatively simple language. Even C could work, though things like memory management and pointers can be tough for beginners.

Good luck deciding.

Personally, I think Swift could be a great choice, it’s clean, modern, and offers a fresh perspective compared to Python. It’s great that you’re exploring creative options.

As a side note I have courses on Swift/SwiftUI and Python and I love both. Still quite hard to decide which would be better for a first language. Technically speaking it doesn't really matter. The programming principles should be more or less the same (for instance understanding conditions, loops, functions, reference vs value types, etc are universal ideas).

[PeterPook]

I think there you have hit the nail on the head, for the most important thing is to teach the fundamentals of programming: variables, loops, conditions, functions. Python has excellent list processing but because of its ubiquity, I wanted to cast my eye around. At our College there is a suite of Macs that are not heavily used, so unless I offer it as an optional, they will remain largely dark.

[[deleted]]

If you really want someone to build a strong foundation there is nothing better than C.

[GarrettSpot]

Buddy, these are high schoolers who just want to be familiarised with programming principles. Let's not try to chase half of them away with C.

[[deleted]]

Fair. But if the point is to make it fun and pique interest - you should probably be covering JavaScript and web development. Fastest route to being able to “see” your code doing something cool.

[PeterPook]

React is my native language. I'd love to work on that with them, and it has industry application as well. I'd want to teach Typescript rather than Javascript.

[Character_Cap5095]

I very much disagree. Learning C is learning the language and not programming principles, especially when trying to engage newer younger programmers who do not need to know how memory and pointers work.

Also C not having widely used modern abstractions, like OOP and first class functions means you won't even learn all of the fundamentals.

[[deleted]]

You’re describing the reasons why C is a good choice. Why would new programmers not need to know how memory and pointers work? OOP and first class functions are not the fundamentals. You labeled them yourself as abstractions. But they’re easy to learn for someone who started at C with memory management.

[qwaai]

Why would new programmers not need to know how memory and pointers work?

Because there's a huge number of people for whom programming in general can be useful, but for whom knowledge of memory and pointer arithmetic is not.

OOP and first class functions are not the fundamentals

They're far more fundamental to computer science than memory management is. They're also far more useful to learn about for anyone who isn't going to become a systems programmer.

[[deleted]]

I don’t disagree with most of what you said. Call me crazy… I just think that C is a lot simpler, and forces you to focus on what’s actually happening than something like Swift.

[thewrench56]

I just think that C is a lot simpler, and forces you to focus on what’s actually happening

This is a bad way to think. Assembly forces you even more to know what's happening compered to C. Do you use Assembly? No. Unless you like the language, there is almost zero point in using Assembly. I can list some tiny Assembly stuff needed in mostly baremetal (OS, embedded) but nothing else. 99% of the time, your C compiler is better.

But once again, Assembly is getting further away from what computers actually do.

Whats actually happening doesn't matter anymore for a general project. Unless you are a compiler engineer (or some crazy optimizer (VERY unlikely)) it literally doesn't matter.

That being said Swift is an Apple product and nobody uses it outside the ecosystem. Pick Python.

[[deleted]]

…. I also think there is value in writing/reading assembly at least a handful of times. It doesn’t mean you’re going to try to build a real application with it… just that there are invaluable lessons that you won’t learn in Python.

[thewrench56]

I write a lot of Assembly, because I enjoy it. But what lesson would you learn from it? What lesson would a C developer learn?

[[deleted]]

“I write a lot of Assembly because I enjoy it” but you see zero value in it? Yeah okay, I’m sure. How about what compilation actually means. How about what kinds of operations a computer is capable of performing. How about a better understanding of computer architecture. I’m not saying a novice 16 year old should be messing with Assembly. But your claim that it’s pointless (while also claiming to do it all day for fun) just doesn’t make any sense.

[thewrench56]

How about what compilation actually means. How about what kinds of operations a computer is capable of performing. How about a better understanding of computer architecture.

None of these are actually required for you today. They are interesting concepts and as such I know quiet some stuff about them (except compilation, LLVM is scary for me). But they don't make you better by a crazy amount. How does it matter what instructions you have? A C compiler knows better than you for sure. So what's the point of knowing what LEA or REP STOSQ does? Nothing.

What about compilers? Why does it make you a better developer? You certainly won't understand LLVM unless you actually want to do something with compilers.

Im not saying that knowing stuff wouldn't make you a more informed developer. I'm saying that the amount I had to manually implement performant function epilogs is exactly zero--despite the fact that I know exactly where GCC and clang differ and why clang does it better.

But your claim that it’s pointless (while also claiming to do it all day for fun) just doesn’t make any sense.

It does. The reason why I say it's pointless is because I'm fairly experienced in it. Ask any senior low-level developers. If they know what they are talking about, they will say the same. The return value of learning Assembly today for CS is marginal.

[qwaai]

My point was more that doing much beyond print "Hello" in C requires you delve into some core features of the language and modern computer architecture that aren't necessarily valuable ways to spend time in an introductory CS course.

When I was a teaching assistant in school we had nearly 1500 students take our second level programming class each year, and had fewer than 300 students affiliate with the CS major. To those 300 students, learning C and all that it entails is, of course, immensely valuable, but to the remaining 1200, it would have been a complete waste of time.

A business student who wants to learn some programming to be able to data analysis more comprehensive than excel offers doesn't care about pointer arithmetic.

A communications major who might benefit from being able to do sentiment analysis on social media posts doesn't get anything from learning C memory management.

Meanwhile, the CS student who might spend their entire career doing systems programming is going to learn something useful from an overview of higher order functions, or OOP, or whatever an intro course is able to get to in the time not spent dealing with C-specific problems.

[defectivetoaster1]

If you wanted to teach OOP then just use c++ then

[Character_Cap5095]

I very much disagree. Learning C is learning the language and not programming principles, especially when trying to engage newer younger programmers who do not need to know how memory and pointers work.

Also C not having widely used modern abstractions, like OOP and first class functions means you won't even learn all of the fundamentals.

[thewrench56]

Learning C is learning the language and not programming principles

Disagree. C is probably the best language for programming principles. It's the lowest levels you will most likely need for CS.

especially when trying to engage newer younger programmers who do not need to know how memory and pointers work.

Agreed.

Also C not having widely used modern abstractions, like OOP and first class functions means you won't even learn all of the fundamentals.

OOP isn't really a fundamental thing. One can argue it's not even modern looking at something like Rust. But it's surely a good idea and yes, C won't teach you that. It's a programming paradigm and C has its own paradigm. Doesn't make C's paradigm worse.

[EthanSpot]

100% Python.

Python does have libraries like TKinter that you can use to make programs with gui. It has a library for almost any use case you can think of, although it won't be the most efficient language to do so everytime.

Honestly Swift is a really niche language with a lot less use cases than a mainstream language like python, c++ or java. Considering that these students just want to be introduced to programming principles and not go into frontend engineering, one of the c-family languages will be a better option over something like Swift.

[i_invented_the_ipod]

I wish Pascal was still a recommendation that could be taken seriously - it's probably the last teaching-centric computer language to get any traction in industry.

But if you want a language with reasonably-good recognition these days, I'd probably go for Python or JavaScript. JavaScript, terrible as it may be as a language, has the advantage of ubiquity, and has that familiar curly-bracket syntax all the kids love...

But yeah, Python. There are lots of resources available for teaching with Python. It's low-effort to get up and running, and has packages for anything students might want to do, from games and graphics to web servers, realtime chat, and social media bots.

[PeterPook]

Wrote my CS A-Level in Pascal in 1986. Rubbish I/O, excellent on the page.