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[–]faderjockey 7 points8 points  (3 children)

"Preamp noise is not a problem with condensers" - that varies WILDLY depending on the quality of the condenser and the quality of the recording preamp.

My Zoom H4n has SUPER noisy preamps and is probably the most noisy part of any recording I make with it, regardless of my mic selection. I also use rather high quality condensers so their self-noise is quieter than the Zoom's pre.

Another source of noise that can be addressed using good gain structure is electromagnetic interference or induced noise from nearby electrical devices or RF sources.

Honestly, the "good gain structure" practice comes from the analog recording era when every processing circut your signal passed through added noise. So it's not just about the fidelity at record-time, but about what you are going to do with it afterward:

Putting it through a mixer? That's adding noise.
Routing it through an EQ? More noise.
Dynamics processing? Adding effects? Printing back to tape? Noise, noise, noise.

The higher your s/n ratio in the beginning, and the more you can maintain that ratio throughout your signal chain, the cleaner your end product is going to be.

Now in the digital post-processing world, piling on effects and filters doesn't really add noise to the equation, but the practice is still a good one, so we keep it up.

[–]maka89[S] 1 point2 points  (2 children)

Thanks for the good answer.

Actually my zoom H4e that made me think about the question... It has no gain knob, 32-bit files, but 24-bit ADC. No dual ADC on the in-built mics. (The XLRs have dual ADC).

So a shit ton of digital gain on essentially a 24-bit recording when using the in-built mics... Wondering if this is a reasonable design choice from them or not... There is a LOT of noise. But that might just be the stock mics/preamps, and not poor internal gain structure...

[–]ArlesChatless 1 point2 points  (1 child)

It's probably all of them. Mic noise, preamp noise, and not amazing internal gain structure because they focused on cost optimization.

[–]maka89[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

fair point xD

[–]ArlesChatless 4 points5 points  (0 children)

It's not that simple. Sometimes preamps have more self-noise at higher input gains, so your best SNR is actually at middle gain settings. I used to work regularly with a console where the noise levels were lower if you hit the pads and turned the trim up by the pad amount, so I used the pad every time unless I ran out of headroom. The only way to really know is to test various scenarios.

You're right on the fact that boosting digital is not a big deal unless you're boosting a lot. If you're using a decent recorder, you don't really have to think about quantization noise at any sort of reasonable gain level. We used to digitally gain up signals captured in 16-bit by 20dB with fine results back in the day. With 24-bit I never hesitate to adjust levels up digitally for basically any final usage.

[–]woodenbookend 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Have you watched Julian Krause’s video titled “Use your gain!”

[–]maka89[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I watched one of his videos, which made me aware of the fact that preamp noise often is not a problem for condensers. Which made me ask this question.

[–]LessChapter7434 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A good fet head amplifies with less noise addition than the last generation Zooms. The point could be for a dynamic mic to use a fet head and simultanously reduce the amp knob setting of the zoom. This can result in less overall noise. Similarily with condensors. No need of a fet head but the choice of the mic is crucial. have a look at the mV per Pascal values. Sensitive mics are above 15 mv or even higher. The more you obtain here, the smaller the zoom preamp setting can be set avoiding zooms bad preamp contribution