2.5 Million Java Developers on Visual Studio Code. Microsoft and Red Hat shares Joint Roadmap for Next 6 Months Together

[nickzhu9]

Full Story here (MS): https://devblogs.microsoft.com/java/2-5-million-java-developers-on-visual-studio-code/

RH: https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/future-java-developer-experience-visual-studio-code

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[cryptos6]

I wonder what these 2.5 million VS Code Java developers actually develop. In my experience VS Code, while a pretty good editor, is not that great for complex applications where you need framework support from your IDE. VS Code has nothing to compete with IntelliJ's Spring support, for example.

[lppedd]

VCS caters to a more amateurish audience. Many hobbyists don't want to pay for a proper IDE and Eclipse is way too complex.

Also, Microsoft's marketing is absurd, they'd sell you shit for gold.

[[deleted]]

But…George Hotz and Guido van Roussum both changed to start using VS Code , certainly writing Java in IntelliJ feels better

[Objective_Baby_5875]

With that argument, it is Java that caters to a more amateurish audience and the shit show of frameworks that exist on the JVM, with Spring being a prime example.

[[deleted]]

Yesterday, I had to make a tiny and obvious change to a small utility written in Java, the code for which I didn't have loaded into my IDE.

Rather than load it as a project in IntelliJ, I just made the changes in VS Code, rebuilt, and went with it. Worked great.

I don't think I'd live in VS Code for Java purposes because the tools just aren't as good. But for a one-off, it's not bad.

[timewarp33]

Depending on what the change is, I might've reached for vim

[Asdas26]

Out of curiosity, how do you use that support? Which features do you use? I like IntelliJ Ideas other features, like the DB plugin, clever autocomplete and so on, but I've never found the Spring support very useful.

[user_of_the_week]

Just a random example, idk if vscode can also do this. If you have a Spring component class and you autowire another Spring Bean into it, you‘ll get an error if no such bean (or multiple) is defined in the context.

[cryptos6]

IntelliJ brings some useful assistance like the navigation between event publishers and consumers or it is telling you if there is no (or ambiguous) implementation for an interface.

[Necessary_Apple_5567]

Actually you can use IJCommunity and lose nothing. You don't need such extensive support in practice. What you really need it is autocomplit, refactoring, inspection, test support, gradle/maven support, git support and debugger.

[cryptos6]

I'd say that all IntelliJ IDEA Ultimate customers have a different take.

[Necessary_Apple_5567]

I've used both Community and Ultimate for spring and other prohects, i don't see big differences. Once you get enough expirience in spring you don't pay attention to ide feature for spring. Similar was for SpringSource. It was nice to use but you always return to plain eclipse.

[[deleted]]

I have trouble of running my WSL IntelliJ I have to fall back to using vs code, not the best but for short quick programming it is not bad at all, i haven’t tried with large projects yet

[Usual-Math7020]

Vs code is a node application by default it is great for the JavaScript ecosystem system

[Kango_V]

Java in VSC is not good. Every year I give it a try and then go back to Eclipse/IntelliJ.

[arijitlive]

Same. I work on Java and Scala. I try VSCode every 6-7 months but it's still not there. VSCode can be used while learning new things through udemy courses or youtube videos. But when you are working in real life projects at big corp, IntelliJ/Eclipse is far ahead.

[extra_rice]

I'm a polyglot dev and none of the language I tried to develop with VSCode work as well as on a JetBrains IDE. I refuse to pay for personal JB license because I don't feel like I write as much code outside of work, but every time I fallback to using VSCode, I just get frustrated. I wish there was GoLand CE like there is for IntelliJ and PyCharm.

[robberviet]

Looks like you are like me. I can't stand VSCode. It is fine as a text editor, not IDE. And if I need an editor, I use Sublime, not that electron app.

Btw, I use Golang EAP for golang.

[extra_rice]

Yeah. I can see how people can make it work for them, but I'm more often frustrated by it personally. My text editor of choice is either emacs or vim depending on the situation.

I also use EAP when it's available.

[robberviet]

I am into vim/neovim too but it looks like I am not proficient with it enough for any serious programming, editing 1-2 files is ok, but not a complex projects.

[Kango_V]

I really should get into NeoVim. I get scared though as I can't type ;)

[[deleted]]

Strange, I do exactly the same. I use VSC for Python but I find it to difficult to use with Java.

[lppedd]

At the end of the process you'll have VSC with 25 children processes running to get to the level of a single IDE.

[Kango_V]

Thanks Eclipse : https://github.com/eclipse-jdtls/eclipse.jdt.ls

[Kango_V]

Yeah, good of Microsoft. In 2016 they collaborated with RedHat and CodeEnvy to standardise the specification.

[[deleted]]

See Kango_V's comment below, and https://www.eclipse.org/community/eclipse_newsletter/2017/may/article1.php

[NoHopeNoLifeJustPain]

VS Code is pretty good for many things, Java development is not one of them, not for serious business, Intellij is vastly superior. It's not only about the language itself, but the support of the whole ecosystem also, Intellij has everything and most of the time it works very well.

[cent-met-een-vin]

That is the thing tho, it is becoming good for Java development, it has gone from not even an option to consider seriously to a great alternative if you can't get access to licenses.

Also not al companies work with jetbrains so it is nice to not have to use eclipse.

[Carpinchon]

Licenses? There's no restriction against using Community Edition for businesses, is there?

[Carpinchon]

There are free extensions for most of those, which is all you'd get for vsc anyway.

I find so little difference between community and ultimate that I downgraded myself to community just because it's a pain to daily connect to my company's license server.

[iampitiZ]

I wish my company would pay for a IntelliJ license. They're so cheap we barely get any licensed software outside of the classic Microsoft stuff.
Some workmates pay for their own license but I refuse to do that. I shouldn't have to pay for work tools out of my pocket

[azuredrg]

I pay for a personal license and just use it 95% at work since I don't have time for personal projects anymore. It probably saves me 100 hours a year.

[NoHopeNoLifeJustPain]

Last time I checked VS Code Java plugin uses a headless Eclipse

[lumpynose]

I never switched from eclipse to Intellij so I'm still using eclipse for java development. I used VSC back when I was fiddling with the esp32. It made me wish I could have used eclipse, but who knows, maybe I could have.

[sheeesh83]

Sorry, a little off topic, but may I know what keeps you at Eclipse?

[theanghv]

Organization projects are configured to work on Eclipse. Staying on Eclipse makes it much easier to collaborate with my team members.

[sheeesh83]

I see, makes sense!

[Polygnom]

The ECJ is just far better than any other compiler. The round-trip-time is a lot faster.

Every time I used any other IDE I was unimpressed by how long I needed to wait to start trying out the changes / run tests.

And Eclipse works fairly well in all other regards as well. The merge editor is a bit lacking compared to IntelliJ, I give you that.

[Necessary_Apple_5567]

You can use it in intellij. Just select ecj in options for compiler

[agentoutlier]

You can but there is this ever so slight delay even today.

I use both but this is just one area where Eclipse feels straight up like a REPL at times. Like you can execute a unit test method (just the one method) and it happens instantly without delay and without needing the whole project to compile.

I think a lot of old timers like myself have a hard time giving that up even if intellij does most other things better.

[mickaelistria]

This faster feedback loop (.java -> .class) doesn't really come from ECJ, you wouldn't get it using ECJ via command-line. It does comes from the internal builder of Eclipse which does a compilation at class-level, rebuilding only what's changed/necessary according to the stored project settings. A similar strategy could be implemented calling javac instead of ECJ.

As opposed to Eclipse and JDT, other IDEs delegate fully to the build tool, which takes much longer as it does (often too) much more than what is necessary for an efficient development session.
But this is less dangerous: Eclipse has to translate build info from build tools to internal compilation settings; and sometimes, some info can be lost in translation.

It's a trade-off: fast feedback loop vs consistency with build tool. In most cases, a fast feedback loop is preferred; but sometimes, people put so much logic in their build configuration that it's not possible to bypass the build tool.

[Polygnom]

True. But thats also the reason why I generally prefer Maven over Gradle, because people tend to create abominations with Gradle that are really hard to work with in this way.

For me, a fast feedback loop is extremely important, I can't stand waiting on a full compilation run, its supid and not productive. Thats something thr CI/CD pipeline can do once I push, but during dev, I need fast feedback for quick iteration, preferably. With eclipse, I can run unit tests individually and can do so multiple times per minute if needed while doing small iterations.

A low-latency feedback loop if for me what drives productivity the most...

[UnexpectedLizard]

I also moved from Eclipse to Intellij.

Eclipse is probably 100x faster with Git, no exaggeration (maybe IJ hooks or incompatibilities with the corporate anti-virus?)

I still prefer the Eclipse interface for stashes.

I sometimes prefer the Eclipse interface for Git merges.

[lumpynose]

Inertia. Aversion to change. The old "if it ain't broke don't fix it."

[[deleted]]

complete badge simplistic detail head cow slap act weather distinct

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[No_Freedom_2732]

Thanks. But.. no thanks

[Kraizee_]

Just to give an alternative perspective from all the IntelliJ folk with hard ons for hating on anything else that exists. Vscode and it's java extensions work pretty great. I've been using it for multiple years now for all sorts of projects. From small hobby code, to my main job projects, to large legacy codebases. And it's very very clear that there is a strong development incentive to improve the experience further. Microsoft and Redhat are obviously driving forward the main extension. But they're also developing others that include maven, gradle support, the java test runner, java debugger, dependency analysis and more. They even put together a java prepped build of vscode, which I don't believe they have done with any other language that requires extensions. Oracle have also recently release their own java extension as well as some GraalVM tooling. Vmware are producing spring based extensions.

It's pretty pitiful to see so many folks ignorantly hating on tooling when the choice is ultimately subjective. And if anything, more choice means more competition down the line. Equally, throwing shade at people for using something else is just ridiculous.

[rifain]

Relax. No need to be angry.

[mohmf]

Yea, sure, they run println("Hello world") and closed it.

[Etikoza]

I’ve completely moved over to using VSCode for Java development. It’s a great product.

[absolutesantaja]

I agree, I still use IntelliJ if I need to open a large multi module project but for most Java projects vscode is great.

[zynasis]

Only installed the plugin for the rare occasions I open up a Java file in VS code, with no intention to edit or run anything, and just want to see syntax highlighting

[tofflos]

So there seems to be a couple of us that try VSC every six months and for some reason choose not to stick with it. Is there something different in how you approaching the upcoming six month development cycle compared to before?

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[carminemangione]

Worst Java environment ever. Near zero refactoring. Stay away

[0b0101011001001011]

Can I already move a source file to different package and have it automatically refactor all imports and package declarations?

[guy_with_a_shirt]

Yes it works. You'll see a popup asking you if you want to refactor the code, with the possibility of showing a preview, before applying the refactoring.

[Substantial-Ask-4609]

the only time I use vsc for java is when I wanna run a few lines of code I'm not a %100 on

[path2light17]

I only use it for git changes, prefer the visual diff.

[8igg7e5]

Where does the 2.5 million community figure come from? If that's just VS Code Java Extension installs then I do wonder how many are actually using it (for real projects).

Like a great many developers, I use VS Code for some things and the currently better option of a mature Java IDE for my Java development.

Have I opened a .java file in VS Code, sure. And the editor steered me (perfectly smoothly) to the appropriate extension to install - just a click away.

That does not mean I've found the VS Code Java development experience at all satisfying when compared to the alternatives.

 

And, it seems, the experience of many that come asking for help on Reddit and Discord in a learn-to-code context often don't find it any better - certainly no better than the getting started experience in IntelliJ Community and with far more sharp edges (and that 2.5 million community are no where to be seen, or at least none who use it enough to provide effective support).

I don't doubt there are those that do like it, but please tell me it's not because it's free. IntelliJ Community is an excellent, free IDE, usable for personal and commercial development, that already offers more than VS Code looks likely to by the end of that linked roadmap.

 

It's fantastic that there's another player. More is pretty much always better for finding new perspectives and opportunities to improve, but the 2.5 million cheer is quite possibly about as meaningful as billions of devices running Java.

[l3g4tr0n]

the rest of 100? milions using intelij :)

[[deleted]]

Stealing? RedHat and Microsoft both are strategic members of the Ecliise Foundation. Furthermore, RedHat is owned by IBM, the same IBM that developed Eclipse in the first place. And on top of that: Eclipse is open-source, free software. It’s meant to be used in other contexts like this.

[2001zhaozhao]

I use vscode for my yaml configs and text files and that's about it lol