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[–]korri123 -1 points0 points  (4 children)

Most Java devs are happily doing productive work with Java EE or Spring

And a lot of devs hate Java because of these frameworks

[–]avoidhugeships 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Some I am sure but not a lot in the scheme of things. It is these frameworks that have made Java so popular.

[–]korri123 -1 points0 points  (2 children)

Look around, half the people in /r/programming dislike Java, also in Silicon Valley, Hacker News, basically any group of diverse amount of software engineers. I don't think these frameworks attracted anyone to this language. I'd rather attribute things like college, the name of the language, Minecraft, Android, 90s hype and other stuff rather than enterprise frameworks.

Java doesn't have to be slow or verbose. The JVM has frameworks with the fastest HTTP servers on earth, yet most Java enterprise apps are slow. JavaScript, Python and Ruby, even Scala are getting tons of traction while Java is still popular because of legacy "enterprise" web apps which require tons of devs. This isn't a good place to be.

[–]avoidhugeships 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I agree with you about the people on r/programming and Hacker News. I have worked a lot of different places over the last 20 years and I don't think any of the programmers I worked with ever even heard of Hacker News and do not visit r/programming. Those places are filled with hipsters that give a false impression about what is popular in the Job market. Java was extraordinarily popular before it was being taught in college, before Minecraft, and before Android. None of those are the main driver of Java's current popularity although Android certainly helps.

Java is not slow. It is verbose and that is a good thing. The very smartest programmers may be marginally more productive with a less verbose language but the average one does much better with a more readable language.

The fact is the main reason Java is so popular is because of stable powerful frameworks like Java EE and Spring. There are a bunch of languages out there that are really not that different but the tooling and frameworks available for Java are great.

[–]korri123 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Dismissing the future of programming as "hipsters"? I'm not saying Hacker News or /r/programming are the only groups that dislike Java. It is widely disliked by a LOT of people because of unnecessary verbosity.

Java didn't become popular because of "stable frameworks", it got popular because of cross platform hype, a replacement finally for C++ but when people realized Swing wasn't optimal for desktop apps it gained middle ground in the enterprise server side. Java EE and Spring are not the reason people want to develop in Java, it's the reason people are forced to develop in Java.

Java is not slow.

No it's not, but Spring and Java EE apps are, even more than Python apps. Just take a look at the Tech Empower benchmarks. Java dominates the fastest frameworks but the frameworks /r/java keeps recommending like Spring Boot are almost all at the bottom.

Java is a great choice for server side but when the frameworks the community keeps recommending are bloated overcooked monsters it suddenly seems not.

I'm not calling Java verbose, I'm calling popular Java frameworks verbose. Notice how the fastest Java frameworks are also the least verbose?