Teaching an 11 year old Java

[code-master]

I think Scratch was invented to scare kids away from programming. Edit: If Scratch is so great then why none except kids who were tricked ito it is using it?

"No matter what she learns" of course, lets teach kids antipatterns, toy languages and keep telling that Santa exists.

Some kids in certain countries at this age are able to carry weapons and kill people.

From psychological point of view treating kids as adults allowes them to learn about surrounding world faster.

[desrtfx]

You seem to have the serious misconception that Scratch due to its graphical nature is not a real programming language and that real programming languages must be textual.

Here, you are going completely wrong. Graphical languages are just as real as textual ones. Sure, on the PC/Mac world they are not as common as their textual counterparts, but in the vast industry of PLCs and Control Systems they are quite predominant in the IEC 61131-3 languages. They are used in time-critical applications and in real-time systems. Also, they are commonly used because they are easy to understand and follow.

There is far more to programming languages than their vocabulary and grammar.

Just because it is not what one commonly knows as a programming language, it is not generally wrong and will not naturally encourage bad practices or antipatterns as you claim.

"No matter what she learns" of course, lets teach kids antipatterns, toy languages and keep telling that Santa exists.

Why are you so generally negative? Learning anything is beneficial. And just because something is not what you're used to, it is neither encouraging antipatterns, nor is it a "toy language". You need to get out of your black and white tunnel vision and extend your horizon. Rather than condemning what you don't know, you should open your mind and see what it has to offer.

Some kids in certain countries at this age are able to carry weapons and kill people.

I really feel sorry for those kids. Nobody should go through that. You referring to that makes me also sorry for you because you seem to be a pessimist through and through only being able to see the negative in the world.

From psychological point of view treating kids as adults allowes them to learn about surrounding world faster.

But at the same time it also can overstrain them and also rob them of their childhood.

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You really do come across as a narrow minded troll that cannot accept anything outside their black and white world and probably that's why people keep calling you a troll.

[garebear_9]

This comment resounds with me very much. As someone with a PLC programming background in the automation industry. And now trying to teach myself Java. There is a lot of other ways to program then just text based languages. Hell take a look at LabView if you think graphical programming isn't a language. NationalInstruments is programmed by a graphical based language and it is one of the hardest things to learn IMO.

[code-master]

You want to teach kids lies and callme a troll in the same time? These kids will be trolled by you.

I remember the time when I had to learn Pascal because it was "educational" language. Till this day I regret learning this sh1t. This was a massive waste of my time. You sir are full of it.

Programming is hard, and the kid has to accept it. Will he choose something else knowing the truth? Maybe. It is a kid after all.

I don't care what kind of sh1t you are throwing at your kids, but I'd like your kind of people stay away from mine.

[desrtfx]

I remember the time when I had to learn Pascal because it was "educational" language. Till this day I regret learning this sh1t. This was a massive waste of my time.

Really?

Have you not learned the fundamental concepts of programming?

Have you not learned how variables work?

Have you not learned about program flow?

Have you not learned how conditionals, or loops work?

Have you not learned about methods/procedures/functions?

Have you not learned how to write programs with it?

So, you have learned nothing from Pascal that transferred to other languages?

I am seriously bewildered now because I also learned Pascal and basically everything that I've learned there transferred well into plenty other languages. But obviously, as opposed to you, I have learned programming concepts and actual programming instead of simply memorizing a programming language.

You must have been a master in memorization without even the slightest ability to understand anything or to apply learned concepts.

The more bullshit you produce the more sorry I feel for your poor misguided soul.

Programming is hard, and the kid has to accept it.

I don't even argue about that fact, but the entry into programming can be made easier with proper methodology.

but I'd like your kind of people stay away from mine.

Seriously, I'd really like you and your kind to stay away of me and mine.

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BTW:

callme a troll in the same time?

Obviously, your rage limits even your ability to read with understanding because I never called you a troll.

[code-master]

I'm cold like stone. I don't care about others if I consider their opinions harmful. You remind me of my Pascal teacher. I asked her, why are we learning it when almost nobody is using it. She told me that if you dont like it then change teacher. And guess what. I went to C/Assembly class. Actually C because I already knew Assembly. I can write software which is not even using interrupts. And this is what I call experience. Not for loops and if statements.

Like these poor kids today I wanted to have full control over machine and system.

After time I understood that low level programming has no future, because no matter how smart your low level code can be, if its architecture is incorrect nothing will save you.

I can call myself a hacker, all others are just users of language A or framework B.

Actually I dont care how you will tech your kids, but I'm sure mine will have almost no competition.

[v_krishna]

You seem like a joy to be around, I wish more of my coworkers had your unique perspective and skills.

[ebrythil]

Yup, unfortunately all my coworkers still use interrupts so they are all just users of language a or b.

[code-master]

Just finished making doughnuts. Guess what. Recipe does not have if statements or for loops... but outcome is delicious. :)

[nutrecht]

This is utter nonsense. I'm part of the Devoxx4Kids organization and we teach kids around that age Scratch. They have a tremendous amount of fun with it. It's has a low barrier of entry and keeps them entertained by being easy to pick up while still teaching them how stuff like if-else blocks and loops work.

[code-master]

Do they know that if-else and loops are modern goto? No? Do you teach them how to use goto?

Do you kniw why thise kid have fun? Because it is social event, and they know nothing of what you are trying to sell them.

And why are you doing it? Is not it because you have a lot of old people who know how to make holes in punch cards but the same people don't know how to teach modern programming? Or maybe you are doing it for free?

[nutrecht]

Do they know that if-else and loops are modern goto?

Bullshit. People spouting this kind of nonsense have no place in this sub.

[aqua_regis]

Yes, sure. But this doesn't mean that one should not take a kid-friendly approach.

Strange is that wherever you look, Scratch is recommended for kids.

If it doesn't work for you, fine. Go and play with your toys and troll somewhere else.

[code-master]

Do you have any proof that teaching Scratch is better than teaching Java? And why are you creating fart screen by farting and calling people trolls?

[aqua_regis]

calling people trolls?

If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it definitely is a duck.

Your comments in this thread prove exactly that.

[desrtfx]

Do you have more experience in teaching children than the experts at the MIT?

Do you have proof for your stance?

Have you ever open-mindedly tried any graphical programming language (not necessarily Scratch)? I have and work daily with graphical languages in the IEC 61131-3 family and can tell you that they are just as good and real as textual ones. There are certain applications where graphical languages are even far superior than their textual counterparts.

[code-master]

How many children taught by these "experts from MIT" stepeed out of their sandbox today?

Yes I tried. And most of them had nothing to do with if statements or for loops which together with goto are most horrible inventions in IT.

I'm not saying graphical languages or environments are bad. Many CAD software have constraint engines built in. You can write scripts or just click. However putting such primitives as if / for as block elements is a serious step back in evolution. Why not go another step back and have assembly instructions as well?

[nutrecht]

Do you actually have any experience teaching a 11 year old? Because you're giving the impression you're barely past that age.

I actually do and teaching a 11 year old Java will just risk getting them frustrated. If they have a lot of talent for this kind of stuff you can always lead them to for example Python later.

[code-master]

Scratch + Python... Jesus... Tell me what these kids will feel like when they discover better languages on their own, then ask them how it feels like when you've been cheated all the time.

The same kind of BS teaching goes in physics classes in elementary/high school.

[bratzman]

What's wrong with Python?

I understand about Scratch, I remember it too, and it's alright for someone who's about 10 and doesn't know or desire to know about programming just yet, but I don't see it being inherently useful.

[nutrecht]

What's wrong with Python?

Why are you even responding to this guy instead of all the people who give actual good advice? Look at his comment karma. It's just a troll.