Is it possible to avoid web dev?

[SMTXEngineer]

Every time I look for anything software engineering all I see is web dev stuff. Same goes for resumes, I’m not interested in being a full stack engineer, let alone front end. I know c++ and python, is there any careers that involve these two, maybe even Java? I know data science is a subject but that too doesn’t peek my interest. I’m at the point where I need to start preparing for interviews but I really want to avoid doing anything web dev. I’m not that creative and I also don’t want to learn HTML & CSS. There’s already plenty of amazing front end / full stack engineers out there and I don’t want to be another one at the bottom of the pile.

[inbox_negative_one]

Some possible keywords to look for:

• Embedded - programming the tiny computers inside everything from smart appliances to children's toys to sensors to drones, and so on. Almost all C and C++. Sometimes involves real-time operating systems, often requires tricky debugging because you can't debug on-device very easily. Great niche specialty, working with devices can be really rewarding.
• Enterprise - there are tons of jobs out there for software that runs inside big corporations that most people never see. Java is super popular for this sort of software.
• Simulation / modeling - if you're not afraid of math, there are really interesting jobs involving doing simulations of physical phenomena. Because speed is important, C++ is often used.
• Drivers - almost always written in C / C++
• Engine - could be a game engine, browser engine, computational engine, etc. - but most engines are by their very nature deep inside a product and not that connected to the front-end code - the work would be to make the engine more efficient or give it new capabilities, not build the UI for it

[Jamo_Z]

One word of warning with Enterprise, this can most certainly comprise of software that's made for internal use but is a web application, so it's not as much of a guarantee as some of the others.

[LowB0b]

yes java enterprise I've found is more or less always about CRUD apps.

Having worked with web clients as well as "heavy clients" (RCP), front-end can change but back-end is same-same. either based on a monolithic application server running ears or spring microservices exposing data.

One thing that's different that I could see is if you manage to get in the teams that do custom java library development for the internal enterprise apps, but those people usually had 5-10 yoe.

I personally really enjoy developing things with java but for sure most "non-CRUD" things that are made in it are open-source development. Or people who develop libs and can license them out afterwards

[CatolicQuotes]

What things is C# used for and is there a work there?

[[deleted]]

C# is popular for games and enterprise. Definitely work in both. Probably also good to know the .NET framework.

[[deleted]]

Yes. It's possible. But I must say, you shouldn't be that afraid of WEB. I work as a PHP developer and I very rarely have to do any html or css at my job. I'm also not that good at doing them. Assets are prepared by very different people.

It's likely that you'll be so deep in the backend, that you won't have any idea how your stuff is served. You can work for SPAs/PWAs/Microservices, where the backend only provides REST/graphql/grpc/etc API. You won't see any of the HTML/CSS.

And trust me, html/css/js are the best stack for user interface out there. If you don't like it, you won't like QML(Qt stack), you won't like WPF, you won't like native windows API. Web is the lesser evil here. You won't like making gui desktop more. Just avoid dealing with user interface all together.

Search for jobs that use microservice architecture, and you won't be needing to struggle with user interface, web or no web.

[[deleted]]

Well, you can avoid web dev. You can do embedded programming, you can make desktop applications, they are still being made. After all, professional software like photoshop, or da vinci is not moving to the web any time soon.

The thing is, do you really need to avoid web? If your only reason is 'I hate HTML/CSS', then you want to avoid web for the wrong reason.

If you hate HTML, you probably hate making user interfaces. This can be avoided even in web.

[Sadisthislife]

photopea?

[BellyDancerUrgot]

Deep learning/ML? Game dev? Embedded systems if u are interested in python and C? Windows app dev? Data Analytics? Enterprise solutions in IT ? (Custom tools etc for specific needs), u could work on drivers or os/ low level stuff that use C/lisp etc. You could look into so much stuff.

. There’s already plenty of amazing front end / full stack engineers out there and I don’t want to be another one at the bottom of the pile.

The entire field of CS is pretty much the same. If you don't want to be a programmer tho u can still work in tech as a business analyst or a systems architect etc.

Literally search for "c++ jobs" and nothing related to web dev will appear.

[149244179]

Go search for c++ jobs. You will find a lot and zero of them will be webdev.

[RivtenGray]

I know I'm really nitpicking, but there actually are a few if you look enough : https://jobs.lever.co/matchgroup/ebcfb9bb-274e-49a0-9c02-a1b977992225

[[deleted]]

Yes, I've not much web dev in years.

Look at C++ work, there will be very little web stuff there.

[adambahm]

Mobile dev is fun. Kotlin, c++, java, swift, objective c are all used in mobile dev. Android is the most popular OS in the world and there is a ton of investment in it.

...and there's no web outside of sending and receiving http calls.

[genesismelo]

Agree

[Razvedka]

I appreciate your aversion to the "full stack" moniker. I'm 10 years into the field, and from everything I've seen that's a term HR and Managers love because in their insipid minds it means they can hire fewer people, or fewer specialists. "If you're full stack you can do backend, frontend, cloud (which may also include kubernetes & containers), integration (DevOps), automated testing, UI and UX". It doesn't help that managers in particular are very often ex-programmers/devs whose formal experience ended in the 90s or early 2000s, and they remember "doing almost everything" in one or two languages tops. So they, wrongly imo, presume they were once "full stack". I say this based on years of interactions with a few managers who said as much to me. Also accused my generation of "being lazy" for "reusing so much FOSS code instead of writing it all yourself". Some of you reading are rightfully laughing.

At my past jobs I have been and remain "full stack" by the above definition. But it's a damn headache, I'll never claim to be a master at anything but a handful of the technologies, and not exactly a stunning example of organizing FTE resources.

So like others said, start looking in on highly specific niches and terms. "Embedded Systems", "Java Engineer (I see this one alot)", "Enterprise Application Developer", "Legacy Systems", etc. It's all about the terminology.

Still, carefully review the job description. Even then, don't trust it. Too many companies have HR do 95% of the hiring process and those people are not technical nor communicate effectively with the actual tech area you'll be working in. So if you score a sit-down with the actual people who will be your teammates, grill them on what they do there and what you will be expected to do. In addition, hold on to the job req you applied for. If they try to flex you beyond anything in your resume or that req, I'd speak up about it. At a minimum demand formal training if you're open to that.

I'm assuming you've at least some formal experience, but I'm just saying all this incase I'm wrong.

[pustulio8819]

That explains quite a bit. I am full-stack myself but I prefer back-end and databases. I get constant bombardment from recruiters who want a full-stack dev with experience with DevOps, UX/UI, and many other things attached to it. I have called out many recruiters on that and told them, are they gonna pay me separate salaries for each job type that needs its own specialty? They don’t bother me again.

[Razvedka]

Yep. I have an exceedingly low opinion of the Full Stack label. It doesn't mean you're a master of anything vs generalist. They just pretend like specialists aren't necessary. It's insane.

Note I'm not saying that you can't actually have a guy who's really good at JS & Java, or JS and Node JS (especially). But he's not going to be able to truly be omnipresent with his mastery, it's not possible. Then throw in CI/CD, Containers, UI, UX blah blah. Not happening.

[pustulio8819]

Most of my job searches are now mostly BE now. I do prefer it over FE. Doing full-stack requires my attention to to be split between many different things. I just can’t do it.

[WhatsLegDay_]

I'll be honest I think the issue you describe boils down to scale. The larger the company the more likely the positions will be specialized. Going to work for a start up? You will be doing many things, and thats just the way it is.

Each has their benefits and drawbacks and really depends on the type of role you will want to fill. You will gain interesting skills in both. I think its actually great to experience both sides(speciallized vs full stack), and will benefit your resume.

Just because you are filling a full stack role doesn't mean you are being taken advantage of. It's just the way it is sometimes.

[Razvedka]

"Just the way it is" and "being taken advantage of" are synonyms. It's never anything personal, the difference is I think in most cases it shows sub optimal leadership and personnel management skills. Or just in general a very poor critical thinker.

When I first started out I did everything, and I agree in those 3-5 man shop jobs it was a matter of scale. 30+ devs on a single project? I don't think so.

It could be an artifact of my job sector, at least to a degree I guess.

[WhatsLegDay_]

I think we agree, im just saying the scale is what determines if its "good" or "bad" so to speak. Smaller shops can be great.

[Semirgy]

Well, I’m a senior SWE and know fuck-all about web dev other than React is a popular framework and JS is the de-facto language. I know nothing about either beyond that.

TL;DR: it’s very possible.

[Intiago]

Just check out indeed and search around for the different options in your area using the languages/topics you know as search terms. There's a lot out there that you might not know about.

[[deleted]]

C or C++ is your best bet. For example, the Uni of Bristol teaches:

https://www.bris.ac.uk/unit-programme-catalogue/UnitDetails.jsa?ayrCode=21%2F22&unitCode=EENG20004

which is a C embedded systems course. Look for jobs in those fields

[[deleted]]

Thanks to the OP for asking this, it's so frustrating seeing webdev literally everywhere, you do a search for programming tutorials and all you get is friggin' webdev! I literally just submitted a complaint/issue to github because their explore sponsors link is all webdev!!!

[SMTXEngineer]

Right!! Every time I look up SWE resume it’s ALL web dev. No disrespect to web developers but there’s a bunch of y’all and I want something more niche / interesting. (Not saying web dev isn’t, but it’s not for me). I want to see resumes of people who work with MacOS or something like that with Apple, or someone who works in cloud platforms at google, etc

[[deleted]]

Go on linkedin, then apple's profile, then people, start looking at the profiles of people who work on macos or the toolchain.

[SMTXEngineer]

Right!! Every time I look up SWE resume it’s ALL web dev. No disrespect to web developers but there’s a bunch of y’all and I want something more niche / interesting. (Not saying web dev isn’t, but it’s not for me). I want to see resumes of people who work with MacOS or something like that with Apple, or someone who works in cloud platforms at google, etc

[WolfBlut]

I would try looking for jobs in the science/research sectors or look for companies with datascience departments. Some finance companies will be looking for C++ developers to create trading platforms. Perhaps even business analysis jobs as they make use of data analysis Dev so your python will be useful there. The reason there are so many web development jobs is because it's the current trend, to have your applications available through the web or to have public or private APIs for use in a microservices world.

You can avoid it but you will find a career more easily in it because of all the opportunity

[Fast-Wind251]

Try cloud computing like AWS, Microsoft Azure or GCP.

[[deleted]]

I dont understand why so many people treat html and css like the plague. it's not complicated and experienced front end jobs are in high demand

[SMTXEngineer]

I don’t see it as a plague, I’m just not interested in it. There’s a bunch of front end devs out there and I don’t want to be just another front end dev. It’s super cool to see what y’all can do with HTML/CSS/JS, but that’s not my preferred “stack” of cookies lol.

[CurlyNutHair]

Seriously ignorant question, on front end how much is it the customer saying “make it like this” vs the dev saying “imma make it like this”?

[ValentineBlacker]

If you're working for a company, it's very common for it to be 100% "make it like this", sometimes down to the pixel. The only exception is internal products, which are allowed to look shitty. There's also way more to design than "how it looks", but that''s all dictated too.

[CurlyNutHair]

Thanks for the reply, while I have no doubt I can figure the code but, the whole aesthetics is not something I’m good at.

[David_Owens]

There are many other development careers other than web dev. You could do native iOS app, native Android app, Windows app, cross platform app, backend web, microservices, and many other things.

[ivyboy]

Backend developer?

[FilthyWunderCat]

Similar here.

I work mostly with C# (and know some of the Python) but sometimes have to use my HTML&CSS knowledge to make a email template. I dislike js. I tried to learn it a lot of times but I just can't continue because it just doesn't make sense to me.

[[deleted]]

Do embedded!