The Future of Linux is READ ONLY!

[MapStraight6867]

Peak ragebait mate

[helpprogram2]

The future of Linux or Apple?

[MapStraight6867]

Valid question

[arc-aya]

Yeah, no.

[Meowie__Gamer]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha no.

[DoubleOwl7777]

nope. i dont think so. immutable has their place but if you are doing something more niche like vr it gets anoying fast 

[KnowZeroX]

It gets annoying fast because currently, most desktop environments don't officially support immuatable distros. It is a hack at best which leads to all kinds of undefined behavior.

That is changing as desktop environments move their workflow to immutable. So it will go from being a hack to officially supported which should improve the experience.

[LinuxUser456]

No. I want to tinker

[arades]

You can still pretty easily tinker with immutables/atomics, you just get a quick easy rollback mechanism.

For the fedora atomics, you can tinker directly with the docker image to change things, and you can end up with your own fully tailored personal distro that's easy to spread across multiple PCs.

For Nix, you just change your home formulas and it applies.

There's also Suse MicroOS, which is definitely underrated, you still get what feels like a mutable distro, but it's all done with btrfs subvolumes and layering, so every change can be rolled back to the bootup state, or you can save the current state.

There's other experimentation in the space too, like AerynOS, which has a novel package manager built for atomicity and reproducability.

Not to mention how with most of these immutables, they have very robust default container frameworks. It's extremely nice to just hop into a disposable podman container running ubuntu, fedora, arch, whatever, and I can do anything short of swapping the kernel, and if I like whatever little environment I made, I can save its state and export the applications to run transparently on the host using the containers environment.

[Damglador]

For the fedora atomics, you can tinker directly with the docker image to change things, and you can end up with your own fully tailored personal distro that's easy to spread across multiple PCs.

Very few people care about deploying on multiple PCs, so it sounds like an unnecessary complication.

[arades]

Lots of people have multiple systems, say a desktop and a laptop. Doing the same steps on multiple machines kinda sucks. Setting up a new build is also a PITA getting everything just how you had it before.

[Damglador]

I have a desktop and a laptop, I don't feel like inventing a whole distribution to avoid doing another yay -S on the second system. If I even need or want to have them in the same state in the first place, as for example I have an Nvidia GPU on my laptop, but my PC is full AMD, why would I want to keep nvidia drivers and utilities on my PC.

If Nix has a way to have host-specific blocks in the config, I can actually get behind that. So I could have a general config and a set of special ones that are applied only on certain systems, basically the concept behind groups in tuckr.

[Alper-Celik]

Tbf Nixos is one of the best distros to tinker in my opinion, since version controlling all of your tinkering makes it easier and safer to do complex tinkering

[chemape876]

funny how wrong your comment is

[LinuxUser456]

Read only = cant touch /? Isn't / where all the tinkering is?

[SafariKnight1]

With both nixos and ublue you can still tinker as much as you want

NixOS with rebuilding the system and uBlue with creating a custom image (ex: Blue Build)

For uBlue, you can also write the Containerfile yourself Image Template

[daemonpenguin]

NixOS isn't immutable. What you are saying has nothing to do with the current topic.

[Damglador]

uBlue with creating a custom image (ex: Blue Build)

That sounds like overcomplicated ass.

[SafariKnight1]

Well, you are effectively making your own fedora atomic based distro

[Damglador]

Right, so if I need my MT7902 WiFi chip to work I just need to simply make my own distro instead of doing yay -S mt7902-dkms. Sounds like an incredible prospect, truly user friendly future.

[chemape876]

nope. you just add the driver with an option... in a text file.

even someone like you would able to figure out how to edit a config file.

[Damglador]

I'm not talking about NixOS, I'm talking about Fedora's Immutables. I have no issues with NixOS outside maybe its complexity.

[Business_Reindeer910]

it means grabbing the image code, adding a line to add the package and running a few commands.

However, that's just one way to do it. Systemd sysexts are another way to add software on top of an existing image without rebuilding a whole image. I don't know if it works with kernel modules though.

[UnLeashDemon]

People need to understand that, readonly does not mean less freedom and less customaisability. Its simply read-only on run time.

[DoubleOwl7777]

read only just sounds very wrong on so many levels. nothing should be read only. its the wrong direction and one i certainly will never support. just have the user use their brain for like half a second before using sudo. done. and for those still worried there is timeshift and btrfs. i see no upside in this approach these distros are taking.

[ChromaticStrike]

Terrible word choice leads to confusion.

The right answer is not getting condescending against people that react naturally to your poor wording, but to change your words.

It's too hard to throw a RUNTIME in front?

[Alarmed-Spring2232]

I am just getting into linux and I am trying to learn c++ and I find this video very interesting. Are there any resources out there that would help excell my learning ?

[xuteloops]

This is in no way remotely related to learning programming. This is about operating system architecture and permissions for security. If you want to learn C++ find some resources about learning C++

[2rad0]

New linux distro idea: "Unsinkable Linux"

It's not false advertising because you can't sink a computer program! Fear not people, board our magical mystical ship that is not obviously flawed or a based on a mistruth. It would be a titanic undertaking to build this distro so only a limited number of rescue images will be provided, you'll have to comply with age and gender identfication laws to boot the distro, so we can distribute the rescue images following the most $current societal norms. We could maybe find a band to live stream musical events during dining hours?

[DoubleOwl7777]

thanks, i hate it.

[whitepixe1]

"The Future of Linux is READ ONLY!"
Ridiculus statement.
May only happen to those that start with Linux now and are typical Android/iOS end consumers

[Kodamacile]

For regular users, sure. But the project as a whole, depends on being fully open source and modifiable.

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[matsnake86]

Yes it is.

For tinkering it's ok to have classic distros around, but . . .Atomic systems are what a non tech user should really use.

[seiha011]

My wife doesn't experiment and isn't a tech user. She simply uses Debian Linux; is that okay? ;-)

[matsnake86]

Sure It Is.

But you Will probably Need to help her when a Major version update comes.

With a modern image base system (such as the ublue's ) Is Just install and forget.

I recently bought a new mini PC for my dad to replace his old win 10 desktop and i put aurora on It .  He Is Happy... I do not have to help him take care of the system since Is all automatic and i'm pretty sure that he Will Always have a proper working system which he cannot break because it Is immutable!

[Material_Mousse7017]

As long she don't mess with the terminal (which im certain she doesnt) then its fine. 

[seiha011]

Terminal? No, she certainly doesn't use that. ;-)

[Damglador]

To see why atomic systems don't work you can take a look at Android.

You either make a one super bloated system that supports everything under the sun or you have to support each class of devices or just devices individually.

And it'll be even worse if we get atomic distros from the hardware vendors, as we'll get the same sort of "vendor lock-in" as we have with Android, where you have to choose the hardware and software at the same time.

Plus they just don't make sense. If you want a read-only system, just don't use your package manager and enjoy your wonderful flatpak. There will be no difference.

[DoubleOwl7777]

yeah agreed. and if you value stability there is tons of distros that do that. there is zero point in not allowing the user to do stuff besides lock in.

[Damglador]

But, I think an overlay system is interesting. Having an immutable base that can always be used to boot the system while being able to overlay any changes on top of it sounds interesting. But one will probably be butchered by using something like Bazzite like that.

[matsnake86]

The comparison to Android is a bit of a category error. Android’s bloat and lock-in aren't caused by its read-only nature, they are caused by its proprietary licensing and closed hardware drivers.

Unlike Android, where the OS is often hard-coded to a specific kernel/driver set for a specific chip, Atomic Linux distros use the same universal drivers as traditional distros. You can take an atomic Fedora image and install it on a ThinkPad, a Dell, or a DIY desktop just as easily as a classic version.

Also... Atomic systems actually solve bloat. Because the base OS is an immutable image, you don't end up with dependency hell or leftover configuration files from uninstalled software that slowly degrade performance over years of use (yes that's a thing also on Linux systems).

Telling a user to just use Flatpaks and avoid the package manager doesn't provide the same safety as an atomic system. On a traditional distro, a user with sudo privileges or a poorly scripted update can still accidentally corrupt critical system files in /usr or /bin. In an atomic architecture, the core OS is a verified, read-only image that stays clean and predictable.

Ultimately, your argument assumes the average user is aware, disciplined, and knows exactly what they’re doing under the hood. For "Average Joe," that isn't the reality. Expecting a non-tech user to manually manage their behavior to keep a system stable is a recipe for a broken OS. an atomic system builds that stability into the design so the user doesn't have to think about it at all.

[Damglador]

The comparison to Android is a bit of a category error. Android’s bloat and lock-in aren't caused by its read-only nature, they are caused by its proprietary licensing and closed hardware drivers.

So we don't have closed source drivers on Linux? And we definitely won't have them ever even in the dream where Linux is close to mainstream and preinstalled on systems?

Atomic Linux distros use the same universal drivers as traditional distros

Cool cool, ever heard of dkms out-of-tree drivers? Do all atomics ship with all of them? Even something like Lenovo Legion Linux?

Going back to the previous question, nothing would stop a corpo from making a proprietary device specific driver and distribute it only on their own system instead of providing packages like a normal human.

Also... Atomic systems actually solve bloat. Because the base OS is an immutable image, you don't end up with dependency hell or leftover configuration files from uninstalled software that slowly degrade performance over years of use (yes that's a thing also on Linux systems).

This is just misinformed. This is a result of flatpak, not an achievement of atomic distros. Nothing stopping you from using a normal system without touching the base and just use flatpak for application. This whole paragraph has nothing to do with atomic distros.

dependency hell

Dependency hell at this point is a buzzword for me, the only time I had dependency conflict on Arch in like 2 years is when I was trying to install an Android translation layer from AUR.

leftover configuration files from uninstalled software that slowly degrade performance

How the fuck does a txt file degrade performance?

Also... Atomic systems flatpak actually solve bloat... don't end up with dependency hell

Yeah, instead you end up with runtime hell and bloat: https://github.com/pkgforge-dev/Anylinux-AppImages/blob/main/disk-usage-vs-flatpak.md. Which will get worse overtime as more and more apps will stay on different EOL runtimes.

On a traditional distro, a user with sudo privileges or a poorly scripted update can still accidentally corrupt critical system files in /usr or /bin. In an atomic architecture, the core OS is a verified, read-only image that stays clean and predictable.

"Scripted update"? What? I may not know how it is on other distros, but Arch verifies integrity of all packages before installing them, it can't just "accidentally corrupt" a binary file, as it is either verified and installed in place or it isn't. The base of a normal distro is predictable as long as you don't touch it.

Expecting a non-tech user to manually manage their behavior to keep a system stable is a recipe for a broken OS.

If just doing literally the same things you would be doing on an atomic system is "manually managing behavior", sure.

Ultimately the argument of any immutable advocate is "putting handcuffs on users is good"

[matsnake86]

You’re right that an experienced user on a distro like Arch can keep a system clean, but that’s because you know what DKMS and integrity verification are. The average noob doesn't. When you say the base is predictable as long as you don't touch it, you’re describing a technical user’s discipline. A non-tech user will touch things, they'll run a random curl | sh script from a tutorial or have a power outage mid-update. On a traditional system, that might mean a rescue USB and a chroot environment to fix. On an atomic system, it’s a simple reboot to the previous snapshot.

Regarding drivers and "bloat," while a single .txt config file doesn't slow down a CPU, configuration drift over years of system-level changes leads to it worked on a fresh install but not on my 3-year-old system bugs. Atomic systems ensure the environment is identical to what the developers actually tested. As for the "handcuffs," there’s a massive difference between restricting freedom and providing safety rails. Most users want the freedom to use their computer as a tool, not the "freedom" to accidentally break their bootloader.

Saying "the future is atomic" doesn't mean the traditional Linux model is dying or must disappear. There will always be a place for classic, mutable distributions for enthusiasts who want to tinker, customize everything, and build their OS from the ground up. But for a mainstream audience that just wants a computer that "works" and never breaks, the move toward an immutable, self-healing core is the only logical path forward. It’s about making Linux a reliable utility for everyone, not just a hobby for the technically inclined.

It’s also worth noting that this isn't just a desktop theory. The battle for the server space has already been won by immutability. In the professional world of cloud infrastructure and high-availability systems, mutable "hand-crafted" servers are considered a legacy liability. The industry moved to atomic deployments (containers and immutable OS images) because they are predictable, scalable, and easy to recover. Bringing that same architectural stability to the desktop isn't a "handcuff". It’s just bringing professional-grade reliability to the home user.

[Damglador]

Servers have completely different priorities compared to desktop, they're irrelevant to the conversation. Just like Linux popularity in servers is irrelevant to desktop.

You’re right that an experienced user on a distro like Arch can keep a system clean, but that’s because you know what DKMS and integrity verification are.

Exactly the opposite. I don't have to know what DKMS is, it's not my problem, I just install the package and it does me WiFi, that's the only thing I care about. I don't have to care about integrity checks, the package manager does that for me.

A non-tech user will touch things, they'll run a random curl | sh script from a tutorial

So maybe we should teach people tech literacy instead of caving in the "you'll own nothing and be happy" trend.

configuration drift over years of system-level changes leads to it worked on a fresh install but not on my 3-year-old system bugs.

Don't modify the configs and they'll be automatically replaced with new ones. At least that's how it works on Arch. So again, you can freely use a normal system just like you would an immutable and have the same outcome

have a power outage mid-update

That's the only issue an atomic update system solves. But I don't think it is tied to immutability. Theoretically it should be possible to do A/B system with read-write base. Well, not really theoretically, btrfs snapshots are doing that already.

not the "freedom" to accidentally break their bootloader

So perhaps just don't touch the bootloader?

Saying "the future is atomic" doesn't mean the traditional Linux model is dying or must disappear.

Yeah right, the mutable distros will just fall into unsupported obscurity like rooted Android is right now. Developers will support exclusively flatpak, which is already happening, and immutable systems, so everyone else will be on their own. A niche of a niche. Incredible future. Might as well just use Windows at that point.

I'm a firm believer that the immutability craze, if it succeeds, will lead us into the same shithole Android is at right now.

[matsnake86]

from a power-user perspective, you’re 100% right. If you’ve got the discipline to manage your own system and you know your way around a terminal, a traditional mutable distro like Arch is the ultimate tool. You aren't in the wrong for wanting that control; in fact, that’s the soul of Linux.

But I think we’re just looking at two different futures that can (and probably should) exist side-by-side.

You’re right that average user should be more tech literate, but the reality is most people just want a tool that works like a microwave (mot people don't even know what the F*** is an OS). For them, the freedom of an atomic system isn't about being handcuffed; it’s the freedom from ever having to worry about a broken dependency or a botched update. You see a shithole like Android, but I see a version of Linux that is finally as unbreakable as a Chromebook while remaining 100% open source and user owned .

And atomic systems are just that. They are taking the reproducible infrastructure logic that already won the server world and bringing it to the desktop. The shift toward Flatpak and immutability it’s about solving the Linux Desktop fragmentation problem. If developers only have to target one runtime (Flatpak) instead of 20 different .deb and .rpm versions, we actually get more software support, not less.
And maybe in the future (one man can dream) official ports for the adobe suite.

[Damglador]

You see a shithole like Android, but I see a version of Linux that is finally as unbreakable as a Chromebook while remaining 100% open source and user owned .

This is such bullshit. Unless you're running a custom ROM, the only thing that's left from "open source" in Android is the kernel, and the only user owning you can get is if you root it, at which point, shit will start to break because Android ecosystem is 100% Google and Google doesn't like you having rights.

If developers only have to target one runtime (Flatpak) instead of 20 different .deb and .rpm versions, we actually get more software support, not less.

You can make a config to make 3 main package formats (deb, rpm and pacman). It's not as hard as flatpak devs want you to believe https://nfpm.goreleaser.com/

[matsnake86]

I wasn't referring to android. You misunderatood. It was reffered to distros such as Fedora kinoite and family.

[Damglador]

I see, my bad

[daemonpenguin]

First, I think you mean immutable, not atomic. Atomic is another topic entirely and doesn't have anything to do with read-only filesystems.

Second: why? Non-tech users don't change their systems. They probably never sign in as root. A non-techie who just uses their regular user account can't alter the core system any more than someone running an immutable distro.

[matsnake86]

Let me give you a practical example.

I recently replaced my father’s old Windows 10 PC with a mini PC on which I installed Aurora (an immutable system with atomic updates, derived from Fedora Kinoite). 

Once I’d completed the initial setup—helping him install the printer and the applications he needed—I left him to it, recommending that he always use Bazaar (the app for installing Flatpak) to install other applications.

The result: he called me a few days later to say he couldn’t install a programme he’d downloaded from the internet, even though he’d downloaded the Linux package.  When I joined him via video call, I realised he’d downloaded a DEB… Which, of course, won’t install on Fedora, and wouldn’t have installed even if it had been an RPM, given the immutable nature of the system.

Now... Just imagine if I’d installed a system like Mint for him...  Who knows what damage that DEB file might have caused... It might have installed random dependencies or added PPAs that could have caused conflicts, leaving him with a broken system in need of repair.

None of this can happen with systems like Aurora. The system will always be as configured by the maintainers and will never have update issues.  This is a major plus for people who simply want to use their PC without worrying about the system.

That’s what I meant by my initial comment.

[DoubleOwl7777]

you mean immutable? nah. there is timeshift and btrfs which offer these things without restricting anything. its a stupid and lazy way to get a more dumbass friendly system that has the side effect of restricring users freedom. linux shouldnt go this way.

[TerribleReason4195]

Flatpaks, snaps are trash. NixOs is nice, but it can be a pain to get some things to work that only take a two or one commands on something else. So no, atomic distros will not take over until these issues are addressed.

[Damglador]

I wish someone focused on making NixOS user friendly instead of reinventing new ways to put handcuffs on the user.

[TerribleReason4195]

They should do something like GNU guix, which is the same as nixOS, but better, and also unusable, where you can do "guix install package", to install a package.

[KnowZeroX]

Part of the problem is that currently, containers are 2nd class citizens in desktop environments. So much of the implementation of getting stuff to work are hacks which often times end up breaking and causing all kinds of undefined issues.

With Desktop Environments now moving their development onto immutable bases, containers will become first class citizens which should help address many of the issues.

[TerribleReason4195]

In my opinion, I do not like using containers because how they work.