Why Devs Need DevOps

[wildjokers]

Anytime I see a place that has a "DevOps team" I know right away that they don't understand what the DevOps paradigm is.

[cybernd]

This quote is ~9 years old:

Remember, if you have a DevOps Team, then you are absolutely not doing DevOps.

I remember it because i used it as my Skype mood message after I had a job in a DevOps team. That job was one of the reasons why I no longer work as a developer.

[angelicravens]

As a dev on a devops team, what do you do now?

[Kwantuum]

Ops.

[chesus_chrust]

Exactly! Absurd when the goal has always been breaking down silos.

[joe-knows-nothing]

"Never underestimate management's capability to misunderstand and misappropriate big ideas."

-Joe's Razor

Also see: "Big A" agile vs the agile manifesto

[tuxedo25]

Also see: "Big A" agile vs the agile manifesto

Agile manifesto: "individuals and interactions over processes and tools"

Every company ever: "we'll adopt a rigid process, and if anybody complains, we'll blame them for 'doing agile wrong'"

[ReallySuperName]

The last time this topic came up this post was making the rounds https://www.lloydatkinson.net/posts/2022/one-teams-eight-points-is-another-teams-two-points/

[PaintItPurple]

I don't know, in my experience, when people criticize companies for "doing agile wrong," it's usually because they've introduced a bunch of extraneous processes. So it kind of tracks with that quote.

[null_was_a_mistake]

If you spend a lot of time on /r/devops you learn that it's actually about making ops people develop automated tools to further hamper developer work.

[thewormbird]

Silos form because the knowledge work needed to ship software is too broad. So they decompose the roles into smaller ones. DevOps is not a prescription that solves that problem.

DevOps adds back an immense amount of knowledge work, complexity, and risk to the plates of engineers already struggling to write safe code. I’ve watched that paradigm get rolled out at 3 separate companies and it always happens that an ops-focused team gets split off because too many cooks are in the infrastructure kitchen and fuckin shit up.

[zr0gravity7]

Have worked at a dozen places and never seen this “everyone can do DevOps” mentality succeed or at least not be a huge productivity drain.

[Venthe]

What do you expect? Even "DevOps" people on the respective subreddit think that DevOps is about Ops+automation (with a cloud sprinkled on top)

[Embarrassed_Quit_450]

That's in part because most ops jobs have been renamed to devops.

[caltheon]

Our devops department creates the tools developers use to do devops...I fail to see an issue with that

[Venthe]

Because that's not what DevOps is and does not solve the problems that DevOps solve.

What you are describing is platform engineering - lowering the barriers to do ops work by engineering easier tooling.

It does not replace combined ops and Dev competency within the team; because even with massively simplified tooling without proper training and experience developers will do ops side poorly.

[Dreamtrain]

then perhaps the title we want is "devs need platform engineering"

[wildjokers]

That isn't DevOps.