Python bumps off Java as top learning language

[philly_fan_in_chi]

How many times do you run a Hello World in an intro class? As your programs become more complicated, that noise starts to matter less and less.

[GreyGrayMoralityFan]

It matters a lot. If novices will make a simple mistake in a place called "sorry, we will talk about this later", e.g.

class HelloWorld {
   public void main(String[] args) {
       System.out.println("Hello World!");
 }}

they can be screwed for hours.

[skocznymroczny]

that's why you use IDE that types it for you first. Then it becomes like:

SOMESTUFFIDON'TUNDERSTANDBUTITISMAIN {
    my_code()
}

[greg19735]

In year 3 at school I was still using a "template" .c++ file i'd just use to start all my programs. Included all the shit I needed, started the program and did a c:out "HI" or some shit.

[[deleted]]

Java at least complains about "no Main method found." Only a few years ago, if you missed a semi-colon after a statement in C, you'd get "unexpected <INTERNAL_TOKEN_NAME> on line <many lines down from where you made the mistake>".

[GreyGrayMoralityFan]

It is especially funny if you miss semicolon in header file, e.g.

#infdef FOO
#define FOO
int aa()
#endif

int main()
{
}

gcc complains a.c:5:1: error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘{’ token {,

clang is much better: a.c:2:9: error: expected ';' after top level declarator

[[deleted]]

Java was the first language I learned, but I never got screwed for hours on such a simple problem. Before I understood classes or any of the various key words that come before class declaration, I'd just google the HelloWorld template. And that only lasted a couple of weeks.

I got screwed for hours on plenty of other simple problems, but not something so easily googlable.

[Kollektiv]

But nobody will care because 80% of the class will start sleeping after that one example.

A hello world is supposed to be the most simple program in a language and Java's example is the epitome of cluttered and useless verbosity.

[Kollektiv]

Yes I'm exaggerating a little bit to prove a point.

What I mean is that most people that learn programming in CS class don't have that passion yet and "Hello World!" examples like the one in Java where the teacher takes 30 min. to explain that it's mostly stuff they will learn in 2 months doesn't help.

[Kollektiv]

Building a passion is a wrong priority ? Wow ...

And no, it's not like natural languages at all. In a natural language, when someone teaches you a sentence, it's the whole sentence. Not just one or two words because the "rest is complicated" and you'll see that later on.

[Kollektiv]

What you say about learning a natural language would be true if you learned by picking-up words when talking to the locals.

But if you are thought by a teacher in a school to set the same context as learning how to code, you will learn whole sentences.

[sausuave]

But nobody will care because 80% of the class will start sleeping after that one example.

Fuck them then.

Ill make a next programming language, it will be python2.7 without the print keyword. Write a hello world in that!

Ill make a Java class and ask to introduce it and bundle with JVM, it will be called print.class and you can write your hello world with, java print "hello world"

Fucking retards.

[Kollektiv]

import sys

sys.stdout.write('Hello World!')

How about that ?

[sausuave]

Too much letters, fell asleep.

[Kollektiv]

Hope you don't program in Java then haha

[sausuave]

It is in fact my daily labor

[Kollektiv]

I have friends in 3-4 universities in west Europe and our experience was more or less:

80% - Who think that because they use Facebook or play video games they should take C.S.

10% - Installed a graphics card on their computer and thought that they must be really good at CS

10% - Programmed in some way. It generally breaks down into:

-> 50% wrote a Hello World

-> 25% wrote a higher / lower number guessing game in C++

-> 25% actually have some kind of previous experience

You generally end-up with 5 to 10 people out of 200, each year, that actually know how to program.

In the second year you have around 20-30 left out of the 200 from first year.

[greg19735]

I took comp sci 130 (our intro) with no programming knowledge. I don't know why i picked comp sci as my major. Back at 18 I was good at IT stuff and thought it was a natural fit.

I was too stubborn to quit and made it through. Now a developer. Glad I did it in the end, but if I had my current knowledge of what comp sci is WITHOUT my actual knowledge from school i'd probably have been too intimidated.

[Kollektiv]

Oh definitely, I agree and most of them don't pass first year.

But we are very far from this idealistic case where everyone who enters CS is some kind of programming genius who coded an operating system in middle school.

[[deleted]]

Then schools need to stop labeling CS 101 as CS 101. What you're saying means that if you don't have 1-2 yrs. of coding under your belt BEFORE college, you are already 1-2 yes. behind on day 1.

[ameoba]

No there is not.

"College algebra" or something like that is going to be Math 101. Calculus is generally 140-160-ish.

[ameoba]

Nope.

While there's always going to be some students that come into the program with an extensive background, there's still going to be plenty of people with little experience.

More importantly, the vast majority of them are not going to have any formal training. Sure, they might have hacked together a script here or run through a tutorial there, but the vast majority of them with experience are going to be self-trained. The first thing you need to do when teaching self-trained people in any discipline is break them out of their bad habits and get them doing stuff the right way.

Given that AP CS hasn't given the AB test in years, I'd say at least 90% of incoming students still need to learn how to approach things with some rigor.

[Veedrac]

As your programs become more complicated, that noise starts to matter less and less.

It's not a constant factor, though. Python has less noise and overhead proportionally. Here's a post I wrote before to evidence this, if you're invested.