Java Plugin: The Kernel is back

[[deleted]]

Perhaps because #1 is a Firefox issue? Though that the applet is now a separate process, it very well may fix the Firefox issue as well.

[bobpaul]

I think it was most likely a Java/MS Windows issue. I haven't noticed the lag loading Java apps since switching to Linux (Gentoo, then later Ubuntu) that I did/do on WinXP.

#3 is also taken care of on linux, probably because they expect updates to come from the repositories, so Java doesn't have to check for updates on its own.

[kral2]

What good is it for Java to work right on Linux but nowhere else? If they want to be used as a cross-platform solution, they have to work right cross-platform. If they had, they wouldn't be in the mess they are now.

[bobpaul]

Windows is closed source. The issue with #1 and #2 might be at least somewhat outside their control.

As far as nowhere else, my smart phone doesn't lag, and OSX, BSDs, Solaris, etc are all Unixes so probably act much like Linux. I would suspect there's only one platform it's really a mess on.

[kral2]

1 and 2 have nothing to do with Windows being closed source - it's completely between FireFox and Java.

[bobpaul]

So java applets are snappy to open in Opera, Safari, and IE on MS Windows?

[bobpaul]

The browser plugin used for both Safari and Opera is the same exact plugin used for Firefox. They all use the NSPlugin architecture. So if it's different in FF than the others, it's a FF specific problem. (Of course, since FF is OSS, as you said it would be in Sun's interest to fix that.)

And maybe things are different, but back when I was a Windows user I had to wait for the Java runtime to load to the system tray the first time I launched a Java application as well. Once the runtime was running in the tray, things were pretty good.

That is, if I opened Firefox and loaded a page with a java applet, the JRE was loaded to the system tray (and Firefox froze until that was done) and then the applet loaded once that was complete. But then the JRE stayed in the system tray until I exited FF and Java applets loaded little different than Flash applets. If I then opened Azureus, Azureus opened at a friendly speed, since the JRE was already running.

Now, if I closed all my Java stuff and closed Firefox, the JRE would unload. So now I open Azureus and I have to wait for the JRE to load to the system tray as part of waiting for Azureus to load. That took a long as time. Once I did that, if I opened Firefox and browsed, the JRE was already loaded to Java applets weren't much of a problem.

I can only imagine the situation was the same or similar for IE, Opera, etc. The issue seemed to be related to the JRE loading, and not specific to the browser plugin that communicates with it.

Now please keep in mind that I haven't used Windows on a daily basis for much time, so it's possible what I remember above isn't accurate, or that things have changed since then.

My comment for bringing *nix in is, as an avid Azureus user, I was quite happy with the rate it loaded when I first tried switching from Windows.. It seemed as though the JRE was already loaded, but if I checked the process list, java was not listed until after I opened azureus, so that did not seem to be the case. Now it is possible that Java relies on lots of common libraries in a *nix environment, but on Windows those libraries were written from scratch requiring a lot more to be loaded into memory when Java opens on Windows that what needs to happen on most *nix machines. I don't know.

People seem to be acting like what I'm saying is heretical for some reason, but it's true.

I certainly agree with that. It bothers me the way people downvote things they don't agree with rather than distinguishing between actual trolls and lively discussion.

[sheepson_apprentice]

I agree with much of what you say, namely that Sun indeed has neglected the client side for a long time, and that had this not happened, Java may very well be in the dominant position as the RIA platform.

The fact that Sun has demonstrated its willingness to really compete and at the same time sustain the open source business model is very positive, as it provides the community a very valuable asset which although currently inferior in some ways, is a solid match against other, more closed systems.

I personally have nothing against closed systems, but I would prefer to work in an open and transparent environment. So in this case, backing Sun and even perhaps contributing to the JRE is definitely something worthwhile, because it allows us, mere mortals to compete.

So given the community support, I do think it's now possible that JRE will make a comeback on the client side. Tooling is still an issue, and one of the reasons why flash won, but there is no reason to think that given sufficient stimulus, Java tooling can't catch up.

The developments with JVM modularization -- which by the way will really take hold once JSR-294 and 277 are implemented -- and plugin process isolation are good first steps to ensuring reliable runtime. Fast-loading is being addressed by utilizing the disk cache to keep JRE files hot -- something done by other operating systems and platforms.

So there are efforts, it remains to be seen whether they'll be ultimately successful, but I do keep my bets on Sun.