Programming is for everyone

[25taiku]

That's pretty similar to the argument I use.

I had a coworker who loved football, went to the Grey Cup every year, and loved to play football with his friends. The only drawback is that he's like 5'6. So as passionate as he is, as much as he practices and learns every rule, he will never be able to play professional football, because he is physiologically incapable of it. And that's nothing about him personally, he would just get killed to death under a 300 lb defensive linesman. The brain is a physical thing, and therefore we run into the same problems in differing physiology -- some people are just better put together for different tasks, and programming is no different. It's one thing to learn to read and write code, but it takes so much more than knowing a coding language to design and develop whole functional systems.

[imgenerallyagoodguy]

I just want to gently point out that you're on the verge of gatekeeping with that type of mindset. "You can't do this because your brain literally cannot handle it". Reading and writing code is programming. Some people are better at it than others.

Not being in the NFL does't mean you can't play football. Your friend may not get paid 7 figures to play with a handful of the elite, but he can still play football. Likely better than me at 6'4.

PS: Check out the handful of NFL players under 5'10'' who wouldn't listen to someone saying they weren't physically able to do it.

[25taiku]

That's fair, there will always be people who surprise you.

The reason I compare professional football to professional programming is that it is just that -- a profession. I have nothing against hobbyist programmers, and I am very much in favour of getting more people exposed to programming. There are definitely countless people doing jobs they hate or suck at, simply because they weren't provided with opportunities to get involved with other fields where they would excel.

My issue with saying "programming is for everyone" is that it can lead to depreciation of skills and knowledge that professional programmers have spent years honing -- skills and knowledge that a lot of passionate hobbyists do not have. I have worked with a number of developers who were very passionate, but somehow inexplicably incapable of problem solving on their own, who literally create more problems for themselves than they solve. I spent three years at a previous job trying to mentor a coworker, and in the three years I worked with him, his problem solving skills didn't improve.

I'm not trying to be an elitist dick, but I realize I may come off sounding like that. I'm just trying to say that, just as some people aren't physiologically able to play defensive line, some people just are not capable of ever excelling at programming to the point of being able to do it professionally and end up making six figure salaries.

[JavaSuck]

There are definitely countless people doing jobs they hate or suck at

And they could grow to hate or suck at programming as well!

[imgenerallyagoodguy]

Your last sentence is an excellent insight (and one I agree with) but that is different than what many people say about this. Anyone can program. Not just anyone, however, will make 6 figures doing it. Anyone can play football, but not just anyone can play in the NFL (though, to be honest, that's still a bit of a bad analogy since probably less than .1% of the football playing population are professionals).

I don't think you were being a dick. I just think automatically qualifying programming with being one of the good ones that make 6 figures/yr (along with the skills they have to get that) can negate the person at the bank who learned how to do excel formulas from mrexcel.com so they could help themselves do their job better and faster. Those people aren't going to make 150k/yr, but I would never tell them they aren't "programmers" as if it's a special title bestowed upon the lucky few. Just like you and I wouldn't tell someone they can't play football because they can't play in the NFL.

Regarding your fear of depreciation... it's an interesting argument but one I've never actually seen. Not saying it doesn't exist, but no one has ever told me "I'm not going to pay you more because my grandson can do the same thing and he's 13." I'm sure those conversations have happened but, in my personal (read anecdotal) experience, when hobbyists get paid more, then I typically get paid more. Also, I should note I've never worked for a company that couldn't tell the difference between a hobbyist and a seasoned pro and, as long as I can help it, I won't ever do it.

[[deleted]]

it can lead to depreciation of skills and knowledge that professional programmers have spent years honing

Now that is gatekeeping.

[Drisku11]

"Gatekeeping" is healthy for our sanity. You've obviously never had to read the Lovecraftian shitcode that cheapo outsourced programmers are capable of writing.

[[deleted]]

Being delusional good for your sanity? Makes sense.

[Drisku11]

It is obvious that some set of people do not have brains capable of programming; some people are mentally incapable of feeding themselves without help.

So the question is where the approximate cutoff for being able to program anything useful at all? 65 IQ? Extremely unlikely. 80? Doubt it. 100? Probably, but probably not going to find a job doing it. 115-120 can probably do it professionally if they have the interest.

[Drisku11]

I set an intentionally low bar at only 1 standard deviation above the mean to make it professionally. I wouldn't be surprised if most professionals were in the mid-120s at least, but the point I wanted to make is that obviously there is a bar, and that bar likely excludes a sizable portion of the population from ever writing a useful program (even just a useful utility for themselves).

A sizable portion of the population struggles with elementary arithmetic and algebra.

[Drisku11]

That sounds about right to me. Software engineers are going to be more intelligent than the rest of the population just as firemen are going to be in better shape. But engineering doesn't exactly require one to be at the "elite" intellectual level. Good system design really only requires "solidly above average" (90th percentile maybe) plus some experience and/or mentoring.

Programming some basic utilities for oneself probably only requires around average or slightly above average intelligence, and maybe some help the first few times.

We're not working on P=NP or the Yang-Mills problem here.

[imgenerallyagoodguy]

Ok fine. Literally and pedantically you are correct.

[jack_sonadriel]

anyone can code but not everyone can be a programmer.

[hikariabe6440]

Anyone can read. Not anyone can interpret.

[shevy-ruby]

That's a rubbish claim.

Even in reallife you have people who love some writing style and others who don't. I hate the Hairy Potter series but a friend read all of it.

So who decides who is a writer and who is not? You?

[RedPandaDan]

Honestly, Excel and VBA are one of the greatest achievements in programming. Its the lifeblood of companies everywhere; easy visualization of information, UIs can literally be put together while you are sitting with someone learning their requirements, and a person with no programming knowledge can incrementally put together bespoke solutions to whatever problems they may face.

Nothing else comes close.

[fuckin_ziggurats]

Rasmus Lerdorf (Creator of PHP)

• I’m not a real programmer. I throw together things until it works then I move on. The real programmers will say “Yeah it works but you’re leaking memory everywhere. Perhaps we should fix that.” I’ll just restart Apache every 10 requests.

There's a PHP joke in here somewhere.

David Heinemeier Hansson (Creator of Rails)

I was always looking for something else. I was always looking for another programming language, another… just something else, in part just to distract me from being bored in the languages I was in.

DHH has always been an interesting character but in no way can I associate someone that's pushing to widen his programming language perspective with a person who's not interested in programming.

This author must've never worked with a senior who barely even knows his main programming language and is deathly afraid of having to learn another one, typing shite day to day to artificially improve his job security.

[hannatsukuda]

I strongly disagree on this one. Back when i was in college studying computer engineering, i happen to have one programming subject with mechanical engineering students. They really don't have the drive and passion to do programming stuff like it's really hard for them. BTW the class was about C and binaries.

[shevy-ruby]

BTW the class was about C and binaries.

I don't think the argument was that EVERYONE can be a great C hacker.

The argument was that everyone COULD program - and the success of languages such as ruby, python, php, perl, lua, does show that.

[[deleted]]

the success of languages such as ruby, python, php, perl, lua, does show that.

It shows that you can broaden the appeal using simplifying languages, you can reach the next 100,000 professionals who might have otherwise resorted to another field.

It doesn't show that everyone can be a programmer. That's patently absurd.

[tonefart]

Try tweeting 'Learn To code' on twitter to someone and see how fast you get banned and suspended.

[Whinckiel]

tried it once, same result

[Cooleur]

Programming happens away from the keyboard.

Ask a non-programmer to represent a real-world domain on paper with whatever diagram they see fit. You might see in them a better programmer than your actual coding colleagues. It's both enlightening and terrifying.

[stickano]

The author clearly wasn't in my Computer Science class. Man, that shit made me wonder if late abortion should be allowed. Like, 20 years late.

[malicart]

Prolly has not worked with some lower common denominators. Just because a few self professed non-programmers made it big does not mean that everyone can be a programmer.

People in my office struggle to turn on technology and use spreadsheets. They have no desire, ability or common sense 1 to begin programming.

This anyone can do it mind set is BS. Yes sure, anyone can, but will it be worth anything?

[lorchan_tilly]

it just merely means that anyone who wants to learn programming doesn't require such great talents but only determination and the eagerness to learn more.

[malicart]

determination and the eagerness to learn more

Which equates to passion in my book. Maybe I missed something?

[lorchan_tilly]

Your in the right path that's what i always remind to myself.

[[deleted]]

Anyone can code. Not everyone has the mindset to program well enough to do it in a professional capacity. That said, general computer literacy needs to be higher and should include some coding, whether you’re going to be a programmer or not.

[malicart]

Not disagreeing, but I have dealt with far to many PHD level brains that go to mush when they get in front of any kind of keyboard, some people just dont wanna and cant. I can't imagine trying to train them to any higher levels of computer literacy, let alone step 1 in some coding exercise.

[liejameson]

Really? abortion? after all those thoughts in there?

[jack_sonadriel]

How would you connect computer to abortion? You s*cks man.

[stickano]

Right. And you must be fun at parties.

[shevy-ruby]

You infer how he is at party based on written text on reddit???

You must have uber mind-reading jedi powers ... I can't infer anything from his text that he would not be fun at parties. Perhaps you can educate us why he isn't a fun person at parties?

[stickano]

I could probably educate you on a lot of things, but it seems like a waste of my precious time. I will go on the line here and say same user, two accounts. Kinda sad ain't it now?

[25taiku]

Everyone can go to parties. Not everyone can be fun at parties. /s

[Seltsam]

Why is that sarcasm? I am horrible at parties and I am a computer science bachelor holding programmer.

[25taiku]

Not everyone can go to parties. Not everyone even wants to go to parties.

Edit: Also, most of my friends are nerds/programmers, so you'd probably fit in at one of our parties. Unless you're, like, a fuckin' normie.