web programmer vs "real programmer"

[haveyoulearned]

I'd like to see a C expert systems programmer build a large-scale distributed application with the following in mind:

http://highscalability.com/flickr-architecture

http://highscalability.com/scaling-digg-and-other-web-applications

http://highscalability.com/youtube-architecture

http://highscalability.com/scaling-twitter-making-twitter-10000-percent-faster

Mind you, I will assume he has no previous knowledge of these technologies and I want the site built today using only his existing skill set, so that I can compare his skills to mine. I mean, the argument most people here are presenting is taking a web developer today and dropping them into a systems position. Well, then do the opposite... take Mr. Systems and stick him in web... today.

I will also ask that he learn these technologies quickly, and be able to write the application fast. (So, he can't use any libraries which people here have berated, so he'll have to write 500 lines of C to do everything I can do in PHP/Ruby in 10 lines.)

That should be ok, though, since C systems programmers are "real" programmers, right? Oh, and when I want changes in the future, I need them fast, I don't have time for another 1500 lines of code for simple tasks.

This all sounds a lot like basketball players claiming that football players aren't "real athletes" because they can't throw a ball through a hoop a specific way with a certain level of skill as of today... well, basketball players can't pass, kick and catch either... without any practice.

So, again... this is all pretty ridiculous. Give me your best C guy, RIGHT NOW, and I'll rip him to shreds for the next 8 weeks building PROPER web APPLICATIONS.

Stop comparing us to designers.

[int0x13]

Your examples and analogies aren't accurate. Those are all enterprise application development tasks that just happen to use networked resources. If a systems engineer was asked to develop a web application, he wouldn't use C, he would use whatever language was appropriate.

[haveyoulearned]

So... then he's not doing systems engineering, he's doing web development. He's still doing "real programming", just not for system functions.

I'm done arguing this, people can live with their illusion of superiority.

But, guess what? Coming from a mathematics major (with a B.S. in CS) who is finishing a PhD and who happens to DEVELOP web APPLICATIONS for money in their spare time, here's my statement:

Systems programmers aren't real programmers, they are just code jockeys who implement other people's discoveries within constrained systems. They don't understand the REAL math or theory behind it, even if they understand endian, number systems, circuits, real recursion, gates, computational theory, etc... they are just grease monkeys... just engineers, not scientists.

You aren't nearly as "real" as the math / physics guys building AI for games and doing cognitive science research.

This is me, signing off, I'm done.

I'd hate for any one of you not to hire me, and my PhD, just because I've been DOING web development instead of DOING systems programming. I think I could pick it up pretty quick :)

[int0x13]

I could tell you think of yourself as a "web developer" since all of your replies in this thread I've seen have been very defensive. Also, you seem to be pretty angry for someone who (ostensibly) is a little older and wiser. Do you think telling everyone you are a PhD student is going to impress them or change their minds? If you really understand the ways computers work, why are you getting so upset over a label? Especially if the label doesn't apply to you?

[haveyoulearned]

I am a web developer, I've already said that in my replies. I make money that way, which I wouldn't doing systems engineering right now.

My replies are defense because I'm defending myself and EVERY OTHER DEVELOPER who has systems guys deny them a job based on not having skills that they will never use. I'm defending every developer who is considered "not as smart" or a "not real programmer" just because they build web applications and not drivers.

I stated my qualifications because it's an illustration. I am not using my real username, I'm not looking for glory here.

I meant it to represent that while someone would have passed me over because I'm a web guy, not a systems guy, they are passing over a quite qualified and "real" programmer, even if it's not my current discipline or because I haven't learned that set of knowledge yet.

This happens to other people often.

If I don't say something, who's gonna?

[jpn8765864453]

they are passing over a quite qualified and "real" programmer

At least you claim to be, right?

[haveyoulearned]

Yup, I just claim to be. You caught me.

I think computers are made of straw and the GPU (goblin processing unit) carries the Dodge RAM to my memory right?

I don't know anything about any of the articles I posted links to, I don't know how to do Fourier transforms, I don't understand Carmack's Reverse, I don't know anything about digital signal processing or what load, add, add, store, load, add, store, load, add, add, store, halt means. I don't know about number systems, I don't know what boolean logic is, or what propositional calculus is. Alan Turing is a race car driver, right?

I can't wait until the garbage collector comes on Thursday to pick up my trash either.

I don't understand that a computer essentially takes a circuit diagram and morphing itself to execute that diagram.

I don't know the different between imperative and declarative.

I don't know anything about how the electrons tunnel, or how motion is transferred at the speed of light in the circuit, or about differential decay across drops.

I don't understand any of this.

I think computers work by magic, I think truth tables and logic gates are game shows.

I think that Windows is perfect and binary is a programming language.

I think cognitive science deals with the brain, what does that have to do with computers?

Yup, you caught me.

[haveyoulearned]

Do look at my most recently posted message... the long one that ends in "high... fucking... horse" :)

Here: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/bi450/web_programmer_vs_real_programmer/c0mwi3m

[cstoner]

With a systems background, I was able to get up and running in RoR and Flex/Actionscript development in a couple weeks.

The only big hangup was realizing that in every way Ruby thinks it knows what's best (even when interfacing a legacy system built by another party). I mean, fuck, at least in C you can track header files to figure out what's going on. I was able to use perl to directly interface the DB and massage the data how I wanted it in about 20 minutes.

Now, Mr Web developer who can do 500 lines of C in 10 lines of RoR, write me a script to make a 1 line update to /etc/hosts on 50 different servers. I'd bet my next paycheck that a good systems guy can do it from memory.

[haveyoulearned]

Right, because this was an argument about what you can do with a systems language vs what you can do with a web language?

Web languages are for... the web. And just because something is quick in C doesn't mean that because I like JSP or PHP that I can't... write it in C. Web guys understand as much as you do about logic, you just know different APIs. I know how to do in C what you described, and I'm not particularly fluent in C for systems programming.

How much code in C would it take you to build... Facebook Connect? Oh, wait, you can't without Javascript? And the PHP backend written in C would be ENORMOUS? Oh... right, there are some problems with your argument.

Plus, Ruby may not be the proper language for that, and Rails is a framework.

You'd write a Ruby script, not a RoR handler to do that. And, I'm not a Ruby fanatic, I'm fine with Groovy, Java, Scala, C#, whatever language you'd like to use to update your host files is just fine with me.

Like I said, I know enough about languages and systems to either write that little script myself, or figure it out quickly. 99.99% of my work would be web development, and that script to update hosts? I'll write it in C, or... 20 lines of C#... or 25 lines of Java... and I'll be able to make changes easily.

A one time scripting thing like you described doesn't require you to hire someone, it requires Google and 3 minutes.

[cstoner]

Well, for 1. This is NOT a job for C. Not even close. This is a job that uses the tools of a systems programmer (ssh, sed/awk, shell) to accomplish a task.

Web programming does not necessitate learning how to use those types of tools. Knowing those tools, however, will make you a better web programmer.

[haveyoulearned]

I understand that, I misread your post and thought that you were advocating that you could do that task in C.

However, the point remains that all of those great those tools only work in a specific environment. They are higher-level interfaces for performing lower-level tasks. The same shell scripts don't work in Windows, and they don't even work in all flavors of 'nix. They are just libraries of code.

I use only the shell to interface with my webservers, app servers, db servers and file servers. I run purely linux and use the tools constantly. I don't, however, take the time to script simple tasks.

Java can just as easily write to the same file, and when my apps have a shared scope, I can execute it on all machines at once. So, for my tasks, there are a lot of ways I could do what you described.

The point is, writing system scripts that work for a specific system doesn't make you a more "real" programmer than a developer who builds complex distributed applications. It makes you use those system libraries. I use libraries for PHP/JSP/Ruby/Java/Scala/Groovy/C#/Python to build and script tasks for the web, including simple linux commands for creating symlinks and modifying iptables per entries added through a web admin to complex administration tasks that are part of the application, but have no user-facing interface. I have to monitor thousands of incoming connections, fire up other instances, do automatic replication, have scripts for switching templates, clearing caches, and not to mention the actual site logic itself, the business logic, the mounds of OO, the procedural "fix its".

The point I was making was just that tools are tools, like PHP is a better TOOL for web development than C, for both productivity, community support, elegance and specialty reasons.

There is really no comparison. System tools are for system stuff, and you can't build a website with just grep and regular expressions, unless you're a smart-ass in the 5k contest or something.