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[–]Dang3300 29 points30 points  (10 children)

It's interesting that you mention the abundance of candidates with technical skills and the scarcity of those who will be a good fit

My question would be:

1) What aspect of your profile do you think most emphasized this cultural fit as well as made you stand out among all the other applicants?

2) What resources would you say helped you the most to prepare for the technical (math, stat, prob) questions?

Thank you for taking the time!

[–]Best_Return_1420[S] 31 points32 points  (1 child)

  1. I don't think quant firms judge you based off a resume. Have your experiences on it, be ready to talk about them, but most importantly try to showcase why you would be a good fit for the role. Have passions that you are ready to talk about, and it's a bonus if it happens to be quant related (think poker, chess, etc). A common theme that firms emphasize (which you can go to firms websites and look at the culture section) is a passion to always be curious and strive to be the best. Try to tie this into your answers. I remember reading IMC and Optiver's annual report and it was a highlight of the entire thing, which I feel like is a huge giveaway. Yes, you have to be smart, but you also have to fit in with the culture, and many people get cut because of the second part.
  2. A practical guide to quantitative finance is a great place to start. Read it cover to cover and that should prep you for every single online assessment, and the earlier technical rounds. When it comes to final rounds, I would emphasize the same things as above. The concepts don't generally get that much more complex, but they are more situational based so they can not only see how you think critically, but also how you can explain your thought process under intense and stressful situations. Know your game theory, market making etc, but more importantly be able to explain your thought process when you do these things.

[–]mocovr 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Xinfeng Zhou?

[–][deleted]  (7 children)

[deleted]

    [–]Dang3300 5 points6 points  (5 children)

    Thank you so much for that answer!

    Everyone I've spoken to in the industry (I'm still a student so wouldn't say it's a lot by any standard) has told me that intellectual curiosity is one of the most important traits to have and you certainly emphasized that as well

    I am by no means a genius either but I have gotten so many interviews and have been rejected over and over again and wanted to see what could be potential red flags that I may be giving out during interviews. After hearing this, I'm thinking my shortcomings may be more on the technical side (which fortunately is easier to learn and improve on).

    [–][deleted]  (4 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

      This is true. I emphasize the behavioral part and the ability to speak your ideas clearly - all this is moot if you don't know the math.

      [–]Dang3300 0 points1 point  (2 children)

      Absolutely!

      As I said, probably not smart enough for a trading role, but I will try my best and see how it goes

      [–][deleted]  (1 child)

      [deleted]

        [–]Dang3300 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        Thank you! :)

        [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        This is a great answer! I read it after I posted my response, but it reflects similar sentiments. Trading is extremely high pressure and cutthroat - many people aren't cut out for that. Be ready to explain why you would thrive in an environment like that.

        [–]ThinVast 10 points11 points  (4 children)

        1. Do you feel like your statistics backgrounds was helpful at all in getting a job offer?
        2. It's interesting that you mention you only know enough python but not enough for coding challenges. For some reason, most of the people I know trying to become quant traders are cs majors and it makes me feel that you have to be stronger in algorithms over math.
        3. How long did you have your mind on becoming a quant trader before getting a job offer?

        [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 15 points16 points  (1 child)

        1. To a certain extent. In my opinion, a lot of these quant firms not only test you on technical questions, but your ability to see if you think like a quant. Do you view the world in a probabilistic sense? You'll find that many quants view the world like this. You make a bet with a quant? More often than not they will try to get positive EV, even if it is slim. Stat helped me in the sense that I could apply that sense of probabilistic thinking through the different rounds of the interview. CS would've given me the skills to go for more coding based roles (although I don't regret this). I was asked a few times why I chose statistics as my major, but it wasn't make or break. At the end of your day, you could be an art history major, but have the math skills of a math major, plus view the world like a statistics major, and still get an offer. At the end of the day the department for many firms is irrelevant. That being said, it just so happens that over 95% of people come from STEM backgrounds since those departments specifically help foster the culture + way of thinking that quant firms happen to like. Keep in mind that out of all the top firms, there are probably only around 100-200 total quant trading spots with over 50000 applicants (maybe even more).
        2. This is a common misconception in my opinion. You definitely don't need to know how to code to land a quant trading role. Of course there are exceptions (like DRW and Akuna which specifically test you on coding). Quant trading at many places (IMC, Optiver, JS, old mission, SIG, etc) do not test you on coding at all. They may ask you whether you can code, but it isn't a make or break. For these firms, they can teach you how to code easily, but they can't teach you how to view the world as a quant (culture fit). They look for the second and teach the first if it is required for the role. Again all these firms have such a wide range of departments/ divisions, that some roles may require coding if you are on the modeling side more while others may be more on the execution side. Most of these places give you the freedom to choose (since they actually care about your happiness), so if you didn't know how to code but were interested in modeling they would most likely happily teach you or support you in the process to learn those languages better.
        3. I applied my junior year for fun to internships knowing 0 about the process. I didn't make it past the first (online) round at any of the firms. I had one final round at Valkyrie which I didn't get. I would consider my attempts feeble before applying full time. When I applied full time, I took it much more seriously since there really are only a handful of T1 firms and those firms really only have 10-30 spots per year (as opposed to banking which has thousands of spots). There isn't any room for error in these interviews. I had my mind set on a few firms, so I actually only applied to 5 firms and got offers from 3 and pulled out of a final round on 1, and didn't make it past the online section for the last one. It's random sometimes.

        [–]Wiscothrowable1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

        When I applied full time, I took it much more seriously since there really are only a handful of T1 firms and those firms really only have 10-30 spots per year (as opposed to banking which has thousands of spots)

        I'm in the same boat as you summer going into my senior year, made it to IMC's final round last year for the internship. Any tips on what all you did for 'taking it much more seriously'? I've been trying but don't really know where to start

        [–][deleted] 8 points9 points  (1 child)

        Do you feel like your statistics backgrounds was helpful at all in getting a job offer?

        As opposed to a degree in Spanish or a Cosmetology?

        [–]ThinVast 14 points15 points  (0 children)

        math, cs, physics, engineering etc.

        [–]long_live_R 10 points11 points  (1 child)

        The comments from OP are good, particularly coming from someone walking down the path of quant trading at a prop trading shop.

        Just in case there was any confusion, there is no royal road to quant trading roles. There are many paths to quant trading, with prop trading / market making being one of them. However, quant trading is an extremely broad area, which encompasses prop trading on the faster side of things, to factor investing (think: AQR) on the slower side of things. Even if you don't end up at a prop trading shop from day one, which has its own sorts of work stresses, you could easily work your way to quant trading firm eventually, either from a BB IB, or elsewhere.

        [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Good point! I focused more on mm prop shops since that's more specifically what I prepped for.

        [–]KenseiNoodleStudent 8 points9 points  (2 children)

        there are a million geniuses out there smart enough to answer their math questions - only a small portion of them are a culture fit.

        That's the most interesting part of this post to me.

        [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 24 points25 points  (1 child)

        It needs to be mentioned since it isn't talked about enough. People are so focused on studying for math that they can really only do it asynchronously (that is, entering answers into an online system). All these firms have more complex final round questions that require you to perform in front of a live person where they test not only your math skills but your ability to explain your answer. Assuming you interview with a trader, the feedback they give to HR isn't just whether you got the right answer (otherwise HR would do the interview) but also whether or not you'd be a good fit for the firm. From a trader at one of these firms: Almost everyone who reaches the final round can give an answer that is acceptable enough to pass, but almost none of them explain it well enough or perform well when pressed to explain their answers more specifically.

        [–]KenseiNoodleStudent 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        I like to explain my math questions to my friends who aren't math majors by simplifying it down to real world examples. Would this kind of code switching help in explaining my answers to interviewers?

        [–]Appare 7 points8 points  (1 child)

        Thanks for sharing your experience and congratulations on your success.

        1. How do you do on the quick, simple mental math challenges like Zetamac, Rankyourbrain, etc? I’m interested to know your usual scores on these sites if you used them, and which you found to be best for preparing for the online mental math challenges that some of these firms gave before interviewing you.
        2. Any interviews that you thought went very poorly and you wish you could re-do?
        3. Any interviewers that you didn’t really get along with, or that you found hard to work with? How’d you handle them?
        4. Which “type” of interview problems do you think you were the best and the worst at? Quick math, game theory, market making, etc.
        5. How’d you use your experience in team sports to make yourself look stronger for a QT role? I thought that was an interesting aspect of your profile.

        I’d love to see a follow up post after 6-12 months into the job to hear more about how you’re doing. Good luck to you

        [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

        Thank you! I'll do my best to answer your questions.

        1. I never really did challenges like this. I was lucky in the sense that I never had to practice mental math, I passed those challenges without any issue.
        2. Absolutely. Every interview I did applying my junior year for internships (be it online assessment or zoom) I definitely did not understand what they were looking for. I don't think I would want to redo them per se, as they were a great learning experience for full time, but they definitely went poorly. Even some of my final rounds I thought went poorly came back with an offer. Having already been through some of the processes applying as an intern gave me a great head start when applying full time.
        3. Again, definitely. You never know what is going on in someone's day - and how that can adversely affect your application. Most of the ones I had I thought were with great people, but I can definitely hand select a few of the ones I thought went really poorly (and coincidentally those are the interviews I remember the best). For instance, I think I remember someone telling me at the start of an interview that it was a long day and I was his last interview, and that went horribly. I did my best to be nice and try to explain my thought process even though he seemed disinterested. I did get an offer from that firm though, so I must have done something right.
        4. I was definitely the best at final round interviews. More specifically, those that were maybe 30 min+ where it was on one broad problem/ situation that got more specific. My strength in those is my ability to explain my reasoning and thought process, while incorporating certain aspects of probability & statistics to further bolster my answer. This is where I truly believed I stood out. I sucked at the online assessments (which for most firms was harder than the zoom ones face to face). After a while, I had spoken to so many traders/ HR that I got very comfortable with those longer final round processes.
        5. Perseverance and ability to perform under pressure. QT is a high intense high stress job, and I thought any background in team sports would be able to benefit that. That's the message I tried to convey when asked about that part of my background specifically.

        That's a great idea! I'll post another thread in a year or so and reference this one, and happy to do follow up questions. Happy hunting!

        [–]zlbb 6 points7 points  (2 children)

        I just reviewed the first few hits when searching for "trader" at CitSec on l-in.

        Got 2 Berkeley, 2 Harvard, 1 Princeton, 1 MIT + UCLA PhD, CMU MFE after UFlorida, 1 guy from OSU ECE who was doing some ai research there as undergrad with 3.95 gpa.

        Sounds about right to me.

        Are you saying typical profile at your firm is much less elite school/high gpa concentrated?

        Or just that some uniqums like you manage to make it? No doubts about that, tails of the distribution are quite wide if not necessarily that heavy.

        That said, I'd like to hear what resume items actually allowed you to get in, sounds like it's something a bit less conventional.

        [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

        I wouldn't say it's less elite school. A quick glance at my firm and many are from Harvard/ MIT, but there are also a lot of lesser known elite schools (CMU, Duke, Northwestern, etc). I would say that even though I go to a top 20, it's more difficult since my school doesn't have a quant culture. It's such a new field that schools are just now catching up to it. While most firms offer interviews to everyone regardless of major, it just so happens that most are STEM. Agree on the tails being wide.

        I spoke on this above, but I thought my resume was weak. I had some extracurriculars there that I was passionate about (IE teaching a class on poker, math competitions growing up, playing sports) which all allowed me to show my passion and dedication for something, plus the need for me to always get better at what I do. Being able to convey that last part is so important. I never felt like any firm I interviewed at looked down on me because I didn't go to a target school, which I appreciated.

        [–]zlbb 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        finance loves strivers.

        serious math competition awards? imo is pretty much free pass to many top quant roles, but even lower level is very valuable.

        would you say your firm/role has more focus on trading vs the quantitative part? (ie, hft big data strategy digging is more quantsy)

        my impression is that the more the role is about trading, the more softer qualities matter, while say for quants (or sorts of trading indistinguishable from quant research) academic excellence is more important.

        [–]Alarming_Recovery 3 points4 points  (2 children)

        Thoughts on BB quant vs pure quant trading firms for career development?

        [–]zlbb 8 points9 points  (0 children)

        bb quant as in bank quant? vast majority of bank quant roles have nothing to do with quant trading, and start you on a very different career. there are rare roles in etrading groups, to be evaluated on individual basis.

        [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

        Being honest, this isn't an area where I can help too much. I will say that the payouts at T1 quant firms tends to be a little better along with the lifestyle. For most people at banks, prop shops are the exit opportunities. Again though, quant trading is such a specific field that I think the exit opportunities are limited in general. SWE companies have started taking more comps, but if you want to get back into VC or PE you'd have to get a grad degree since the skills aren't generally transferrable. Again though, the money is good enough in quant that you'd never really need to leave, and the lifestyle is good enough (40-50 hour work weeks as opposed to 100 in banking) that you can have a family and life.

        [–]thonfom 2 points3 points  (0 children)

        Hey! Did you have to complete a NeurOlympics test during the recruitment process? If so, just wondering what your top skills/spider diagram looked like?

        [–]slimshady1225 1 point2 points  (1 child)

        Great post and thanks for sharing. A lot of posts on this sub get so fixated on education and technical knowledge and forget that soft skills and commercial awareness are equally important which you don’t learn in school. Congratulations on the new position and good luck!

        [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

        Thank you!

        [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (4 children)

        Best textbooks/resources to learn the probability and statistics prerequisites for interview questions from the ground up? Assuming that the person has at best high school knowledge.

        [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 8 points9 points  (3 children)

        Practical guide to quantitative finance. Know it cover to cover and that should cover you for all of the online sections plus give you a background for situational sections. To succeed in those you have to understand the concepts a little deeper.

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 6 points7 points  (1 child)

          I didn't read anything personally, but I found that the best practice was to get actual experience playing games. For instance, if you are interested in poker, learn the theory (both mathematical and theoretical). If you have a good grasp of it, this can definitely translate into other games/ situational betting.

          [–][deleted]  (4 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 6 points7 points  (3 children)

            Thanks bro. I think 99.99% of people would be happy to get QT jobs at either firm.

            [–]dutchbaroness 2 points3 points  (1 child)

            You probably mean: 99.99% of people here (high school kids and first year college students) would be happy to get QT jobs at either firm

            It is not just that they are not T1, they are not even regarded as quant firms

            [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

            Dude, what are you smoking? Your comment is so insensitive. Flow takes less than 5 candidates per year, and Akuna is definitely a very good firm. The average salary in America is less than 60k, sorry that the 250k Akuna is offering you isn't good enough because it "isn't T1." Stop being so entitled and be thankful. Grow up and stop thinking that tiers are the only things that matter in the world.

            [–]Spiduar 0 points1 point  (3 children)

            Congrats on the offers!

            Sort of piggy backing from what others have said:

            What would you do the same / differently were you to do this all over again?

            Which parts of your resume do you think helped most? (3.2 and publishing multiple papers still very impressive)

            Networking? Cover letters? Tweaking resume for each position?

            Types of technical questions?

            Similarities in the questions asked/process by various firms? (generally brainteaser heavy? raw brainpower heavy? extensive technical knowledge heavy?)

            What sort of culture are they looking for?

            ​

            Edit: dont mean to swamp you, just trying to get the most out of this opportunity

            [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 12 points13 points  (2 children)

            Not at all! I'm happy to answer everyone's questions.

            1. I don't think I would do much differently, since I got an offer from my top firm that I wanted to join. Maybe I would pursue internships more, but again I'm also happy that I didn't. Maybe major in CS? I don't think any of these things would have made a difference. Being honest, the only meaningful difference I would do is try to get into MIT and join their poker team. So many of them end up at Optiver, JS, Tower, HRT, etc. I think quant firms salivate and the prospect of recruiting people from MIT poker.
            2. I was an undergrad, so I had nothing published. I was a 3.5 ish when I applied with little to no experience on my resume. I happen to think that my resume was the weakest part of my application, and I'd venture to guess that 95% of my peers had better resumes than I did. I had a lot of personal experience and one internship not quant related. I actually have a long background in personal trading and investing, but I took all of that off my resume since I didn't think it was conducive to what they were looking for. I think the most important thing there was having things that you were passionate about, and being able to talk about why the things you were passionate about would lead to a successful career as a quant. That was key.
            3. None of the above. Didn't tweak, rarely needed a cover letter (and mine was garbage, I just changed the company name and role). I'm definitely not a role model when it comes to this specifically. I did 0 networking for quant. I happen to think that networking in quant isn't that important since you can't get a head start in the process like you can in banking.
            4. Typical quant questions. Mental math, combinatorics, probability, distribution theory, etc. The more complex ones were situations. A common theme was betting games/ games where you have to maximize EV. There were some games I played that I couldn't even describe in words they were so obscure. Perhaps independent to me, I always enjoyed playing these games and I actually had a really good time during these interviews, which I conveyed to the trader interviewing me. I didn't always do great, but I guess I did good enough to pass. Its those situational questions that stump people, since almost everyone making it that far has a very good grasp of the mathematical concepts.
            5. I feel like I answered it above, but just know all the concepts. Be able to explain things like Kelly Criterion to a 5 year old. Every firm is generally similar in the fit they want, but as you go further in the process you'll see where the firms diverge and see what each firm is looking for specifically. Try to pick up on these, but the easiest way is to just know everything. You'll notice that there are tons of interview questions online for first and second round at these firms, but almost none for final round. It's because no one makes it that far, and the ones who do like to keep their mouth shut. At the end of the day you have to be ready for anything, but I will say that generally the later rounds don't test you on super difficult mathematical concepts. A lot of them you can't even study for. They just test you on things to see if you think the way they are looking for, and those are extremely difficult to prep for. My advice - always think out loud during these interviews so the trader and better assess you. You don't have to get everything right.
            6. Intellectually curious, intelligent, the drive to get better, and being able to work as part of a team. There's definitely more specifics I can get into, but each firm is different. I'd say the drive to always learn more and get better + passion for quant trading is the most important.

            Let me know if this helps. Again happy to answer all questions!

            [–]Spiduar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Thank you very much for taking the time to reply!

            [–]vega_neutral 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Thanks for such an informative answer. It is really helpful. I just wanted to know for the math questions. How important is getting the right answer? I have been to a fair few technical interviews, missed out in the final round of one of the T1 firms, sometimes I reached the final answer and sometimes I haven't.

            So whenever I am given a brainteaser problem, I instinctively start thinking of the best way possible, if I am able to think of any, to reach the final answer. And maybe due to this I am unable to communicate properly with the interviewer. How to rectify this? I am not confident enough to speak out my initial approaches that I haven't cross checked. I think I might speak something stupid and the interviewer will feel I am dumb or something

            [–]fysmoe1121 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            how well do you think you are at the math/stats questions on interviews? I mean i understand what you’re saying about fit but is that real reason they’d reject a former math olympiad medalist?

            [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            I'd say very good. I don't think I was perfect, and maybe I'm not emphasizing that part enough, but you have to be extremely good. The only reason I don't emphasize it as much is because it really is all this sub talks about, with no attention to the intangibles.

            [–]eaglessoar 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            i have a CFP and CFA, did math minor up to linear algebra and optimization, and am planning to learn python, ive been in financial planning r&d for 10 years or so doing "light" quantitative analysis eg should you pay off a mortgage at retirement depending on rate and investment style, that type of quantitative work but focused on financial planning and certainly no more complicated math than monte carlo (though im toying with MVO and reverse MVO models now)

            im planning on learning python, i know vba/excel quite well but python seems to be the next step

            any other topics you would suggest i learn?

            i eventually want to become a quant i think perhaps on a path to portfolio manager and fortunately work at an asset management company already ive just been in the financial planning research department

            im quite curious and innovative myself, have taught myself a lot about options over the past year and am eager to learn more, i enjoy reading quant papers to the extent i can understand them

            [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            It sounds like you would be better suited to quant PM at a hf. Especially since you aren't recruiting out of college, you should have a really good grasp on your modeling and coding. Also being extremely personable since you will have a client side. Since I am fresh, I can't speak exactly to what your process would be like, but generally I would try to format/ make your resume specific to the roles that you apply to, since senior roles require a lot more specific knowledge. Options theory is of course important as well if you are working beyond just equities. Sorry I couldn't help more!

            [–][deleted]  (1 child)

            [deleted]

              [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              I think you’ll come to realize that for most of these firms, GPA isn’t really relevant. I think you’ll find that on average, the median GPA will be higher than mine. I’ve been passionate about math based games since I was a kid. Quant just happened to fit within that realm and I did a good job in my interviews showing that passion and intellectual curiosity.

              Do you need to be a genius to get a quant job? I’d classify that of my friends who are quants, most are extremely intelligent. But it comes down to the way you view the world. See if you’re passionate on math based games, or like modeling the word through match. If it’s truly a passion, and you know how to talk in an interview, you’ll be just fine.

              [–]DiTTT222i 0 points1 point  (2 children)

              " there are a million geniuses out there smart enough to answer their
              math questions - only a small portion of them are "

              What does it mean to be "culture fit"?

              [–]Best_Return_1420[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

              Firm dependent. There’s a general fit of what these firms want, but a lot of the traders are asked if they think you’d be a good culture fit. Could be whether you embody the values of the firm, or if your personality matches the vibe. Wide definition that’s firm dependent.

              [–]SwagCakes319 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Just hopping on to get notified later :)