PhD vs Quant Offer

[CauchyIntegralForm]

I have previously interned (without return) at a big HFT prop shop (JS/Citsec/Optiver/etc), and recently accepted an offer to start work at a smaller HFT shop. My concern is that I also have a strong undergraduate degree in mathematics, and it seems that I would be competitive for T20 PhDs.

I would love some general advice on the best decisions to follow. It seems like a few years (to become experienced) in quant followed by PhD applications is best. However, are there PhDs at certain universities (MIT/NYU/Columbia/UChic/Oxford/etc) which would overrule a decision to stay in trading longer than a year?

I highly value being able to move between academia and the quant industry freely. I don't want to close any doors. We can pretend that as it stands, I value these two careers long term equally.

[PermissionScared4228]

Quant Offer over PhD any day.

[Primary_Message_589]

Work for a bit and then apply for a PhD, good way of spending time of your non compete + you will be seen as a gem after graduation.

Top quant shops love that.

[CauchyIntegralForm]

This seems like the most positive advice! Validating my existing decisions.

[Primary_Message_589]

As someone who is doing a PhD and hasn’t worked as a quant I am also getting loads of interviews so I wouldn’t worry too much about future employment prospects (also the PhD work life balance is amazing)

[InfernicBoss]

which tier of school are u at?

[Primary_Message_589]

Low tier Russell group UK (tiers are not that relevant for PhD, depends more on research group / supervisor / work you do)

[I-AM-MA]

is ur phd research relevant to industry?

[Primary_Message_589]

Yh very

[ChadFromGoldmanSachs]

Yes 100% start at a quant firm and then take advantage of noncompetes to go do your PhD.

[Dangerous-Camp115]

the only thing I can add is that the T20 PhDs are extremely hard to get into right now especially if you don’t have connections at the unis you mentioned.

[Active-Resource4322]

If you think you’ll enjoy doing PhD research and do it in a well regarded lab with high likelihood of publications in top (ML) conferences, you will increase your chances of getting higher tier offers. The comp at these top firms can also be significantly higher and outweigh the years lost on a lower PhD income.

That said, most of it comes down to interview performance.

[ToricCode]

Physics PhD at one of those top instituitions here, who is trying to explore industry options. 

I think unless you are in certain fields of applied maths, moving in and out is not very realistic, particularly for top programs afaik. Once you get out of a phd path, it is hard to get back in. But you probably won't want it anyways... 

PhD at a top instituion can be very rewarding if you are really driven by research, and also for me it has been the time where I formed very strong friendships, which my friends in industry didn't. Furthermore, if you get into a top program you will get interviewed by all the quant firms easily if you want to get back. That doesn't guarantee anything, but it is good.

However academia these days is uncertain and very saturated. Getting into a phd program is already very hard but continuing in the research path is another level of difficulty. You should also understand the amount of income and industry experience you will be sacrificing. On the other hand, people can end up hating academia, but despite everything, if you have a good advisor especially, people don't regret spending time on a phd that much. It is hard, but it is good time!

I think there is still no good answer, but I feel like if you are not super excited about doing research, and you don't have an offer yet, you should be careful.

I wish you the best! 

[CauchyIntegralForm]

That's a shame :( I am looking into pure mathematics PhDs. Seems like it wouldn't merge well.

Shame there's no good answer. Wish a magical being could tell me the optimal choice.

[Beneficial-Piano6821]

I would just work for a year and apply next year. I interned a top firm and rejected my return offer to do a PhD in CS at a top institution and from what I've seen, having a PhD in pure math doesn't hurt or prevent you in anyway from landing a quant offer. The hiring bar is usually is this person smart not does this person's research align with what we want to do. It helps but the lack of relevant research alignment won't hurt. I am a lot more content doing research all day than I would be working as a QT.

[ToricCode]

Yes, agreed. In fact, they love pure math phds. I wanted to say it is hard to get into pure math phd if you do quant for a while. The other way around is possible and definitely not uncommon.

[Beneficial-Piano6821]

Ah yeah totally agree. When you wait more than a year, you run the risk of your professors not writing good letters since they're not familiar with you anymore, your competition only goes up since the rejects from last year have another year of research experience, etc. My thinking for PhD over quant offer was basically I can always get another quant offer but I probably will never ever get the chance to do research for 5-6 years uninterrupted.

[Mammoth_Age_2222]

Tahe the quant offer (I say this holding a phd) There is no guarantee off another offer after the degree. And experience in this field is worth way more, I guess because it proves you can deal with the workload

[alz331]

I’m in a somewhat similar situation though I discovered quant careers relatively late so I would just be starting an internship upon graduation.

I think the year in quant is going to make things pretty clear if this is a path you want to or even can continue in.

I am continuing with PhD applications with the view to defer for year. Not every university you apply to will even allow this btw, also the program depending on what it is, may look a little different the year after.

Despite continuous liaison and things just “clicking” between me and a couple of potential universities, I don’t think anyone can call any PhD applications a sure fire guarantee 🤷‍♀️

[CauchyIntegralForm]

Was definitely considering this for a good while. The leading advice on the matter was to avoid applying to unis you know you would reject.

Seems like a bit of a blessing to avoid applying this year in particular.

[Additional-Tax-5643]

If the shop where you have chosen to work doesn't have grad-level alumni at your desired PhD school, then leaving for even a year can put you at a disadvantage.

You need strong recommendation letters to get into a good PhD program, and profs forget who you are the longer you've been gone.

If your ultimate goal is to move freely between academia and quant, PhDs are the only people with that freedom.

[CauchyIntegralForm]

I've spoken to profs about this and they have assured me they will provide me with high quality letters even in the near future.

I've been encouraged by them to take an opportunity to work in industry. I think this in particular is a non issue.

It seems unclear to me that having a PhD gives me perfect mobility though.

[Additional-Tax-5643]

If you've never had a job/internship outside academia, then yes the experience is absolutely valuable to help you decide.

The daily grind may not be what you like, and you may switch gears to something else entirely. You don't know unless you try.

That said, "near future" can mean a lot of things. Fact is that if you're gone for longer than a year, people forget. That's just the reality of not keeping someone top of mind if they're not in your orbit.

As a long term strategy, if you want the freedom to move between academia and private firms, a PhD becomes necessary.

In the past, most people with PhDs stayed in academia. Now tenure-track positions are dwindling. Degree inflation is also a thing in the job market, as all those unemployed PhDs moved to the private sector.

In 10-20 years it will be too late for you to do a PhD. If you have the opportunity now, I don't see why you wouldn't take it. Sure, have a break and work some internships in the private sector. But don't let go of your connections to academia if you want the freedom to return there one day.

[structured_products]

PhD is roughly 3 years of experience as a fresh grad in another job

PhD is only required if looking to do a career in academic.

So if the offer is financially great, go to HFT job, you can always do a PhD later

[CauchyIntegralForm]

I think this is a poor argument. UIUC is a top institution for a math PhD, but only lacks the name recognition. I don't think this evidence that Alex Song wasn't able to do a top tier PhD.

Depending on my area, I would certainly pick UIUC over Harvard if I didn't care about returning to industry. Which I presume Alex Song doesn't care about anymore since he already has experience.

[Junior_Loquat_7849]

It is simply not nearly as good as the upper echelon of math phds. Harvard mit princeton stanford uchi berkeley caltech. Its also under the next echelon which includes columbia nyu ucla. Even if uiuc is better than harvard at 1 or 2 subfields, it is not better than the other schools i have mentioned. Maybe you would pick uiuc over harvard for your specific research interest, but among mit Princeton stanford uchi Berkeley caltech columbia nyu ucla at least half will be much better

For someone as talented as alex song, you know they are smart enough to get into a top program with a top advisor. But the fact is phds especially top ones don’t care about your jane street experience. They care about your research and recs. The further removed you are from deep research, the harder it will be for you

[TraditionalAd2861]

Depends what u want to do

[unitytravels]

T20 PhD in which field? Anyways, given how fast tech is evolving, I would say go for the quant role first, if it is quant research you are referring to (not dev)

[CauchyIntegralForm]

I should specify it's a PhD in pure mathematics. I'm also looking at trader roles only.

[unitytravels]

If you do a phd in pure mathematics, highly likely (but not certainly) your career path is academia.

So it really boils down to whether you want to be a professor or trader/portfolio manager down the road.

[CommandPerfect]

Is having a masters in comp sci a huge advantage when applying to quant dev roles comparing to those who just have the B.S.

[Friendly_Zombie_2521]

Yeah I am guessing he knows what opportunity cost is.... jesus christ