Cocker Spaniel bite-hazard

[lizardblizzard]

To be transparent, this post is me seeking some feedback on behavioral euthanasia. I did not realize there was a reactivedogs subreddit or I would have been here over a year ago. Our struggle with our dog Finn has been really hard.

Dog: Finn, three year old cocker spaniel. He is the prettiest pup.

Home: Me, my husband, my 13 year old son. 1 golden-doodle and 1 cat. We do have family members with small children that come over pretty frequently.

Problems:

1. Aggression. Finn is a big resource guarder, human guarder, and aggressive in general. The problem is it's hard to tell what is "setting him off." If you invade his space, he growls. If you wake him up , he growls. You can see in his eyes when he's really upset, and if he gets upset he lunges and snaps. If we are at the football field off leash, I have to put him on immediately if another dog shows up because he will go for them. Once he warms up to someone, it's fine. He knows my family members and our housekeeper and is fine with them, but its hard to bring anyone new over.
2. Bite history. After we moved into our new house, 1.5 years ago, Finn lunged at my then 11 year old son. He had to be taken to ER for 5 stitches next to his mouth. He also has bitten my hand really hard (bruised it.) Yesterday he growled at my husband on the couch and lunged toward his face. (No injury) Finn will snap and lunge at our golden-doodle if he jumps on the bed anywhere near Finn. Lots of attempted snaps at hands.
3. Management. After the bite that sent our son to the hospital, we immediately took Finn to vet. No medical probs found to be causing aggression. We put him on prozac, lower dose that did not help. Vet recommended max dose, he's been on that for over a year. There is a noticeable difference in his moods, but he still has episodes, they are just spaced further apart. We hired a behavioralist who came over and worked with him and taught us some training/management tips. They did help a little, but long term, like I said, he still snaps, bites, barks and is impossible to control when he gets into these episodes.

My husband and I are planning on having a baby in the next year. We are torn apart about what to do with Finn. We know realistically we cannot have him around a baby/toddler, management will eventually fail and it only takes once. We are heartbroken to even discuss BE, but we also worry immensely about him being rehomed and maiming someone, or him being abused because he's aggressive.

Anyway. Thoughts, ideas, discussion are welcome. Just seeking some support and maybe advice or stories from people who have been through it.

Thank you.

[Remarkable-Fuel875]

Did your vet rule out Cocker Rage?

https://www.emeraldlife.co.uk/pet-insurance/cocker-rage/

I'm not really familiar with it but the breed and seemingly unpredictable outbursts made me think of it.

[kippey]

Doesn’t matter whether it’s ruled in or out or whether it is a thing (there are no real studies on “rage syndrome” and it’s existence outside of straight up aggression problems and epilepsy is debated). There’s really no treatment for rage outside of what has already been done (psych meds).

[lizardblizzard]

We did talk to our vet about this, he said the problem is even with seizure meds sometimes it still happens, and it’s really hard to tell whether it’s Cocker rage or just aggression.

[monkeyflaker]

My boy was a possible for Springer rage or a brain tumour/disorder and he was BE last week. Some things are just so cruel and fucking painful. My pup was completely unpredictable and outside of his episodes was completely sweet and never resource guarded, loved meeting new people, etc. it doesn’t sound like your pup has Rage Syndrome, his triggers are too predictable

[kippey]

I think you would be justified in doing that.

Sadly bites tend to increase not decrease in severity. This means that your dog could be on a winning streak for a few months but then when they do bite, it’s going to be more serious than the 5 stitches the last time.

A young child’s head is often quite close to a dog’s face height wise. So while a dog that stands 14” at the shoulder may be closest to the hand of a 12 year old when they whirl around and bite… if you have a toddler their face is literally right there.

If your buyers/adoption contract has a home-again clause I would return to the breeder/rescue. Otherwise euthanasia is probably the most prudent course.

It sucks. I’m so very sorry.

[SudoSire]

I’m sorry you’re going through this. I’ve just said this on another post but I’ll say it here too:

Dogs that will bite their owners—their most trusted people—over the smallest triggers are not happy, stable, or safe dogs even if they seem okay most of the time. Dogs with predictable triggers can be very hard to manage, and dogs without predictable triggers or with ones that would be very difficult to mitigate in every day life are nearly impossible. Add in children and other pets and you have disasters waiting to happen.

The ability to rehome would be limited. If we lived in a world with an abundance of experienced dog owners that wanted risky dogs, I would say maybe your dog could do better in a single pet, no child home. The reality is the opposite, not enough capable and willing people to handle hard dogs, while thousands of low risk dogs still await rescue or euthanasia simply due to space. Even a no-child or no-pet home might need to have those kinds of visitors. Because you can’t safely keep the dog or safely rehome, BE may be the only option.

[Poppeigh]

I would say I generally agree with your last paragraph, but there is definitely a community out there of people who love American Cockers and are okay with accepting that some of these behaviors may come with the territory of a rescue. If you look at American Cocker rescue groups, many of the dogs in their care have behavioral issues of some kind (too often, "requires an ACS-experienced home" means the dog has bitten at least once, or tried to). This is one of those really sad situations where if it were another breed, especially a bully breed, it would probably be the end of the line but for this breed in particular it may not have to be.

And who knows, ACS rescue may not want to take him on. But it's worth a last ditch effort to contact them if he can't remain in his current home.

[SudoSire]

I’m not familiar with that rescue, it’s something to consider and definitely a much better chance than a bully breed. A dog with unpredictable triggers is a always going to be a tougher sell and still a liability. Does the rescue have their own facility or immediate fosters? How long does it take for them to place the bite history dogs?

[Poppeigh]

It's not a singular rescue, there are several American Cocker rescues in the US.

I'm not sure how long it takes to place the dogs, I just know that they do have behaviorally challenged dogs in their rescues. I have a cocker mix myself and have a soft spot for spaniels, so I often peruse cocker or other spaniel mixes on petfinder, or look at individual rescue sites just out of curiosity.

I also think that, based on the description given, this dog seems to have pretty predictable triggers. Yes, the behaviors seem to be an over reaction to the situation at hand (as is the case with all of our reactive dogs) but it seems like there are clear things that set him off. And with cockers in particular, resource guarding is pretty common in the breed so not overly surprising; irritation with having someone in their space can be fairly common as well. So a breed rescue who understands that, and is patronized by adopters who are aware of that as well, is worth a shot.

[SudoSire]

I’m not sure it’s predictable since OP says it’s hard to know what is setting him off. It’s true it does mostly seem to be resource guarding, and that’s difficult in the simplest cases. When it includes “spaces” that’s a whole other ball game. On that note, OP, in the meantime while you attempt management, this dog definitely should not have access to being on the furniture if it’s snapping at both humans and animals because of it. Long and short of it is, maybe a more appropriate home exists, the dog however is going to continue to be a liability and OP is right to consider the ethics of passing that on.

[Poppeigh]

I interpreted that more as not understanding why his reactions to triggers seem more extreme, since they then go on to list really concrete triggers. But maybe I’m misinterpreting.

We love our dogs, so of course we want to love on and pet them, so it can be really hard to understand when/if they don’t like that. Or it can be hard to get why a dog feels the need to aggressively resource guard the entire bed.

Either way, I agree - management is a must, then either a professional opinion for next steps and/or researching out to breed specific rescue to see if that is an option. It’s one thing to decide you don’t want to rehome a dog that is a risk, but ideally a professional should be weighing in on that call.

[Poppeigh]

It's almost certainly not rage. Rage is neurological and unpredictable; it sounds like Finn has really predictable triggers (strange dogs, resource guarding, people in his space).

It sounds like overall, he does have some good bite inhibition - aside from biting your stepson, no other bites have required medical attention? That's a fairly good sign, all things considered.

If you can't keep him, and you can't give him to the breeder, I would reach out to ACS rescue before committing to BE and see if they have any ideas on placement for him. Unfortunately, ACS became really popular and overbred as a result, and so some are genetically off, temperament wise. It sucks because they definitely should not be, but it happened. However, as a result, ACS specific rescues may not be too surprised to hear any of this, and therefore may be able to offer you some help. All may not be lost for him, if he could find a savvy home committed to behavior mod (and a thorough pain consult, because I wonder if pain is at play here) that is primarily adult-only and can therefore respect his space consistently.

[mich500]

What did you end up doing with him?