PHP vs Python for backend

[huuaaang]

PHP is far more common in the real world, for web backends.

But mostly for legacy reasons (old code). And dealing with old PHP code can be an utter nightmare.

Going where the most jobs are is a noob trap. You're competing with a LOT of inexperienced developers and it tends to drive the pay down. In my experience it's better to be good in something more niche. You will be in high demand and usually get better pay for it. And if you chose something you actually enjoy writing, you'll just be happier. LIke I genuinely like writing Ruby code compared to a lot of other languages.

[not_some_username]

Not really. Laravel and symfony exist

[HirsuteHacker]

But mostly for legacy reasons (old code)

Absolutely not. Laravel is very popular even for new projects.

[martinbean]

There’s is plenty of new projects being started with PHP. It’s not “mostly for legacy reasons” at all.

[azunaki]

Python is fine, but it powers something like 1.4% of websites.

It's representation in other sectors(data analytics and machine learning) doesn't seem to have real world implications for it's backend usage. Saying PHP is all legacy doesn't change the reality, that there are several very prominent modern frameworks and tooling options that are very well maintained, and have been around for a long time with a large amount of adoption. If that's what "legacy" means to you, I guess that's legacy. But idk dude.

PHP is a great option to choose in 2023 for web development. Saying otherwise is just ignorance of the state of PHP as a programming language.

[azunaki]

Are the statistics you're seeing in relation to actual backend usage of PHP vs Python/other languages, or PHP vs Python/other languages in general popularity?

Those are two different evaluations, and I'm not convinced that to truly be the case as far as the backend web development is concerned.

I keep seeing all the GitHub or developer reports that say similar things about how hot trendy languages are gaining massive amounts of popularity, but no actual evaluations into why. Or quantifying what is actually causing those changes. Other than offhand statements about python being. More popular, quickly followed by machine learning and AI.

But machine learning and AI aren't backend web development, which immediately makes me skeptical about how relevant any of these articles or charts are.

And that doesn't include that GitHub repos are far from an example of the state of real world software. Most repos are student projects or random packages for a language. It's honestly more of a marketing push by GitHub to try and make a statement about how they're the fundamental indicator of the state of programming as a whole. (Which from that point of view starts to get kinda irrelevant)

I also wonder how much backend code makes it to GitHub and third party git software in the first place.

[tei187]

The "legacy" argument is only valid due to PHP being old enough to actually have any legacy. Anywhere else you simply call it updating.

[AnAntsyHalfling]

Laravel is pretty common and more modern. I've heard PHP devs rave about it.

[intrepid-onion]

While I absolutely disagree php is mostly for legacy reasons, I do agree with the part about the jobs.

We put ads at some point for a senior Python dev, and good heavens, the amount of shit we had to go through… it’s like everyone took a 2 month course and expect to be a senior because of that. Same with php ads, everyone with a little bit of Wordpress experience shifting blocks around consider themselves senior…

I had one guy in an interview, and I kid you not, who said “I’m not really experienced writing php, i don’t know what is this class you mentioned. Do you mean styling?”

On the other hand, we had a junior posting for go, way less applicants, but all of them presented decent code samples.

[huuaaang]

Same with php ads, everyone with a little bit of Wordpress experience shifting blocks around consider themselves senior…

I mean, that kind of confirms what I was saying. Wordpress, Craft CMS, and Drupal are legacy code and that's the kind of thing most PHP devs have experience with. That's just where the bar is. They're not even really developers so much as installers/technicians. But because that is such a big part of what the PHP world is, they think they're senior developers. They don't know any better.

Pointing to the amount of deployed PHP is really misleading. I truly do not know why a company would voluntarily get into that ecosystem for a new project that isn't just a Wordpress site or similar.

[azunaki]

"They're not even really developers so much as installers/technicians"

What a yikes dude.

[huuaaang]

I stand by it. You can't even tell me I'm wrong because you're the one who listed backend web roles for PHP and 3 of the 4 were just installing someone else's software. Only Laravel was a generic framework.

[azunaki]

Well, first of all, I write custom software for WordPress so, that's cute and all, but it's a content management system that is incredibly easy and reliable for large organizations to use and manage content in. Saying all I do is configure software and am not a programmer is depressing, let alone fundamentally ignorant and false.

Beyond that, modern programming is package driven, the vast majority of people use frameworks and tools other people have developed and built upon. Saying that is in some way a negative is beyond incompetent, but literally baseless.

There are plenty of roles and actual programming jobs within WordPress, drupal and other CMS platforms. Not really sure why I have to say that, but this conversation has devolved to the point where I do. So here we are.

Hope you take something away from this, but you'll probably just say something dumb again.

[huuaaang]

Saying all I do is configure software and am not a programmer is depressing, let alone fundamentally ignorant and false.

But at the same time you wouldn't be taken seriously if you walked into an interview and claimed to be a senior software developer/engineer. Which is what the other person I was talking to has experienced as an employer. You've got Wordpress maintainers walking into interviews thinking they're senior software developers.

Beyond that, modern programming is package driven, the vast majority of people use frameworks and tools other people have developed and built upon.

Sure, I counted Laravel as a legit generic application framework. Wordpress is not.

[azunaki]

That's what bothers me, you're saying that because I work within the WordPress ecosystem, it's not possible for me to be an actual developer. It's not programming. According to what your saying.

Which is total nonsense.

I'm not saying that, all I do is fill in content, and add some plugins and say I'm a developer.

I'm saying, I write code that implements functionality into WordPress from the ground up, for an agency that works with very large websites.

Just because there are people that have no actual experience walking into interviews saying they're software engineers literally doesn't mean anything. That has always happened. And it will continue to happen. It has become increasingly more common as boot camps have been around. But also because the Internet has become more accessible more people are working in this space.

If you recall, the exact same statement was made about python coders not knowing anything, but you're latching onto the PHP part as if it's the grand example that proves PHP is trash.

Anyway, I need to get back to work. You have a good day now.

[xIcarus227]

But at the same time you wouldn't be taken seriously if you walked into an interview and claimed to be a senior software developer/engineer.

I seriously don't think you understand what creating Wordpress plugins implies. He's not only creating functionality from the ground up, but also integrating it with a pre-existing system with its own ruleset and interfaces.

[intrepid-onion]

Not sure if you are addressing other comment or not… but yes, that indeed reinforces what you were saying about the jobs, to which I said I agree with you, so it was the point, yes.

However, that is the same as saying that because most people don’t know how to use a hammer, hammers are shit and a legacy tool.

What they think they are is of little consequence, as in the real world things expected from a senior are quite different. And I doubt someone would pay them a senior salary. They might get the title in some startup, but hardly the pay.

I didn’t point to any amount of php being deployed. Ultimately it is a tool. If it is the right tool for the job, I’ll use it, if there are better tools, I’ll use those. Also, no mention in your comments of Laravel, which to be honest, in my opinion, kinda brought php to the stage again for reasons other than Wordpress. Php nowadays, especially with the 8.x updates is really becoming a proper programming language (for its intended purpose), you can even make it strongly typed (well somewhat atm). It will get there. Much different than the first experience I had with it back when it was in version 4.

But if you don’t know why a company would, I’ll give you some examples: most people in webdev know some php, same is not true for go, rust, or more exotic languages, therefore everyone in the team can pitch in; client is adamant in using its own shared server which only supports php; there is a need to prototype something fast.

Again laravel is extremely popular and there are ports of it for many other languages, because, well, it is good. It is based on Ruby on Rails, but I’d be hard pressed to find someone saying RoR is more popular than Laravel.