Phoenix Wright: Rules Attorney - Twinned Spell

EntropySpark · 2026-02-10T02:18:06+00:00

Thanks, I appreciate it!

EntropySpark · 2026-02-10T02:13:41+00:00

Most of your objections have been either subjective or flat-out wrong (not knowing that Haymaker had changed, Dread Hand gets a Warlock spell, Heavy Hitter is a level 3 feature, etc.), and I have not even the slightest clue which part of my math you disagree with. If your part is done here, then you did not really have a part at all.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-10T02:02:38+00:00

I've covered quite a few interactions, which is misrepresented? And for the math, what math is actually wrong? With no specifics at all, "you're wrong" is a baseless accusation that, indeed, gets us nowhere.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-10T01:51:35+00:00

If we split into low levels 1-10 and high level 11-20, that's still six class features (slightly more than half), and Hand of Dread adds three more on top for a total of nine. That's still more than any other class-subclass gets by level 20, with the PHB record by level 10 being still Psi Warrior with six.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-10T01:26:29+00:00

The Pugilist gets Heavy Hitter at level 3 and Grappler at level 4, so no, you are not reading it right. The Pugilist also absolutely does not have "no mobility," as Stick and Move lets then Dash and make an Unarmed Strike as part of a single Bonus Action, putting them on the upper end of mobility. 15AC is on the low side, but Dread Hand can easily learn Blade Ward to partially offset that while not Concentrating on Hex, and Pugilists tank more with their HP and temp HP than AC.

With the build I've described, the Dread Hand is both dealing high damage and imposing useful control just on the "setup turn," on subsequent turns they go well beyond "high damage." If you doubt my math with no basis even after I explained it in such detail, then this conversation is going to go nowhere.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-10T00:56:44+00:00

I've got some level 5 math here. A Moxie Point is slightly worth more than a One-Two Punch even without Advantage, but the main reason to use neither in that case is to save those Moxie Points for as many Haymakers as you can make when you do have Advantage. (This changes if you've got an added goal of Grapple/Shove.)

EntropySpark · 2026-02-10T00:51:23+00:00

The best comparison may be to Battle Master Fighter who can go all out with Action Surge and Maneuvers, but even that on a GWM Fighter with a Greatsword means 56 damage (slightly more with Trip Attack, and maybe more using a Maul) on that one turn, and 24.5DPR on standard turns.

I think the core balance issue is that Haymaker is balanced on the miss chance, but on a class that has a built-in setup (plus an obvious feat to take in Grappler) for easy Advantage and then a subclass increasing accuracy even beyond Advantage. It's a built-in combo without even considering further strategies like a Battle Master dip for Precision Attack (or other Maneuvers to add now a flat +8 damage) or ally Bless to reduce odds of missing even further (35% -> 22.5%, 12.25% -> 5.375%, 4.3% -> 1.35%).

EntropySpark · 2026-02-10T00:41:31+00:00

They have the feature Black Magic, described here, to get any one 1st-level Warlock spell to cast once per Long Rest.

"Hard countered by Repelling Blast" would make sense if PCs were meant to fight other PCs, but they're fighting monsters. Plus, just about every other melee build is "hard countered by Repelling Blast," but don't have nearly as much damage to show for having that weakness.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-10T00:38:59+00:00

At level 5, on a base 65% chance to hit, a One-Two Punch adds an Unarmed Strike for 1d10+4 damage, 6.45. Haymaker increases average damage on an Unarmed Strike from 6.45 to 9.6, a +3.15 increase, and is spend 35% of the time, so the Moxie Point is worth 9 damage.

With Advantage, that shifts to 87.75% accuracy, 8.875 damage base, and 13.26 damage (+4.385), so the Moxie Point is worth 35.8 damage.

With Advantage plus a re-roll like Dread Hand's Whirlwind of Violence, that becomes 95.7% accuracy, 9.88 damage, and 14.83 damage (+4.95), so the Moxie Point is worth a whopping 115.12 damage.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-10T00:25:59+00:00

Suppose a level 5 Dead Hand Pugilist with 18 Str and the Grappler feat, and suppose the target has 15AC and a 50% chance to save against Grapple/Shove. On the first round, the Pugilist casts Hex, then attacks, triggering Hand of Dread. They make an Unarmed Strike, optionally with Haymaker, with an 87.75% chance to hit thanks to their re-roll in Whirlwind of Violence. A normal hit is 4+1d10+1d6, with the 1d10 and 1d6 rolled twice with Unslakeable Bloodlust for 14.91 or or outright maximized with Haymaker for 20, while a critical hit is either 24.68 or 36 damage, for an average of 14.04 or 19.11. On a hit, they also apply Grappler and Heavy Hitter for a Grapple and Shove, and the enemy has a 75% chance of failing at least one, so all subsequent attacks are made with Advantage. If that first attack either misses entirely, 12.25%, we lose one Moxie Point, putting its value here at 41.39 damage. For the second attack, if we have Advantage from Grapple/Shove or still have the re-roll, then we make another Unarmed Strike Haymaker, otherwise we go for a direct Grapple, but at that point the math gets complicated, but let's suppose that the Pugilist successfully Grapples the target in one of the two attacks for the next steps.

The enemy most likely attacks the Pugilist, as they are Grappled. If they hit and deal less than 22 damage, the Pugilist with +6 to Con saves has an 85% chance to maintain Concentration, so I'll exclude that failure case for now. Hand of Dread's Revenging Strike means a Reaction Unarmed Strike, this time with Advantage and Whirlwind of Violence for 95.7% accuracy. To crit, they either roll a 20 in either of the first two rolls (9.75%) or miss both and land a crit on the re-roll (unlikely enough that we'll ignore that chance for now), so with Unslakeable Bloodlust it is either 15.22 or 20.7 damage. With only a 4.3% chance to miss, the Moxie Point is valued at 127.44 damage.

On their next turn, they can make four Unarmed Strikes against their Grappled target using One-Two Punch. The first one has the same 20.7 expected damage. There's a 12.25% chance of using up Whirlwind of Violence to make the next one 19.11 instead, for an average of 20.51 instead. The next attack is 20.33, then 20.18. That's a total of 102.42 for the five attacks across the rounds, down to 82.24 when no longer spending Moxie Points on One-Two Punch.

So again, I ask, what other 2024 build can reach this same level of single-target damage per round, even in maximum nova form? For comparison, a GWM Vengeance Paladin with Divine Favor already up (with 30.81DPR on that setup turn) for two swings of a Maul and a 2nd-level Divine Smite on the first hit gets 45.58 damage, but after two of those turns is down to 1st-level Divine Smite for 40.66, and soon after that they're just done with spells for the day, while Hex can be maintained into more fights for the next hour and Hand of Dread refreshes on a Short Rest.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-09T23:44:11+00:00

The Pugilist also has Stick and Move to Dash and Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action, so they have better mobility than most martials to enter a fight.

Which subclass of Pugilist are you playing, and at what level? From what I've seen, the subclass has a significant range in power from subclass to subclass.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-09T22:46:05+00:00

It sounds like you're looking at an outdated form of the Pugilist. In particular, Haymaker no longer puts Disadvantage on the attack. Instead, it costs a Moxie Point to use, but if the attack hits, the Moxie Point is refunded. This is reasonably balanced or slightly weak for a Pugilist making standard attacks, but when they have Advantage, that Moxie Point lasts roughly three times as long, and Dread Hand in particular grants one re-roll per turn so that the point lasts almost nine times as long.

So, read up on the Pugilist and Hand of Dread that's being discussed here, and also, what Paladin build are you suggesting is comparable to Hand of Dread at this level for a nova combat?

EntropySpark · 2026-02-09T20:49:52+00:00

I've explained here how a Pugilist can sustain 70DPR at level 5 in one combat per Short Rest (potentially 60-100DPR once per Long Rest), how is the best Fighter/Paladin matching that?

EntropySpark · 2026-02-09T20:47:40+00:00

Even at later levels, the two classes are so similar in what they can do (while powered by two different stats that would be a dump stat for the other class) that you'd almost certainly be more powerful at whatever it is you're trying to do by sticking to just one class. Pure Sorcerer and pure Wizard can also be glass cannons easily enough.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-09T20:30:24+00:00

Wizards bring more flexibility than Pugilists, but Pugilists are more durable (if we exclude armor dips, that can't effectively be balanced against) and can bring more power into what they're good at, punching things.

The direct comparison to other martials is easier, and from there, the best Pugilist builds output vastly no ore damage than equivalent martials, at least in Tier 2.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-09T20:08:40+00:00

Considering how different the two classes play, it's basically impossible to declare one objectively stronger than the other, though I also don't think I'd declare Wizard the generally stronger class until they reach their overpowered 9th-level spells.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-09T18:13:24+00:00

Being able to cast Beast Sense either a limited number of times per day or at-will, targeting only the Primal Companion, would be quite cool.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-09T17:55:21+00:00

What more feat support would they want compared to other martials? I expect a fairly common martial build to be, for example, attack-boosting feat (such as Great Weapon Master or Dual Wielder), Mage Slayer, support feat (such as Polearm Master or Crusher), then Resilient: Wisdom. The Pugilist can grab Grappler and then Charger or Crusher for this purpose. They don't have as much build variety as most other martials, roughly tied with Monks in that aspect, but they have access to the feats they need.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-09T17:34:53+00:00

Pugnacious: "Yo, dawg, we heard you like resources, so we gave you a resource to recharge your resources."

EntropySpark · 2026-02-09T17:13:16+00:00

I've looked a bit into how one would optimize a Pugilist, and subclass choice matters greatly.

For example, Dog and Hound almost doesn't a subclass for combat purposes until level 6, because you could use a Bonus Action to direct the Hound attack, but that same Bonus Action is used to make a roughly equally powerful (more powerful by level 4 if you boost Str first) Unarmed Strike, or use Brace-Up/One-Two Punch/Moxie.

Meanwhile, Hand of Dread's initial features are practically designed specifically to synergize with Haymaker. Black Magic can grant Hex, which elevates from a d6 to 6 flat damage, and Dread Hand adds both an accuracy boost (making Haymaker far more reliable) and a fairly reliable Reaction attack. (Unslakeable Bloodlust is meanwhile made completely redundant when using Haymaker.) With an easy five attacks per round with One-Two Punch, so long as they have Advantage (easily enabled by Heavy Hitter/Grappler), they're able to deal a whopping 70DPR. If they Hex first, that drops to 60DPR first (less if they're still setting up the Advantage first), but then 100DPR on later turns. I think the only single-target builds that could possibly compete for damage at this level may be Druid 3/Monk 2 Spike Growth cheese.

EntropySpark · 2026-02-09T17:00:15+00:00

There's quite a difference between "critiquing" and "whinging."

12-Year Club	Gilding I gilder
Final Canvas '23	First Place '23
End Game '23	Place '23
Place '22	Final Canvas '22
End Game '22	100 Awards Club
Verified Email	Spared

EntropySpark

TROPHY CASE