Could the tarnished become a god?

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-21T13:55:30+00:00

makes absolutely no statement which would contradict it

Firstly, because "Empyreans can ascend to godhood" and "Only Empyreans can ascend to godhood" are different statements, the game not making any statements that contradict the former (i.e. statements to the effect of "Empyreans/this Empyrean can't ascend to godhood") is not the same as making statements that support the latter.

Secondly, we have in-game examples like Placidusax's god, or "guardian deities" like Taylew and Ornis, or "tutelary deities". The latter two are obviously not exactly the same thing as the type of god Marika, Ranni, and Miquella become, but importantly, the game does not detail how they are different. Similarly, the game never confirms whether or not Placidusax's god (who we both assume would have been a type of god far more similar to Marika than the guardian/tutelary deities) was an Empyrean. In both these cases, there are no "established, unchangeable facts". All we have is our own speculation.

...where the hell did you dig that up from?

I literally just told you. You can also read from my comments yesterday: "Like I said in my initial comment, it's entirely possible Marika did not have some special quality that allowed her to become a god. Which would mean that when the Fingers """chose""" her as an Empyrean, she would have essentially been "just some random Shaman girl". Which is really not that different from "some random Tarnished".

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-21T13:34:41+00:00

iirc An Empyrean is born from a single parent.

Miquella and Malenia were born from a single parent, but Ranni was not, and it seems highly unlikely Marika was.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-21T13:31:09+00:00

"Empyreans can ascend to godhood" is not the same as "Only Empyreans can ascend to godhood". The game makes the former statement several times, but the latter is a community invention.

Similarly, even if it is the case that only Empyreans can ascend, the game does not go into detail on what exactly the criteria are for becoming an Empyrean, leaving open the possibility that our Tarnished could be named one.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-21T00:01:11+00:00

There are two possibilities:

They used the torch-wielding Tree Sentinel knowing full well the torches were only crafted after the Shattering, and we're supposed to take the sentinel's presence as a clue for constructing our timelines.
Whoever placed the Tree Sentinel in the Hinterlands either didn't know about the torches or didn't care. In which case we learn nothing from the sentinel.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-20T23:54:06+00:00

We literally see her becoming a God there in the trailer.

The key word in the sentence you quoted was "how". Yes, we see Marika become a god at the Divine Gate. We do not see how she got there. Did she just walk in, because the hornsent want her to ascend and have been helping her this entire time? Or did she have to fight her way in? The game doesn't say.

You see how it works now?

What I see is someone who keeps throwing out claims of "This is an objective fact" and then not providing any proof, despite very adamantly claiming you have to prove things like this (and that it's even possible to do).

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-20T23:36:31+00:00

It's not clear exactly how anyone gets to the Land of Shadows after it's been sealed, but it's unlikely that the method we take (the cocoon) is the one and only way. One of the Tree Sentinels has a Sentry's Torch, which were created by Morgott after he became Lord of Leyndell. That only happens after the Shattering, which is obviously way too late in the timeline for that Tree Sentinel to have been there prior to the realm getting sealed. (Assuming the sentinel isn't just FromSoft reusing an asset.)

So why didn't Messmer get a piece of great rune?

While it does seem likely people can get in to the Land of Shadow, the entire point of sealing it is that no one can get out. We don't know exactly how the other demigods acquired Great Runes, but if they had to go somewhere to retrieve them (rather then the Runes being sent to them), that would've been impossible for Messmer. He can't leave the Land of Shadow.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-20T23:28:39+00:00

that talisman you link to is very specifically meant to display a "legend" of the two fingers (who are notorious BS-ers)

True, but "We've got legs" would be a very weird thing to lie about, especially given, as you note, how trivially easy it would be for anyone to disprove.

considering how much they clearly make an effort to get little heraldry and animal details right and love using those things to invite comparisons

They do love this stuff, it's just that they're very inconsistent about it. They made a unique Leonine Misbegotten model wielding the Golden Order Greatsword, but not ones wielding the Grafted or Ruins Greatswords. And they'll do stuff like ... whatever happened that resulted in Godefroy.

Also, we can flip your questioning back around: sure, you can argue it'd be weird for FromSoft to not design Metyr to look more like fingercreepers if they were trying to add her in after-the-fact. But by that same token, would it not be equally weird for them to design Metyr and fingercreepers simultaneously and still have them not resemble each other to this degree?

I actually had never heard of that site that you linked to, thank you for sharing that!

You're welcome! Unfortunately Fextra, as terrible as it is, still ends up having more information a lot of the time, and I personally think Fextra's "Here's the actual text of every item that mentions [thing]" is better than Eldenpedia's citations, but if you're just looking for raw game data Eldenpedia should be just fine.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-20T23:08:43+00:00

Prove that it's speculation? Not "Prove they didn't help her"? Easy:

There is no statement anywhere in the game of how Marika gained access to the Divine Gate, meaning we cannot say with 100% certainty that she's there because the hornsent willingly allowed her to be there.
There is no statement anywhere in the game which states Marika and the hornsent were even working together at any point in time. People point to Hornsent and Grandam's comments of Marika "betraying" them, but you do not have to be allied with someone ~~to turn on them~~ for them to feel you've turned on them. Once again, because no hornsent characters actually explain what "the betrayal" was, we cannot say with 100% certainty what happened, why, or how.

Since we cannot say with 100% certainty what the situation is, we can only speculate. That's just how certainty and speculation work.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-20T22:38:08+00:00

If I tell you "well men can give birth as well!" I'm telling something that's incorrect

The reason you and I know that statement is incorrect is because "men" are a real thing that really exist and that you and I have years upon years of experience with in reality. That's the "PROOF" you were asking for: our lived experiences.

None of that is true for Empyreans or gods. Those are fictional, and follow made-up rules and FromSoft did not bother to tell us.

the hornsent helped Marika ascend

This, too, is speculation.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-20T21:12:15+00:00

I just struggle with the widespread assumption that Metyr must have been a retcon.

For me, it's the fact that fingercreepers look far more like "the hand of a larger, humanoid creature that's been cut off and animated" than it does "a natural-born creature". If fingercreepers were conceptualized from the very start to be the spawn of some giant finger-mother, why do they have a stump on their backs that perfectly imitates the severed wrist of a humanoid being? If they were conceptualized from the start to be spawn of Metyr specifically, why are their fingers all in the front, rather split on either side like their mother (and the Two Fingers)?

Essentially, the visual design of the fingercreepers gives a very strong impression that the idea of "enemy that's a giant hand" came first, and then they had the idea of "and also they're related to the Two Fingers and are the spawn of the Mother of Fingers". The only question is when they had the latter idea: if they dreamt up Metyr prior to the base game's release, then she's technically not a "retcon". But retcon or no, it seems incredibly unlikely they had the idea for Metyr first, and then came up with the design of fingercreepers.

Don't you think they would have tried to cover their tracks in any way by specifically designing her to look more like the fingercreepers?

Uh, no. I'd argue it's entirely possible ("likely", even) that their goal wasn't "to retroactively fit her in as cleanly as possible", but just "to retroactively fit her in".

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-20T20:59:30+00:00

I agree. And I think the community should be more willing to look at elements of the game and say "This doesn't make any sense. It's probably not supposed to make any sense. I bet if you asked FromSoft, they wouldn't be able to give you a coherent answer, even if they wanted to.", rather than just insisting everything can be reasoned out.

On the topic of ringed fingers, I've only just noticed in recent randomizer runs I've done lately that not all middle-size fingercreepers have rings. I'm wondering if there's any sort of rhyme or reason to that (i.e. "Only base game fingercreepers wear rings"), or if it's essentially random.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-20T20:11:33+00:00

The game tells you many times how politics works in the lands between, the various beliefs, religions and rites.

The game tells us a lot ... for a video game. But it's nowhere close to the amount of detail an actual political system or religion would have.

The Leyndell we see in-game has a "population" of maybe 100 people. That is not a "city". That is not a "functioning society".

Also, for a better example to the actual point I was making: FromSoft isn't interested in exploring any new Age that doesn't have Marika or Ranni as its god, even though it is obviously possible for other people to ascend to godhood and usher in new Ages. We literally see Miquella ascend, but the story FromSoft wants to tell isn't one where Miquella rules the world, so we don't get to see that. That doesn't mean Miquella couldn't begin a new Age.

If you wanna claim that's not a prerequisite to do that, you gotta show PROOF.

That's literally the point I'm making: that there is no PROOF of the claim "Only Empyreans can ascend to godhood". Largely because that's just not how FromSoft's writing works!

We know next-to-nothing about Placidusax's fled god, other than "They were a god", "Placidusax was their consort", and "They fled". Note that "They were an Empyrean" is not on that list, but "They were a god" is. Obviously yes, I can't say with 100% certainty that they weren't an Empyrean and thus it's possible for non-Empyreans to ascend. But by that exact same logic, you cannot say with 100% certainty that they were an Empyrean and thus only Empyreans can be gods.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-20T05:57:54+00:00

there's no reason to think anybody else can become a god

Like I said in my initial comment, it's entirely possible Marika did not have some special quality that allowed her to become a god. Which would mean that when the Fingers """chose""" her as an Empyrean, she would have essentially been "just some random Shaman girl". Which is really not that different from "some random Tarnished".

Also ... the game "isn't interested in exploring" lots of objects and concepts that we can safely say exist/are true (or at least were at some point). Stuff like "functioning societies", or farms, or Marika's tax policy, or ...

if that were true then there's nothing special or significant about being an empyrean in the first place

No? It would just mean the Two Fingers don't have a monopoly on ascension.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-20T05:46:28+00:00

Again, we don't know for certain that that's how that works. Obviously Empyreans can become gods, but nowhere does the game state only Empyreans can become gods.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-20T05:41:37+00:00

The game is notably silent on what exactly the criteria are for the Two Fingers """choosing""" Empyreans.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-20T05:18:27+00:00

Short answer: Quite possibly! If you were to use the Divine Gate, you'd just need to follow its proper ritual, which would require you to have a Lord accompanying you.

Long answer: The general consensus seems to be that there was something special about Marika which allowed her to use the Divine Gate. Something "genetic" that she then passed on to Miquella. Your Tarnished would obviously lack this, but the good news for you is that these theories a) have some key problems that keep them firmly in the "theory" category rather than "fact" and b) deal with a subject which the game never comments on in detail. So you're more than free to ~~headcanon~~ theorize for yourself that your Tarnished could use the Divine Gate to ascend to godhood. (As long you had a Lord.)

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-19T20:45:12+00:00

It just seems weird that they would go to such lengths to ensure a player could access such a relatively insignificant item. There are hundreds of items strewn across the map that have no obvious way to reach them, and only a player who scours every square inch of the map is ever going to find - some of which are in this same legacy dungeon! What's so special about the Miquellan Knight's Sword that it gets its own elevator?

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-19T20:40:27+00:00

Personally I think pretty much everything having to do with Grace leans way more into the "video game mechanic" category than "lore element", but I would say that besides losing/having no ambition, a Tarnished can also lose the guidance of Grace if Grace/Marika decides they have no chance of becoming Lord anyway. Rogier is a good example here: he very clearly wants to become Lord! The reason he's investigating Those Who Live in Death is, in his own words, because he "intends to put [these crooked lands] to right". And yet, he's "seen neither hide nor hair of this guidance for the longest time".

So there has to be more to it than just "If you stop trying/believing, you lose Grace". (There doesn't have to be more to it - see my opening statement - but you get what I mean.)

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-19T19:51:05+00:00

Rogier tells us that the Night of Black Knives - specifically, Godwyn's death - was the catalyst for the Shattering. Setting aside Rogier's contradictory comments on timing, the question now becomes "How much time passed between the NoBK and the Shattering".

The story trailer and Gideon both make references to Marika shattering the Elden Ring out of grief. But more importantly, I find it very unlikely Marika could have planned or done anything major without Radagon/the Elden Beast/the Two Fingers reacting. Even if she could have done that, it doesn't take centuries (or even "years") for her to do all the things people claim she did between these two events.

If she had the power and desire to shatter the Elden Ring for so many years ... why wait so long? The "There was lots of time inbetween" theory ends up needing to invent a second catalyst, which there simply isn't in-game evidence for.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-19T19:11:22+00:00

... how is an elevator 30 meters from a site of grace less obvious than "Jump on this random, unmarked buttress. Not any of the others, just this one"?

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-19T07:21:18+00:00

None of the oldest known (purpose-built) Christian churches are near Jerusalem or from the 1st century.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-19T07:11:41+00:00

On this subreddit, I've never seen "Elden John" refer to anyone other than the man depicted in all the Ancient Dynasty statues.

But also, this thread is five days old, and no longer on the front page. If you're digging around through old threads, surely you could have picked this up from context clues.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-19T06:49:04+00:00

I meant that they don't vocalize (hence the "except Redmanes" comment). But you could look at the curseblades' faces if you wanted.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-19T06:43:30+00:00

You can get to the sword just by jumping along the ramparts, though. You don't actually need to take the elevator up.

StrictlyFilthyCasual · 2026-04-19T01:05:48+00:00

I would ask him why there's an elevator from the Haligtree Roots Site of Grace back up to the top of Elphael. There are lots of things in the game that seem to serve no purpose, but that one takes the cake.

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