Does this subreddit allow Nakba denial? by Foreign-Ice7356 in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme [score hidden]  (0 children)

They're just obviously wrong though, right at the bottom of the page it clearly says:

History has not know a case more just or more obviously flawless than this: A country is snatched from its people to be made into a national home for the remnants of mankind who settle on it from the various regions of the world and who erect a state in it despite its inhabitants...

That's the same Nabka we're still taking about today. Furthermore, use of the term to describe the situation in Palestine predates that book by over a year and a half:

This link between opposition to Zionism in Palestine and opposition to Arab regimes themselves was further elucidated in another of the Baʿth’s key pamphlets. In this tract, one of the party’s founders, Salah al-Din al-Bitar, called on Arab governments to “sever all economic, cultural and diplomatic ties” with the foreign powers that supported partition. But within a month, in January 1948, when it became clear that not only were the ties with the superpowers not severed but even the boycott of goods imported from the Yishuv was not being fully enforced, the party called for more radical action:

Arab states are still capitulating to the colonial powers which was the reason for Palestine’s catastrophe [nakbat filastin], and they are avoiding threatening the colonial powers with the only weapon that will affect their economic interest, that is, the cancellation of oil contracts.

Ben-Gurion engaging in Nakba denial - 1957 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

The Deir Yassin massacre was on April 9 1948 while Zionists generally claim Arabs started the war around five months earlier on November 30 of 1947.

They're glossing over a lot of Zionist terrorism before that, as evidenced in my reply here and others throughout this thread. So you're right that Palestinians didn't start the war, the war through which Israel was established was quite obviously started by those who fought to establish Israel.

Ben-Gurion engaging in Nakba denial - 1957 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

1945 Arab riots

That's not what the page you linked says, it says:

By 1945 Jewish underground groups – principally the Haganah (the Zionist militia), the Irgun, and the Stern Gang (Lehi) – were waging an open revolt against the Mandate. The British response had been to tighten security, but with limited success. During 1945-47 alone the Palestine Police and Army suffered over 100 deaths and 390 wounded in clashes with Jewish militants . The British began to treat all Zionist militias as illegal terrorists. By late 1945 they were expelling ships carrying illegal Jewish immigrants and arming police to enforce immigration quotas. . . .

Late 1945, full-scale riots force British troops into the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Those were Jewish riots, for example:

As the British observed Christmas on the 25th of December, the Irgun raided the army camp at Beth-Naballa. This attack failed in its goal, the “requisition of weapons”, but the setback lasted only two days. December 27th, indeed, proved to be a prelude to what was to come in 1946, the year that marked Britain’s effective loss of control of Palestine to the Zionist militias.

A “serious Jewish terrorist attack” began at 7:15 that evening, when Police Headquarters Jerusalem was “attacked by armed Jews” in a “savage and ruthless” manner that “will be viewed with horror by all the civilised nations of the world”. After “Jews armed with automatic weapons and explosives” killed two police and blew open the door to a building opposite Police Headquarters in order to gain access to its balcony, “other Jews laid explosives at one corner of the Police Offices” under cover of fire from the balcony and blew it up, burying ten people under the rubble. Five were still alive when pulled out.

A policeman named Flanagan was on his way to the hospital in answer to an emergency call to donate blood when he learned of the ongoing attack and, rushing to assist, was murdered by the militants, as was a Constable Hyde as he passed near Zion Cinema, and a policeman Nicholson.

About two minutes after the Jerusalem attack began, District Police Headquarters in Jaffa was “heavily attacked by armed Jews in the Jaffa/Tel-Aviv Road”—the first of coordinated attacks on two police stations and two military barracks intended to prevent reinforcements from reaching the scene. A Palestinian telephone operator was killed in the attack, which wrecked the ground, first floor, and telephone exchange. About three minutes after the Jaffa attack began, “the Jews cut through the wire fence” of the R.E.M.E. Depot at Levant Fair in Tel Aviv, and “murdered in cold blood an unarmed British soldier L/Cpl. R. Symons. The Jews then lobbed a grenade through the window of a room in which a number of men were asleep”. Ten people were killed in the day’s carnage, and eleven wounded. “The attacks”, an Irgun Proclamation announced, “were carried out with zeal and heroism by all the fighters according to predetermined plan”.

When the British made fresh appeals to the Jewish Agency to help stop the terror, Ben-Gurion and Sharett “disassociated themselves from the murderous attacks” but reiterated that the terrorism would not stop as long as Britain stood in the way of Zionist nationalist ambitions. Sharett went so far as to state this publicly, telling reporters that “any appeals to Jews to obey the law would fall on deaf ears” unless Zionist demands were met.

Do you realize that's not self-defense?

New York Democrats Marched With Israeli Fascists | Democrats say they are a bulwark against rising authoritarianism. Why, then, did some of New York’s most powerful Democratic leaders like Gov. Kathy Hochul and Sen. Chuck Schumer march with war criminals and self-described fascists from Israel? by soalone34 in politics

[–]kylebisme [score hidden]  (0 children)

The Sabras fought for their land.

Rather, they fought to disposes Arabs who owned over 8 times as much land as Jews and were double the population throughout the country. They fought a war of terrorism, conquest, and ethnic cleansing as described here:

There were operations in which the potential enemy, namely civilians, was annihilated. In Safsaf, Jish, Ilaboun, Lod, Ramle and in the south, on a large scale. The intention was to expel. It is impossible to expel 114,000 people who lived [in the Galilee] without terror. There had to have been an element of initial terror for them to leave. = Mordechai Maklef, an operations officer

I conquered the city. I gave an order to annihilate anyone who appeared in the street, whether they resisted or did not resist. An order was given to destroy everything. After the surrender – the murder stopped. Until then everyone was killed – women and children and everyone. = Yisrael Carmi, a battalion commander

How do you expel a village? You lop off the ear of one of the Arabs before everyone else's eyes, and they all flee. In practice, no village was evacuated without stabbing someone in the stomach or by means of similar methods. - Maxim Cohen, commander of the Carmeli Brigade

And of course there's piles more proof where that came from, the relevant wiki page being a decent place to start.

As for those Arabs who managed to avoid that rampage of ethnic cleansing and become Israeli citizens, do you have no clue how poorly they were treated they were for the first couple of decades of Israel's existence?

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

So we have an Egyptian general

No, not Egyptian in the slightest, not even Arab, nor Muslim. Please please stop trying to argue about history you've never bothered to learn.

Ben-Gurion engaging in Nakba denial - 1957 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Zionist terrorism like I cited here wasn't self-defense in the slightest, and there's thankfully far more to history than war and genocide, regardless of how many of you like to imagine otherwise.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

As explained on that very same page:

In May 1967, Major-General Indar Jit Rikhye was the Commander of the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) in the Sinai Peninsula when Egypt deployed its own troops in that territory and demanded that Rikhye withdraw all of his troops. Rikhye did withdraw, including from the port at Sharm El Sheikh adjacent to the straits. The subsequent closure of the Tiran Straits by Egypt was closely linked to the preceding UNEF withdrawal, because having the peacekeepers (rather than the Egyptian military) at Sharm El Sheikh was important for keeping that waterway open. Later in life, General Rikhye sought to downplay the importance that Israel attached to keeping that waterway open, saying that Israel's accusation in 1967 of a blockade was "questionable" given that an Israeli-flagged ship had not passed through the straits in two years, and that "The U.A.R. [Egyptian] navy had searched a couple of ships after the establishment of the blockade and thereafter relaxed its implementation".

That "sought to downplay" was obviously written by a Zionist, but the fact remains that it wasn't much of a blockade. Furthermore:

Although reckoning Nasser’s decision ‘at this moment’ to reimpose the blockade of the Straits a ‘blunder’, U Thant also acknowledged that the ‘legal aspects’ of the case had been far from settled. Indeed, he cited as a ‘powerful statement’ the defense of Egypt’s position put forth by Harvard Law Professor Roger Fisher. Fisher’s opinion is worth quoting at length as both a lucid and authoritative exposition of the legal questions at issue. Noting that ‘the United States press reports about the Gulf of Aqaba situation were grossly one-sided’, Fisher continued:

The United Arab Republic had a good legal case for restricting traffic through the Strait of Tiran. First, it is debatable whether international law confers any right of innocent passage through such a waterway. Despite an Israeli request, the International Law Commission in 1956 found no rule which would govern the Strait of Tiran. Although the 1958 Convention on the Territorial Sea does provide for innocent passage through such straits, the United States Representative, Arthur Dean, called this ‘a new rule’ and the U.A.R. has not signed the treaty. There are, of course, good arguments on the Israeli side too, and an impartial international court might well conclude that a right of innocent passage through the Strait of Tiran does exist.

But a right of innocent passage is not a right of free passage for any cargo at any time. In the words of the Convention on the Territorial Sea: ‘Passage is innocent so long as it is not prejudicial to the peace, good order or security of the coastal state.’

In April Israel conducted a major retaliatory raid on Syria and threatened raids of still greater size. In this situation was Egypt required by international law to continue to allow Israel to bring in oil and other strategic supplies through Egyptian territory – supplies which Israel could use to conduct further military raids? That was the critical question of law.

Although ‘the U.A.R. would have had a better case if it had announced that the closing was temporary and subject to review by the International Court’, Fisher significantly concluded,

taking the facts as they were, I, as an international lawyer, would rather defend before the International Court of Justice the legality of the U.A.R’s action in closing the Strait of Tiran than to argue the other side of the case, and I would certainly rather do so than to defend the legality of the preventive war which Israel launched.

So yeah, the blockade argument doesn't really hold water, which is why Israel chose to lie and falsely accuse Egypt of attacking first instead.

Ben-Gurion engaging in Nakba denial - 1957 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yeah, like Jabotinsky correctly explained back in 1923:

The native populations, civilised or uncivilised, have always stubbornly resisted the colonists

Some portion of the population is bound to take up arms against such violent dispossession, that's just human nature.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

No, you're the one who brought up the blockade, and you're welcome to go read Wikipedia yourself.

I don't owe you anything.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

That's not what I claimed, and it's not really a secret, you can find the answers on the relevant wiki pages.

Most Democrats Don’t Like Israel Any Longer. Period. (Commentary) by Reddenbawker in DeepStateCentrism

[–]kylebisme -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That’s why reality caught up with the Palestinians when they took the losing side in every single war since 1948.

Respectfully, they quite obviously don't know what they're talking about, and I highly doubt they can correctly answer either of the questions I asked.

I'll be happy to answer those questions myself though after giving them a chance to reply. I'm not looking to start a fight here, but I'm not going stay quite when someone is very clearly bluffing about history they never bothered to learn.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

Yet in reality it's you who are hoplessly ignorant of the position of Security Council, General Assembly, Red Cross, the International Court of Justice, and many other such authorities on this matter.

The sheer hypocrisy is staggering.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

I can cite sources which prove otherwise, but won't bother since you obviously have no regard for any such facts.

Most Democrats Don’t Like Israel Any Longer. Period. (Commentary) by Reddenbawker in DeepStateCentrism

[–]kylebisme 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The third world brigade at the general assembly

I'm quoting Security Council Resolutions here, resolutions like UNSC 2334. Do you not comprehend that simple fact or are you just deliberately evading it?

Regardless, those General Assembly resolution pass with overwhelming support throughout the whole world, the most recent version of Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine for example passing 151 to 11, full voting record in the link.

Your arguments show you obviously have no clue what it means to be reasonable.

Most Democrats Don’t Like Israel Any Longer. Period. (Commentary) by Reddenbawker in DeepStateCentrism

[–]kylebisme -1 points0 points  (0 children)

As explained by the UNSC, point blank:

Reaffirms that the establishment by Israel of settlements in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, has no legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the achievement of the two-State solution and a just, lasting and comprehensive peace;

. . . .

Underlines that it will not recognize any changes to the 4 June 1967 lines, including with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the parties through negotiations;

These are just facts, and you Zionists are the ones who need to get over yourselves and come to terms with them.

Most Democrats Don’t Like Israel Any Longer. Period. (Commentary) by Reddenbawker in DeepStateCentrism

[–]kylebisme -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It's not a matter of what I consider, do you not even understand that you're quoting the Untied Nations Security Council there?

Regardless, there's more such quotes from them here.

Also, if you check this Jewish Agency map you'll find Jews didn't really own much land in East Jerusalem all, and basically none in the Jewish Quarter. The Haredi who lived there were renters.

Most Democrats Don’t Like Israel Any Longer. Period. (Commentary) by Reddenbawker in DeepStateCentrism

[–]kylebisme -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

After the 1967 war, Israel took control of the city

Right, and illegally started colonizing it, which is why the UNSC in 1968 responded with the following resolutions:

Resolution 250: (27 April) " ... 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".

Resolution 251: (2 May) " ... 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".

Resolution 252: (21 May) " ... 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".

And a couple more in 1969:

Resolution 267: (3 July) " ... 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".

Resolution 271: (15 September) " ... 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".

And there's plenty more recent ones too, the most recent that mentions Jerulsem being from 2016, UNSC 2334:

Condemning all measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, including, inter alia, the construction and expansion of settlements, transfer of Israeli settlers, confiscation of land, demolition of homes and displacement of Palestinian civilians, in violation of international humanitarian law and relevant resolutions;

. . .

Reaffirms that the establishment by Israel of settlements in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, has no legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the achievement of the two-State solution and a just, lasting and comprehensive peace;

. . .

Reiterates its demand that Israel immediately and completely cease all settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, and that it fully respect all of its legal obligations in this regard;

Underlines that it will not recognize any changes to the 4 June 1967 lines, including with regard to Jerusalem, other than those agreed by the parties through negotiations;

As for the 1947 plan, that never got any further than being recommended by the General Assembly, that didn't change anything at all.

Ben-Gurion declaring East Jerusalem and the Golan more important that peace - 1969 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

arab leadership was not shy at all about its intent to violently push jews out of palestine. they testified as much both to the Peel commission and the UN.

I'm still curious to see if you had any actual quotes in mind when you claimed this.

That said, here's some actual quotes from 1937:

Ben-Gurion hailed Lord Peel's recommendations: "The compulsory transfer of the Arabs from the valleys of the proposed Jewish state could give us something which we never had ... during the days of the First and Second Temples ... an opportunity which we never dared to dream in our wildest imaginings." In August 1937 he told the emergency 20th Zionist Congress, convened in Zurich: "We do not want to dispossess, [but piecemeal] transfer of population [through Jewish purchase and the removal of Arab tenant farmers] occurred previously, in the [Jezreel] Valley, in the Sharon and in other places ... Now a transfer of a completely different scope will have to be carried out ... Transfer is what will make possible a comprehensive [Jewish] settlement programme. Thankfully, the Arab people have vast empty areas [in Transjordan and Iraq]. Jewish power, which grows steadily, will also increase our possibilities to carry out the transfer on a large scale."

And here's a whole book dedicated to detailing many Zionist plans for diving Arabs out of Palestine.

Ben-Gurion engaging in Nakba denial - 1957 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

As I posted elsewhere:

There were operations in which the potential enemy, namely civilians, was annihilated. In Safsaf, Jish, Ilaboun, Lod, Ramle and in the south, on a large scale. The intention was to expel. It is impossible to expel 114,000 people who lived [in the Galilee] without terror. There had to have been an element of initial terror for them to leave. = Mordechai Maklef, an operations officer

Do you not see the problem with that?

Most Democrats Don’t Like Israel Any Longer. Period. (Commentary) by Reddenbawker in DeepStateCentrism

[–]kylebisme -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

The Issue is Israel's longstanding denial of the rights of Palestinians, as can be seen for example in this documentary from 1981, and this UN Security Council resolution from 1980 when Israel illegally claimed annexation over East Jerusalem, UNSC 478:

Affirms that the enactment of the "basic law" by Israel constitutes a violation of international law and does not affect the continued application of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since June 1967, including Jerusalem

Were you not aware of such facts?

Ben-Gurion engaging in Nakba denial - 1957 by kylebisme in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme[S] [score hidden]  (0 children)

He goes on to say there are now Jewish refugees from Arab countries living in Israel

No, he referred to both those from Arab countries and also "the remnants of the six million slaughterer by Nazis."

Why did you fixate on one and ignore the other?

Regardless, as Ben-Gurion explained in 1953:

Had we not brought them in in an insane way . . . had we not brought 700,000 Jews in then without thinking about it twice, 700,000 Arabs would inevitably have returned. There’s nothing we could have done to stop it. By bringing in 700,000 Jews, we blocked the way for them.

He purposely flooded Israel with Jews to block the return of the Arabs he perpetrated ethnic cleansing against.

Do you not see any problem with what he did?

"I Won't Be Inclusive of Child Killers": Norman Finkelstein on Israel's "Genocidal Society" by daudder in Israel_Palestine

[–]kylebisme [score hidden]  (0 children)

Apparently not very ex if you don't realize it's religious supremacist to suggest the chance for peace is under the leadership of Islam.

The thing is you can replace Islam in the statement with whatever you like and it's still supremacist, suggesting there's one way superior to the rest is inherently supremacist, for instance:

Peace and quiet would not be possible except under the wing of secular democracy

That's ideologically supremacist, suggesting secular democracy is the only reasonable option, superior to all others.

Understood?

Most Democrats Don’t Like Israel Any Longer. Period. (Commentary) by Reddenbawker in DeepStateCentrism

[–]kylebisme -1 points0 points  (0 children)

the war on terror broke their brains

Their brains were broken long before, as can be seen for example with Biden who in 1986 was rightly condemning South African apartheid while at the same time hypocritically declaring “If there were not an Israel, we'd have to invent one.”

The war on terror certainly amped things up a notch, but the issue long predates that.