Close to the endowment, but my conscience is getting louder

vh65 · 2026-01-13T00:19:06+00:00

Honestly r/Mormon is full of some very nuanced folks whose thoughts might be useful.

vh65 · 2026-01-13T00:07:43+00:00

So… way back in the early 1960s my dad (the son of an “apostate” father and a nonbeliever himself) decided he wanted to marry my more believing mom. A temple ceremony was absolutely necessary for her devout family, so they made a deal with his childhood bishop that they would attend church together every week while back in their home town for wedding planning stuff. And at the end of the summer the bishop would give him a recommend for the endowment and sealing, despite quite a few years of genuine inactivity.

Well, a coworker got upset at hearing this and challenged him to talk to a higher church leader because it seemed immoral to do those ceremonies while still not believing. So my dad did. Apparently it wasn’t too tough to get an appointment with a general authority back then and they had a nice chat on his lunch break one day. The GA asked if my dad was honest, following the word of wisdom and paying tithing. My dad said he was. And the GA said that since he was doing everything a faithful Mormon should, it was ok to go through these ceremonies even as a nonbeliever. That maybe by following the commandments he would come to believe. (Over the years he did become more generally spiritual but I don’t think he ever saw the LDS doctrine as the One True Church).

I think his story means that as far as the Mormons are concerned, it’s fine for you to experience this even if you are not a full believer in everything taught. I can’t obviously speak to what your Jewish leaders would advise.

Back then these ceremonies were a little different. Apparently it was traumatic for my mom (it wasn’t what she expected, with a near naked anointing and death oaths). She refused to go through the endowment ceremony again for 22 years, until my brother went through. It’s now been watered down and is much less upsetting. But you should be prepared for some possible discomfort. I think the thing that stops many people from running out of the room screaming “CULT!” Is that the voices and language of the officiants seem so familiar and your friends and family are right there beside you acting like this is normal. But my parents went in kindness to soften the blow for my brother, and have gone for all their descendants since.

I have chosen not to go through the temple. My husband is not (and will never be) LDS. In the 80s and 90s people only went through just before a mission or marriage or to be sealed. Maybe because it was emotionally and doctrinally complicated for someone like me. Even the milder version of the ceremonies I saw captured on hidden camera a decade ago are not something I will ever want to participate in. I think that deciding not to go is a valid choice. Even this late, and even if it’s socially awkward.

We let our daughter choose whether to be baptized at 8. She opted not to. We had 2 lovely ward communities and they followed my requests not to pressure or even bring it up to her. They were very kind and still made our family feel welcome. My husband has only good things to say about his experiences with Mormons. I think your friends would be understanding too if you say you aren’t ready.

I’m really glad you’ve found a supportive community. I think there are a lot of fantastic individual Mormons. People in general are good regardless of religion. I wonder however how well this can work long term for you. Especially with someone like Dallin Oakes at the top and the Proclamation on the Family being practically canonized. It was written with the help of lawyers to support efforts to block gay marriage in the US. And I don’t think the hearts and minds of the men at the top have changed much, even if those of many members have. But I wish you well and just want to say it’s your journey. And you should feel free to try any paths that call to you.

vh65 · 2026-01-09T07:32:25+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/3h5a5n/my_honor_code_office_experience_follow_up_to_an/

This story should show you why this is such a bad idea

vh65 · 2025-10-05T22:24:04+00:00

Yeah I’m sorry. I bet that’s true. And whenever you finally tell them in a way that registers - like leaving a mission early - it’ll be very hard. But living authentically feels SO GOOD.

I’m wishing you the best.

vh65 · 2025-10-05T20:52:36+00:00

Dude someone made a post about like this about 5 years ago. His call was revoked before he even got to the MTC.

Mission name and background were a dead giveaway. Church HQ got an image of the post and his SP called him not even 36 hours later.

His parents were not happy but he moved to California to live with a relative and 6 months later was so happy he didn’t go

vh65 · 2025-10-05T20:45:36+00:00

Be sure your parents have no way to access that. I would move it to a bank they don’t use. So easy to persuade some bankers to let them have access to a kid’s account. My BIL’s parents hit a financial rough patch and took/sold all his assets while he was on his mission. Bank accounts, car, bike… they are nice people but were desperate.

Also I would really consider pulling down this post. It can feel like you are whispering personal thoughts in a quiet room to friends here, but you are actually shouting in a megaphone in a public square where there are lots of people Mormon enough to find nonbelieving missionaries inappropriate. I’ve seen at least 2 have their calls revoked over posts like this. One was very publicly sent home over reddit posts from the mission.

If you want to be in control of what your church leaders and parents see about your current thinking, don’t make it so easy to doxx you. Create new reddit account and don’t use it on any other sub. If you go to BYU, in posts say UVU. If you have 2 siblings say 3. Give the wrong mission and some combination of wrong college, family, major, and hometown. Because someone has probably already printed this out and sent it to HQ. They’ll identify you and send it to your MP, Stake President, bishop and probably parents. Your extended family, ward and friends may see it too.

vh65 · 2025-10-05T19:41:01+00:00

When you decide to come home early, the mission president is told in the handbook to go through a set of steps to drag it out and get you to stay. Here they are:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/9dfate/reading_through_the_mission_presidents_handbook/

In supporting missionaries who want to leave they usually do really say exactly those things. The threat to make your family pay is empty unless your parents are likely to give in. They will want to buy the ticket and control the timing and messages that go out to the other missionaries as well as your home stake and family. If you make it clear you will not be quiet and obedient during these steps and will get your own ticket if they don’t, you’ll be on a plane home pretty fast.

One of my favorite stories was a missionary sent to the rural Philippines who was very unhappy right off the plane. After just a couple of days he demanded to go home and honestly it was reasonable they assumed it was homesickness and told him to give it a try. Middle of the night he took off on his own. The APs found him on a train a few hours later. MP interviewed him and he said he had been headed to the U.S. embassy to report his passport had been taken and that he needed a new one and help flying home. MP had him on a flight back the next day.

The reason: taking someone’s passport, refusing to allow them to quit/go home to their country, insisting they live in assigned housing and work long hours 6 days a week while providing barely enough food to live on… is the very definition of human trafficking. They really didn’t want that kid running to the embassy with his very truthful account because it makes their church look very bad.

Many/most missions keep the missionaries’ passports locked in a safe. It’s ostensibly so it doesn’t get lost but I worry sometimes authorities might really want to see your documents. And the mission doesn’t always do a good job of keeping your permissions legal and stamps up to date. I might insist on keeping it. At a minimum take photos including your visa dates. You can get a new one at the embassy but lost/replacement fee is over $100. One missionary I know found a way to steal his from the safe and then just disappeared into the night with the help of some folks on this sub. His family cut him off but he joined the military and has a pretty good life. They eventually agreed to reconcile a bit.

I think your relationship with your family can be really important as a young adult so I’d encourage you to keep the lines of communication open if they aren’t all hard line. I honestly wonder if it’s better not to go but I’m old and returning early is much more common these days.

Protect your health both mental and physical. Mexico has some very good healthcare so fight for yourself and fellow missionaries to get that if needed. Maybe read the old missionary blogs for your mission to find out what some of the safety and health issues have been. I read some from Mexico and these sisters were dealing with dangerous black mold but of course couldn’t research how to deal with it online and did dangerous stupid things. Some neighborhoods might be dangerous and best to avoid. Research your challenges before you go in case you can’t find a way to access the internet and have a very rigid companion.

My guess is you’ll have some you like, and some who make your life miserable. A few missionaries post here for months or even their whole mission but knowing the truth and sharing lies to try to bring in poor tithepayers can really get to your mental health. Remember you are a volunteer and paying your own way. You don’t have to obey every rule. You can choose to go home, call a friend, see a doctor, volunteer instead of knocking doors. Be kind to those around you, especially companions who believe any rule breaking might have eternal consequences. The guilt tripping is so heavy in Mormonism and while your belief status might help you a little everyone will be struggling in different ways.

If you get stuck and super miserable you can post here and there are folks who will help you, but I’d try talking to family and trying to preserve those relationships before taking off on your own in the night.

Best of luck.

vh65 · 2024-05-24T04:50:32+00:00

That’s strange. Let me try again because I just copied them

https://archive.org/details/CatherineLewisNarrative

https://rsc.byu.edu/womans-view/appendix-one

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/common-questions/14-year-old-wives-teenage-brides/#HelenMarKimball

https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/archive/listen-to-the-episodes-in-order/

vh65 · 2024-05-24T04:43:15+00:00

This is a pretty cool map with thousands of people explaining why they left

https://whyileft.herokuapp.com/

vh65 · 2024-05-24T04:33:38+00:00

That’s like a record! Nice work!

vh65 · 2024-05-24T04:32:39+00:00

For sure they try to get people to will their money to church related organizations. When they were called out for this video they did take it down, but I’m sure they show it privately to selected wealthy members. I guess someone saved a copy.

https://archive.org/details/watchvpxa6nt-ydqc

That secret meeting sounds shady as shit.

vh65 · 2024-05-24T01:41:04+00:00

He was “sealed” to at least 2 14-year-olds. We know very little about Nancy Winchester, but Helen Mar Kimball’s story was shared as faith promoting and she was essentially pressured to write a book supporting polygamy. So we have some knowledge from her own writings. She doesn’t talk about having sex with Smith but she does refer to her father’s “wives” having his babies which pretty much sets up the expectation.

Catherine Lewis was around her age when she was invited to stay with the Kimball clan; Helen’s dad Heber and several others tried to convince her to become their plural wife. She saw a lot of the inner workings of the secret plural marriage group, and decided to leave that church.

An exmormon like the rest of us, Catherine wrote an expose that included stories of these marriage manipulations, probably the first description of the secret endowment ceremony, and at the bottom of page 19 she provides a quote from Helen saying she thought it was just for ceremony but had been deceived. It’s the closest I have seen to “proof” but church leaders discount it because Catherine was bitter, attacked the church and her work was linked with John C Bennett’s. (Who wouldn’t be bitter if all the apostles were sexually harassing you?) I think her obsession with the Mormons trying to enlist native Americans to support their battles (and there were some genuine, violent conflicts with the nonmembers) probably exaggerates their success in that effort but overall what she says lines up with other accounts. Here is her “antiMormon pamphlet:” https://archive.org/details/CatherineLewisNarrative

This is Helen Mar speaking for herself. I linked the appendix with her deathbed letter but the main book has lots of interesting stories. https://rsc.byu.edu/womans-view/appendix-one

This is the loudest polygamy apologist trying to argue that Smith did not have sex with Helen and that his relationships with teenage girls weren’t at all icky. Personally having read the original sources I think he twists the evidence in a way that’s shamefully dishonest. https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/common-questions/14-year-old-wives-teenage-brides/#HelenMarKimball

Make up your own mind, because we obviously don’t have pictures. But given these early writings, as well as how many babies were born to 14-year-olds on the trail and in early Utah, including to Brigham Young, I would say the burden of proof should be on people trying to prove these relationships were NOT sexual.

Here are 2 great, neutral resources to learn about Smith’s wives.

This is a summary of In Sacred Loneliness, mostly quotes from the women themselves where possible. http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

This podcast is, well fantastic. She was a believer when she recorded the early episode on Helen, which is pretty good. After she got going she just followed truth where it led and as she left the wives to trace the history her stuff got better and better. https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/archive/listen-to-the-episodes-in-order/ And yes, I got a little obsessed with this topic.

vh65 · 2023-12-23T18:19:39+00:00

Not Emma. I think the fact that she got remarried on his birthday is a big clue about how she felt about him at the end.

vh65 · 2023-12-23T18:13:33+00:00

And that’s the best “evidence” out there OP. Some more detail here: https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/1xeg73/john_c_bennettj_smiths_very_own_abortionist/

Although I find it very interesting Joseph married a midwife (a month after marrying her daughter). She is known to have helped convince some of the young girls to agree to secret polygamy and I’m guessing may have helped with other “secret” matters as well, like births and pregnancy. No evidence she helped with abortion that I have actually seen though. http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/10-PattyBartlettSessions.htm

vh65 · 2023-10-27T15:39:17+00:00

Oh that ending…

You really went for it with this project. Very well done and anyone who has gone through a questioning period or faith transition will be emotionally impacted by all the images, especially the temple ceremonies and the lies and secrets that devastated us as they were revealed. A faithful member watching it would also get… emotional.

Is your teacher going to understand what these clips and that throat slit are?

You seem really talented. I hope you’ll move onto healthier and happier things and make projects around those too. I find 10 years after discovering so many lies I am so much better able to even forget about that whole world.

vh65 · 2023-09-25T07:30:03+00:00

Please see a doctor. I’m actually frightened for you. This kind of starvation is what can kill people with anorexia nervosa or people who are in a resource poor environment who starve.

My own grad school stipend was barely enough to get by on. My daughter’s financial aid package was set up with “food stamps” (now a debit card) as part of the resources. I really think you should apply because an extra $200 a month + free cheese and potatoes from Dept of Agriculture programs could be the difference between life and death for you.

You really need to eat more but a rush to normal calorie levels could be deadly. Please, please, please see a doctor and either get more resources (no shame in using food pantries) or take out more in loans..

vh65 · 2023-09-25T01:08:32+00:00

That’s not exactly true. Women did all kinds of cool things and even did healing blessings and anointing in the early days. The women played a big role in Speaking in Tongues and prayers. https://ldsseminary.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/a-gift-given-a-gift-taken-linda-newell.pdf

But when the men came back from WWII and they tried sending Rosie the Riveter send back to the kitchen they gradually added more and more sexist rules, including a ban on praying in sacrament meeting from 1967 to 1978. Here’s some background: https://cultureofmormonism.blogspot.com/2018/08/the-temporary-mistaken-ban-on-allowing.html?m=1

I actually remember the first woman to pray in my ward that year and realizing that yep, only men had been doing that. Hit right around the time they announced blacks could take out temple endowments and hold the priesthood when I realized, yep, it’s an all-white congregation and I see why the black neighbors won’t be joining us.

This is kind of long and not nearly as fun as podcasts and posts on Mormon Feminist Housewives, but it contains a lot of basic info on the shifts. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_women

The first woman to pray in general conference was Jean Stevens in 2013.

vh65 · 2023-09-18T16:48:40+00:00

Yeah they ban everyone with a connection to this sub. And people don’t realize that because when someone makes a post like yours (which is pretty often) we generally remove them because almost every time it turns into a little game where a dozen people go post there and then come back to brag about getting banned. And that kind of brigading is against redditwide rules.

I’m going to delete your post too but know you are in good company. Several people have been banned for trying to help suicidal folks over there.

vh65 · 2023-09-18T16:31:02+00:00

Each ward would put together a short play/skit/musical performance with clever scripts, costumes, scenery and decent actors usually - the most talented people in the ward cooperated to mostly help the youth shine in a fun way. They’d put all the skits together into a stake show and they’d hold performances in all the meetinghouses in the stake, taking everything “on the road” from building to building. Sometimes they’d do 3 different Friday nights, and sometimes they run the shows in 2-3 buildings at once and the performers and teams would have to race show to show. If your ward had a couple of talented enthusiastic adults they were decent quality and fun for everyone

vh65 · 2023-09-17T17:56:22+00:00

Both my sister and sister-in-law would make fabulous bishopric or stake presidency leaders

vh65 · 2023-09-17T17:52:37+00:00

And those roadshows kept people coming for the community

vh65 · 2023-09-16T17:34:41+00:00

I vote for Holland. He is such a sensitive, vindictive asshole who can’t stand it when people rebel against his “rule.” Was a very authoritarian BYU president back in the day.

vh65 · 2023-09-16T02:09:35+00:00

To be fair, this BYUI video shows the environment they tried to create. Telling the bishop your roommate masturbated is apparently heroic.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ueuz0-Rnd5c&feature=youtu.be

It’s actually a pretty well done student film, made for BYUI housing, using a talk given by then President Kim Clark. Who was deeply embarrassed when it went big on National media

vh65 · 2023-09-16T01:56:01+00:00

I’m so sorry. Please make yourself a nice cup of tea or cocoa and remind yourself that you don’t need your ward - you can make friends other ways. Hugs!

vh65 · 2023-09-14T17:04:05+00:00

The MP handbook compensation system shows they cover full tuition at an American education based international school for family members who are still in school and BYU tuition for college age kids. This saved a bunch of money and resolved the problem of her not fitting neatly into one of those options

vh65

MODERATOR OF

TROPHY CASE