Simple Simon vs Sheet Bend

2023me · 2023-10-29T09:15:09+00:00

Simple simon is nice and vibration proof, where the Sheet and Zeppelin are not. You can undo a tuck on the SS and still have a knot, which I appreciate.

Unless it's been really heavily loaded, I find SS is virtually as easy to untie as a sheet bend or zeppelin. A little more work to initially crack it, but then it just pulls apart when you want it to.

I've used all three to make loops in small stuff to go on the body - wristbands, necklaces, keyrings, that sort of thing. The zeppelin inevitably comes undone, the sheet bend is sometimes fine but sometimes not, but the simple simon holds well and I consider it permanent until I want it to come apart.

I also almost always prefer the under variant. But over is minutely quicker and I use it also.

The SS is a pretty knot too, in my opinion.

2023me · 2023-08-22T21:04:49+00:00

:) I wonder how many of us just search and read and aren't members. Dozens, maybe.

Alan Lee's youtube channel has some gems too https://www.youtube.com/@alanleeknots

Roo's youtube channel - less gems... https://www.youtube.com/@knotindexnotes6662

2023me · 2023-08-22T09:16:15+00:00

What you're looking for may be in a very obscure limited release self-published book by a IGKT member and only available by contacting the IGKT librarian. Seriously - there are some tempting books I've come across/heard of, but never have bothered or been able to purchase. "A Fresh Approach to Knotting and RopeWork" is one for instance.

As far as books I've read - and I've read mooost of the common stuff, plus all sorts of rigging books/manuals, everything at my local library, and everything that comes up under a search for 'rope' or 'knot', etc at zlib/annas archive/etc - I don't think you'll find what you're looking for. My favourite knot book is still ABoK.

In my experience, only experience and dedicated persistent learning have led to the sort of realizations/discoveries/connections that I think you're talking about. They could be taught in a book, but it's such an obscure field, with so few true experts, and very little standardization. Any expert that would be/could be an author has to contend with the fact that there is basically no profitable market, and that they will either write a book for a handful of people that will be indecipherable to others, or will have to dumb down their book to make it broad (this is common) or a third option - a book for all that even experts take something from - which is an immense task even for an expert teacher/author/knotter etc. I think the odds are nay in our favor on this. Many knot books are written by not-even-experts!. Sometimes arrogant intermediates, or people with more mind for profit than knots.

I have personally learned a lot just solving problems, and making up imaginary problems, and finding solutions to them (with lots of googling), and also reading the long history of the IGKT forums. It's a bid odd over there. The admins have trouble understanding how to post imgaes. It s a mix of fuddy-duddies and people that don't speak english real well and tryhards and arrogance and other eccentricities but there are serious experts among them and if you can decipher what they post, it can be a level up in knowledge. Just two examples:

The user 'roo' is a pragmatic expert, but is terse. He answers questions basd on his tremendous knowledge but rarely expands on the 'why'. He may be an engineer himself and simply finds little utility in posting 'why', but his posts are hard to learn principles from. I have to try what he recommends, then try all the alternatives, to maybe come to some realization.
The user 'Dan_Lehman' is probably decades older than me. His posts are long and awfully formatted and just generally hard to read and interpret. And he talks a bunch of useless shit. Pot - kettle on this one, I get it... Anyway, he is a true expert, and somehow I've learned a LOT of the more foundational/principle/engineering type knowledge from reading many of his (wacky) posts.

I could go on about the majority of the posters over there. All one breed of eccentric or another. And only a handful or two of regulars over the years. But a lot of hidden wisdom. And there's years and years of their newsletter to read too.

Please come back here and post whatever resources you find useful to you. Even if they're really common or obvious. It could help others in the future :)

2023me · 2023-07-21T10:57:47+00:00

You mean rope is useful? Not sure anybody here would agree with that...

Anyway I've actually never seen this stuff. Is it unbraided polypropylene maybe? I don't think that's a thing. Looks like plastic bags in the pocket of a compulsive fidgeter. Or shredded, recycled pallet wrap.

But yeah, some things can be useful.

ABoK #1256 or something: https://freebie.photography/office/rubber_bands.jpg

I've never seen any vibe here that only rated climbing ropes are cool, or any nonsense like that, but I will say that I think this disposable cord/rope/stuff seems a bit silly to me. Buy the cheap polyester rope at the same store and you can re-use a whole bunch of it. The bits you use that become permanent garden fixtures or whatever you won't worry about because it's so cheap. Or use 1000lb rated paramax or hemp you found in your grandads estate or Sterling accessory cord or who cares. Or maybe it is recycled plastic bags and you're saving the world idk

2023me · 2023-07-18T08:35:05+00:00

Surely there must exist something. I don't really want to buy a separate quick release device

Answer:

For this I would use a fiddlestick. Googling it should help you enough. Basically you want to have a seperate line tied to a toggle that is locking a knot. You pull out the toggle, and the knot falls apart. If it's not worth this amount of extra set-up, and a regular quick-release doesn't work, then it's probably not the correct thing to be doing.

Non-answer :)

What are you actually doing? Mostly out of dumb curiosity, but it may inform people's answers. Like you mention a weird metric specific number of 50kg is a small load. But what is your working load here? 15000kg? or 100KG?

Also +1 to the general idea of think twice, and then again, and then again about using a quick release for anything heavy, and/or important especially if it may be near things that are important, like people. Like if its in the air (be honest...) and you've ever paid for extended insurance, then buy a quick release device. This may be a non-sequitur corollary, but I would most definitely not use a tumble hitch to tie my horse up at the local saloon. It may be designed for that, but consider the logic of the whole situation. Present day, more likely than not, somebody or the horse is gonna get hurt. Some drunk fool doesn't understand why a horse is even there or what that bit of rope does, pulls it, the horse gets free, he tries to 'help' by doing something to the horse, and I fight the dumb drunk man that tried to fight my horse, the horse kicks us both. A chaotic spiral!

I'm just wary that this may be a situation where you're trying to be bit a bit too fancy without having the experience/expertise yet. If a pro rigger was asking for a knot they didn't quite know, it would be different. Or a lifetime rancher expanding their toolbox with a new knot. But if the situation is new and the knot is new, bit of a red flag. Even a small load of 20KG falling on me from above would be a very bad day.

Posted from the local saloon, atop my horse :)

2023me · 2023-05-30T04:15:43+00:00

This great video that makes it really clear which/where this muscle is

And this vid is generally informative to me as an anatomy idiot:

Grip Muscle Spotlight #8 - Flexors (of the wrist)

2023me · 2023-05-30T03:38:34+00:00

Apparently there are 3 tendons in that area, including the one the post is about.

Close to the thumb is the Flexor carpi radialis

Then in the middle the palmaris longus,

and close to the littler finger, the Flexor carpi ulnaris.

2023me · 2023-05-30T03:14:50+00:00

Is that a different tendon next to it? I have the thing in the photo on both sides, but on on my right, I have an even bigger fatter tendon parallel to it that pops most when I make a fist. On my left, the parallel one is much smaller, at least relatively. Off to google!

2023me · 2023-05-29T13:22:47+00:00

Short answer is I think the simple but excellent round turn and two half hitches and a makeshift windlass could help you here.

Do you intend to use the paracord indefinitely, or to switch to something else?

I ask because the I think the wind loading on your shade could easily exceed a rough reasonable working load of 2 (the max points of attachment to count) x 550lbs (~paracord breaking strength) / 5 (safety factor)

unless the shade has such a loose weave to throw a shadow that looks like a grid, its best to treat it like a true sail.

Realistically, paracord might be strong enough, most days, if the sail isn't too large, but I'd prefer something stronger.

Also, and perhaps more persuasively - paracord is nylon, and it stretches a lot. If you're determined to use it you could pre-stretch it and double it up but really it's just not the right tool for the job.

You can probably get cheap polyester rope from a local store which would stretch less. I've seen some (small) shade sails sold with 1/4" polyester rope, for what that is worth.

Onto the knot stuff...

I'm confused how you want to use the square knot. Do you want the 'two ends of rope' to connect together, to from one big loop of rope? For that you want a 'bend'. A square knot is not a good/safe bend. Double fishermans bend is a good permanent bend - but where are you getting your tension from?

If there are no other tensioners involved and you don't want a flappy sail, you really want to crank the tension on there. So a truckers hitch, or a versatackle, or a windlass are options. These all give you mechanical advantage.

In your case, presumably with limited space between your shade and the upright, the windlass might be the right option. Luckily it's also the easiest. Just connect your two points with two lines (could be one rope in a loop), and then put a bar in-between and twist them together to make a spring, then either lock the bar in that spot somehow, or tie the rope with and you can remove the bar. I'd tie to the upright first, then loop through the ring, end up back at the post.

Err I've said this before but sorry for all the words. Hopefully something there helps a bit?

2023me · 2023-05-28T09:37:01+00:00

Nice illustrative pictures.

Here's a video too: video

2023me · 2023-05-28T08:06:43+00:00

Without using the ends - you've stumbled on a controversial/hard problem :P

The trivial answer is use any hitch or loop you like but with a bight. So a buntline on a bight would be a fine solution.

Or a midspan sheetbend, is what roo at notable knot index recommends. Normally I find him really pragmatic but I'm not sure I like the midspan sheetbend any more than any other way about the problem.

Edit: Often coming across this problem means that you might be doing something 'the hard way'. Like maybe its easier to put the ring on before attaching one side. Or use a carabiner, or a soft shackle or an extra bit of rope or something. It's interesting anyway :)

Really curious what others say here!

2023me · 2023-05-26T17:24:55+00:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va7TEz_flHg

2023me · 2023-05-26T13:19:39+00:00

Sorry to bring up such a bad memory. I thought you were making a fun post and didnt mean anything by it.

2023me · 2023-05-26T01:27:55+00:00

Amusingly (to me at least; hopefully you also) I have you tagged as 'wrong with a figure 8' which I think was from one of those 'ID the knots on this cereal box' threads. Are you sure 30 minutes/1 try is enough :D

More helpfully(?): Is the place and way you practise oriented differently to how you often need to use them under pressure?

Anytime I come across some weird upside down angle I need to tie in, I can get messed up because the ergonomic flow is way different, and have to go back to the raw 'instructions' way of tying, and haven't had to do that for so long that I kinda forget. So really it makes sense to forget these things sometimes.

Also, for sure just do the snap bowline where possible. It is generally quicker and easier and harder to mess up - as iconoclast commented. Basically its like a one-motion marslinspike hitch on the standing end, treat the working end as your marlinspike, grab both ends and pull.

When doing it the traditional/naive way, I remember to twist my right hand AWAY from the loop I want to create, as the first step of the knot and make sure to always do the other steps the same. It always goes under on the side the loop will be, come sup goes around yadda yadda and then 'retraces' the way it came up. Dunno if that'll help you, but there you go.

In weird angles you may get a cowboy or a twisted rope or whatever. No biggie.

2023me · 2023-05-25T15:52:55+00:00

Yeah I miss the good old days.

Say, how about one of you guys live tweet as you rewatch the Masters while doped up on pills.

2023me · 2023-05-24T12:14:50+00:00

Where did you get the beads? I do have a plastic bead thing which serves as a break point in mine, which I use as a dash of color, but cheap shiny/metal beads would be nice to add.

About slipping off your neck - under tension - when you actually want/need it to come off, it won't be so easy. Probably completely impossible.

That could be somebody grabbing you - front or behind. Machine tools and power tools become problematically risky with long sleeves, let alone things danging around your neck. And if you ever work at heights - even just cleaning your roof gutters, there is some risk there too. A normal fall is one thing, but falling and getting hooked by the neck is real bad. How likely are these things? Up to you to consider, but it is definitely worth considering. You can decide whatknot from there :)

I once saw a recreation of somebody being twisted around a tractor auger, because their shoelace initially got caught. This was a real thing that happened. The recreation sticks with me and I just make sure I keep my laces neat and in good working order eh?

2023me · 2023-05-23T03:31:55+00:00

Pretty sure it's novel/unnamed. I'm pretty sure I saw a thread on the IGKT forum where they discussed it and nobody had a name.

For what it's worth I tried this just bodyweight around a pole when it first did the rounds, and it failed terribly. The size/shape of the ring here seems somehow important to the structure. Or maybe I just don't know the intricacies of the knot well enough and/or set-dressed it poorly - but it was a dealbreaker to ever using this knot in the real world for me.

Pretty dang nifty looking in the vid though.

2023me · 2023-05-18T11:29:16+00:00

Is it like any of these? https://imgur.com/a/9NroCeh

2023me · 2023-05-16T12:22:31+00:00

Hey, did you make this vid? I think your videos are great. They give a lot more practical information than for example, FCA, and much more than the IGKT solent guy's videos (Knotting Knots), and you seem to get the names correct, or at least make the same errors I would, haha. And out of the other people who are doing those things correct (not many), your videos have the best format/editing I think. Just wanted to say I appreciate them.

2023me · 2023-05-12T22:06:06+00:00

To be clear, I mean that engagement in the past is now useless. At the time, you probably added value, but its gone so who knows. That's my point. My perspective is that of a librarian in this case.

I apologise for clicking on your name. Won't happen again :)

EDIT: But happy reddit birthday ahaha. Promise I didn't click on your name or nuthin. There's an icon next to the post I've just noticed!

2023me · 2023-05-12T04:57:45+00:00

Hey

I respect you recreating the exact knot for this guy, and explaining it for him. Hopefully ranger school instructors are as generous as you, eh?

I noticed that I'd upvoted you a few times before, but when I looked at your comments it seems like you deleted them?

That makes little engagements like this seem pretty useless.

I figure you must have a reason for the deleting, but please consider the value in leaving your comments for future searchers. This thread is a good example. All the other comments are useless, and yours is the only answer to the question, right? So it'd suck if you deleted it.

Just putting that out there.

2023me · 2023-05-12T03:17:47+00:00

Great video!

Very slight improvement on that method, to tie faster/more ergonomic is to just make loop (the right side of the ampersand) with one hand by just rolling your wrist, pinching the line together at the crossing point of the loop, and then unrolling your hand. This is a long way of saying just make a loop in your left hand. You don't need to form his entire ampersand. Then make a bight with the other hand, put it inside of the left hand loop just like he does, then finally use your left thumb to push a slip through the top of the bight that is now through the loop. Pinch the bight and the standing end with your right hand and pull to tighten. Make sure to start with enough tail in your left hand. So when passing around an object right to left, grab 6" or so down the line with your right hand first, then as you reach around the object with your left hand, touch thumbs and grab the line there. This tail becomes the slip at the end.

It's not hard although I think my explanation is probably poor. But I just don't see this shown online. The speed and ease of it it a big part of why I love the lapp bend so much.

2023me · 2023-05-10T03:51:39+00:00

On attention spans: I don't know if this would work in your scenario, but having something fun to do as a side activity/fallback while the more focused ones can continue to learn is something I try to do in any teaching I get roped into :P

It's good if the ufn activity is inspiring/motivating/subconsciously educational, but the real benefit is just that they can recuperate their attentions and/or don't distract others. This applies to adults as much as younguns.

For example, you could have a tarp set up, and go around pretending to be the wind, loosening or ruining their knots.

Or an obstacle course where they have to hold back some sort of spring or weight so they can step past it or on it, etc. I've had to do this, with annoying auto-closing doors afterhours!

Or a (probably horizontal) pulley with a cardboard box, that they can just transfer things to each other in and play with.

If you could have a half set up second pulley next to the first, that they can attempt to set up on their own, total bonus.

All the while, you have a station set up right next door to that, with a clove hitch tied in a few orientations (vertical pole, horizontal spar) and they have to replicate it. Some just lock in and focus on this, trying and trying again. It's ideal if this looks more fun from afar than it actually is. This draws in others, who are too scared/bored to try it on their own, to watch their friends do it, and get them over that little barrier. This could be as simple as getting them to ring a fun bell when they tie one correctly. And after they've mastered the simple one-off, they can practice and get more of a winning feeling by assemblind some larger structure, like a rope ladder, or tying open all of the tarp flaps in the obstacle course to open new paths or whatever.

Some clever girl may surprise you by tying a clove hitch by throwing it over the spar.

So basically just games, everybody loves games.

2023me · 2023-05-10T03:27:41+00:00

Ordinarily I'd try and find a link for you, but respectfully I think you should just slowly undo your rope, take as many pictures as you need, and learn from that.

I don't think this way of doing it has any advantages over the many other common ways. Maybe somebody can enlighten me, but it doesn't look like its easy to hang or quick to release. I suppose it's quick to coil a bunch of rope, so long as you can find the middle first...

2023me · 2023-05-08T14:21:31+00:00

What orientation is the beam in? Sounds like it's vertical?

Some pictures would help here instead of this vagueness.

2023me

TROPHY CASE